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My Swing (Zeph) - Page 2

post #19 of 157

Re: My Swing (Zeph)

Originally Posted by jamo View Post
I was just thinking that maybe if he addresses the ball with more forward bend, in an effort to maintain his inclination to the ground and the position of his head he would have to side tilt a little more tham normal.
I see where you're going with it now. It could be that you're on to something. I don't think so, but it could be and it's not completely out of the question.
post #20 of 157

Re: My Swing (Zeph)

His hands seem close to his body at address - based solely on comments I've received on my swing videos - my hands are in a similar position.
post #21 of 157

Re: My Swing (Zeph)

You might benefit from the "left arm only" practice drill -OR- try swinging down with a SOFT right arm (activate it (straighten it) ONLY after impact). It appears to me you are stuck "hitting" at the golf ball, subconsciously re-acting to it. You can see your left arm slow down and your right arm fire through just before impact. Re-training yourself to "swing" through the ball is tough to do regardless of your swing method. Taking your right arm out of the equation eliminates much of your ability to "hit" at the ball. Just keep accelerating through and let centrifugal force do the work.
post #22 of 157
Thread Starter 

Re: My Swing (Zeph)

Originally Posted by iacas View Post
The key, Zeph, is retaining flex in the left knee. The instant that starts losing flex you stop going forward. You can go forward really, really far with a really flexed left knee.

Remember, too, it's not just how far forward but how LONG they continue to go forward.

See how in A the hips continue forward longer? In B they push forward fast and then stall out.
I just have to make sure I don't overflex the knee, which makes my body drop down and I really have to jump to get back up again. I think the knee flex will be there if I manage to move my hips from start to lateral finish in the same space of time as my arms move from the top to impact.

Shorter backswing. You say the hips must continue longer, I say slower, Dave says more leisurely. They get forward, stop and I jump. Charlie got more of the continous move forward until impact. Like you demonstrated in the A/B example. I could also get them forward a bit more.

Upper body must stop pushing forward. I think this has got something to do with my long backswing. The upper body starts moving forward when my arms swing into my body. If I can stop them sooner, and have sort of a stop, where everything starts moving together, it will help.

http://i25.tinypic.com/6nq9ua.jpg

Originally Posted by iacas View Post
A bit more, yes, and for longer. His hips aren't actually too open at impact, which is the weird thing. His hips open at a decent rate - he just loses the forward. Look at the down-the-line view - they're only about 20 to 30 degrees open at impact - well within an acceptable range.
Yeah, down the line it doesn't look too bad. A little more upright, club farther away from my body, keeping the inclination to the ground. P2 could be more in.
FO is where the interesting stuff happens.
post #23 of 157

Re: My Swing (Zeph)

Originally Posted by Zeph View Post
I just have to make sure I don't overflex the knee, which makes my body drop down and I really have to jump to get back up again. I think the knee flex will be there if I manage to move my hips from start to lateral finish in the same space of time as my arms move from the top to impact.
Heine, it's going to involve you swinging your arms down faster instead of letting them get dragged behind you. You need to start using your arm muscles.

We've had this talk several times about your hips. They go forward fast and then stop. They go forward reasonably far but not as far forward as Charlie... and you're a taller guy.

Originally Posted by Zeph View Post
You say the hips must continue longer, I say slower, Dave says more leisurely. They get forward, stop and I jump.
And what you should realize is that Dave and I are saying the same thing. "Slower" will happen naturally as you focus on pushing your hips forward longer. You can't win a marathon by sprinting at the start and then stopping. You need to glide the hips forward constantly - feel as if they're still pushing forward (left knee flexed longer) through impact. Your instinct to jump seems strong enough that you'll probably jump just fine.

It's the same thing. I don't want you to go 100 MPH for one one second, then 0 MPH for the next second - I want 50 MPH continuous for two seconds. That's why Dave and I are saying the same thing.

Originally Posted by Zeph View Post
Charlie got more of the continous move forward until impact. Like you demonstrated in the A/B example. I could also get them forward a bit more.
I'm not worried about how far forward they are - though yes, they can go a bit MORE forward if you want to measure in inches. If you want to measure in degrees, you can still go forward a bit more, yes. But you're close, and the key thing is to focus on the rate here. I just did your evolvr analysis last night and you'll see the same thing - your left knee should continue to drive forward longer, to maintain its flex longer.

You should naturally slow down in order to push forward longer. You can't go 100 MPH for two seconds because you'd fall forward or something. (And I trust that you know I'm using 100 MPH simply as an example - it's not a clubhead speed measurement or anything like that.)

Originally Posted by Zeph View Post
Upper body must stop pushing forward. I think this has got something to do with my long backswing. The upper body starts moving forward when my arms swing into my body. If I can stop them sooner, and have sort of a stop, where everything starts moving together, it will help.
Eh, maybe. The shorter backswing will help a few things regardless, but I don't think it's that. I think you just apply little force through your arms. You don't really release your #4 accumulator and that's the first one that's supposed to be released - 4, 1, 2, 3. At some point Heine you're going to need to actually pull your left arm across your chest. That's the next step if you can get the hip thing down, but it's tied into the hips pushing forward longer too.

Work on the stuff in your evolvr. It's three things with the fourth being what I just mentioned and the first two being relatively easy (I think) for you:

1) no side tilting (the feeling for you might work so you don't overdo it)
2) straight right arm (no overflexing)
3) hips/left knee forward longer (which will slow them down too, yes, so you start jumping much later)
4) left arm across your chest faster (you should probably wait to play with this, but this is the next step if you can do 1-3)
post #24 of 157
Thread Starter 

Re: My Swing (Zeph)

I swung a lot with my arms before, combined with arms going out and looping even more out, coming over the top. So I started keeping them quiet. This was when I first started reading into teaching and using video. I read that the arms should not swing, but just tag along with the lower body. That's pretty much what I worked on a long time ago. I'm sure getting the left arm speeding up will help, the angles you drew clearly showed that the arms have to use thrust to get across the chest. I'll leave that one until I get work done on 1-3.

Using the left knee as a reference instead of the hips is a good thing. I have tried different feelings before, and focusing on the knees has proved the best results. Though I didn't follow them for too long back then, which I will now.
post #25 of 157

Re: My Swing (Zeph)

Originally Posted by Zeph View Post
I'll leave that one until I get work done on 1-3.
OK. They are related, of course, but if you can get the hips (via the knee as you said) working a bit better then the arms should improve a little bit.

Originally Posted by Zeph View Post
Using the left knee as a reference instead of the hips is a good thing. I have tried different feelings before, and focusing on the knees has proved the best results. Though I didn't follow them for too long back then, which I will now.
Good. FWIW I talked to Dave too today and he's in agreement with the plan laid out for you. Good luck and we look forward to seeing your progress. If you want to keep posting your videos here as you post them to evolvr as well, that's cool.
post #26 of 157
Thread Starter 

Re: My Swing (Zeph)

Had a practice session at the range today where I tried getting the hands in front of the ball at impact, forward leaning shaft and all that. I get it to some degree, but the ultimate problem remains to be my lower body, which is at P9 (finish) when the club is at P7 (impact). I've got some work to do on speeding up the arms too, but the lower body really has to change first before I can start doing some useful work there. I know the arms are not the biggest problem, but did this session to get to this point really, just to get it out of my head.

How to fix it will be a challenge, biggest one so far. I'm not worried about clubhead throwaway and the flying wedge at this moment, once I get the lower body sorted out, it will be a lot easier to work on those things. I've got instruction from Erik on how to do it, or at least how to try doing it. Theory to practice is not as easy as I'd like it to be. I will be bringing my camera when working on it, so I can review it after. Makes it easier to have a video to look at to see what is really going on and if things are moving in the right direction.

Feel is not real they say, so I might have to exaggerate things. The right heel will be of some importance in this process. Mine is always off the ground before impact since my hips have gone too far up and around. As long as the right heel is on the ground, it is almost impossible to get into P9. It will roll in towards the left foot, that's what is supposed to happen, but not lift off the ground before impact. Also the left knee, as Erik has pointed out, staying flexed longer. Those two are interrelated too. There is no way for me to straighten the left knee with the right heel on the ground, except doing a reverse pivot.

My head also needs some attention, it keeps moving forward too much.

So sum up: I'm doing too much before impact, things that should not happen before after impact. Right heel off the ground, left knee straighten, hips opening.
post #27 of 157

Re: My Swing (Zeph)

I will also point this out, Zeph - make incredibly short backswings with your arms (try to feel like neither arm bends, even the right) and see if you can't pull those down (left arm across the chest). If the arms don't go back as far, they can get down sooner. See what those swings look like at P7.

Then take swings with that in mind where you don't do anything with the lower body. It'll feel like an arm swing. Try to hit P9 still closed to the target with your hips and arms. Totally awkward, but just see what the pictures look like at 7...
post #28 of 157

Re: My Swing (Zeph)

Great thread here. My head dip is about 10X worse. You've really done a good job to control that better. OK, looks like I've got to read through this thread quite a bit here.

Edit:

Originally Posted by iacas View Post
Zeph is side tilting a bit too much yes. His shoulders get incredibly steep. Zeph, ease up on the side tilting.
I really need to work on this.
post #29 of 157
Thread Starter 

Re: My Swing (Zeph)

Recorded a new video the other day. Working on slowing down my hips, preventing them from spinning out. My swing thought is to keep the right foot on the ground as long as possible before impact. On the video I'm keeping it there all the way to pronounce it, but it's coming along better now to where I can keep it grounded at impact, then follow through as normal.

This will help me get the left knee working more forward too, since I'll stay better balanced and in sync at impact.

I still hit it fat though, because of the clubhead throwaway. I'll get that fixed eventually. All in all, I'm pleased with the work on the hips now. I feel better balanced and have gained some distance. Still got to release #1 and #4 more, which will give me more lag and more clubhead speed, even more distance.

I have a problem with pulling, but I'm concious about it and working on the problem. I hit it very straight at the moment, when I don't hit it fat. Eliminating those fat shots will make a very noticable impact on my scoring. I played a tournament yesterday where I hit some of the best shots I've ever done. I hit the ball great on the range, but on the course, my course mentality kicked in and caused me to fat it now and then. Just got to get working on it some more, then get the clubhead throwaway fixed.



You can see how I lose the flying wedge and turn the clubhead over through the ball.



Hands too far back at impact. I've also drawn some shoulder lines to show how they have released #1 better. When I swing the club without a ball, trying to release #1 and not flipping, the club touch the ground in front of my left foot and bottom out more forward. Put a ball there and the bottom moves back a lot.
post #30 of 157

Re: My Swing (Zeph)

looks pretty good... very low swing plane tho, try not to come so far to the inside with your backswing...thats a reason to have to compensate with your hands. your lower body looks good tho (even tho im not a SandTer myself).
post #31 of 157
Thread Starter 

Re: My Swing (Zeph)

The clubhead gets a bit inside there, it's supposed to be more like this one: Video DTL
I've done some work on it, but my old habits tend to sneek back in if I don't watch it for a while.

That word (SandTer) made me notice something funny.

The Sand Trap - word jumble - The S and T rap - The S&T Rap
post #32 of 157
Thread Starter 

Re: My Swing (Zeph)

Little update on what I'm working on and how it is going. Most of this is stuff I've been told to try out by Golf Evolution through my Evolvr account.

Goal: Better impact positions, hands more forward, shaft leaning forward.

Swing The Hands Down Fast

It's pretty simple, you want the hands to get from the top of the backswing to somewhere at or in front of the ball as fast as possible, feeling like the clubhead is still above the waist. Drive the butt of the club towards the ball. This drill is one I'm always keeping in mind, as it is important for me to speed up the arms. I used the arms a lot before with my OTT swing, so I started holding them back, now I'm speeding them up again. This time on a better plane.

This drill works, but a problem is that I just flip it faster when I swing the arms faster.



Get The Hands In Front

Very similar to the last drill. The red line on the picture is where I could put a stick in the ground as a visual reference point to where I want my hands to get before impact. I don't want to look at the stick, but have it in my vision.

This drill is one that have proved some results, but the hands still flip too fast.



The Impact Bag Drill

Put the bag two feet or something behind the ball, avoid hitting it when swinging. I like the theory of this drill, but I have a hard time making it work. Finding a good place to put the bag, and which height it should be is not too easy always. I also started moving my upper body forward to avoid the bag when doing this drill. Some shots turned out fine, but in the end, I ended up hitting a lot of them thin. I also started timing (subconsiously) the flip perfect, combined with the head moving forward, I still hit it fat.



Swing Low

Hit the ball low, keep the arms low. Yellow lines indicate high hands and high launch angle, red lines indicate the mental line I want to get them at. I will of course not get the hands on a different plane line in the picture, it's just an exaggeration for how to feel it. Imagining there is a low table I have to get my hands or clubhead under. I hit my punch shots very good, which is very similar to this drill. The results with this drill are usually good. I've been hitting a lot on a simulator, which tells me the exact launch angle, so tracking the progress is easy. I can usually tell by the launch angle somewhat accurately how much I've flipped.



Pressure Point 1

Drive PP1 all the way from the top of the backswing. Results are very scattered, I get handsy, hold off the wrists or roll them over. Using these PP's also puts my focus on the hands, which often leads to flipping more.
Will probably work better with a shorter backswing.



Pressure Point 3

Drive PP3 all the way from the top of the backswing. Similar results to PP1 really, perhaps slightly better control of the clubface. Still roll the clubface over a lot and pull-hook it when trying this.



Add Lag On Downswing

Imagine Steve Stricker, folding the right wrist late, then Sergio Garcia, adding lag on the downswing. Red lines is Sergio at the top, yellow lines are at P5. Shows how he adds lag and lessen the angle between the lead arm and shaft on the downswing.

I'm not a fan, I ended up hitting the ball fat and thin, also messing up the clubface angle, sending the ball in all directions. It felt hard to control and not very consistent. I still flipped it.



Aiming Point Drill

Look somes inches in front of the ball when swinging. I've done this some times a long time ago, and the contact felt wonderful, didn't record anything back then. Today I can hit some good shots this way, but not having the ball in the center of my vision mess stuff up more than it does help. I'm trying to build muscle memory, and if I have to swing with my eyes looking forward for some months, other stuff will get wacky. I do look just ahead of the ball from time to time, sometimes when chipping.

It works pretty good, but I'm not comfortable with it. The contact is also sometimes not good.



Shorter Backswing

Shorten the backswing, primarily the arms. I've shortened my backswing some these last months, but would like it shorter still. I think this is a key point for me. Like I mentioned earlier, I hit punch shots great. A lot of it is because I have a shorter backswing. It feels very short to me, but when I recorded a swing once, it turned out the punch shoot feeling was how I would like my full swing to look.

I'm trying to feel that my backswing stops when the shoulders stop, preferably making the shoulders stop a bit sooner too. Really taking what feels like punch shots to me. Working on this is what have given the best results so far. I'm hitting the ball better, as far as I want to, and more comfortable. I don't tilt my upper body forward as much, or spin the hips as much. It feels like a more controlled swing and more comfortable.

I still have to combine this drill with swinging the arms faster. When I get it right, I can hit the ball the distance I want with what feels like less than 100% swing, more like 90%.

Picture shows where I want to be at the top of my backswing, red lines show where I'm really at. Leading hand and shoulder angle.



If you wonder what some of the acronyms mean, look here: http://thesandtrap.com/forum/entries/61-The-Big-List

So sum up, I've tried a lot of things, what I'm pursuing now is a shorter backswing and faster hands. Not thinking at all about lag, flying wedge, flat left wrist and all that stuff.
post #33 of 157

Re: My Swing (Zeph)

Imagine Steve Stricker, folding the right wrist late, then Sergio Garcia, adding lag on the downswing. Red lines is Sergio at the top, yellow lines are at P5. Shows how he adds lag and lessen the angle between the lead arm and shaft on the downswing.

I'm not a fan, I ended up hitting the ball fat and thin, also messing up the clubface angle, sending the ball in all directions. It felt hard to control and not very consistent. I still flipped it.
You cant just add lag ad infinitum, you have to use the proper amount you are able to control, otherwise as you said, you will be all over the place, not just left or right but also behind or infront. The more lag you want to bring down, the more strength you need.
post #34 of 157

Re: My Swing (Zeph)

Woah, essay! Nice post! Been working on exactly the same stuff this weekend and made progress with practicing segments of the swing isolated (like the O'Hair wrist ache move or the Wi-P7-Tothebodygluedbendelbow or the no-overswing-backswing). Went with repetitions in front of a mirror. Works.

I am not sure that fast hands are the major "clue". I think P6 to P7 must be right before speeding up the hands - bend right elbow that stretches through P7 is my first prio. When "just" speeding up, I loose a couple of angles here and there.

Zeph, thanks for your posts here - they helped me a lot! Love your ball flight sheet and the wrist hinge/cock illustrations. You should link to them in your footer!
post #35 of 157
Thread Starter 

Re: My Swing (Zeph)

Originally Posted by kafka01 View Post
You cant just add lag ad infinitum, you have to use the proper amount you are able to control, otherwise as you said, you will be all over the place, not just left or right but also behind or infront. The more lag you want to bring down, the more strength you need.
Who says I was trying to add lag to infinity? The purpose of adding lag on the way down was to get the club moving the other way, instead of reaching the peak of the wrist hinge at the top, and from there start flipping.

Kinda like float loading, which I've also tried, but with similar results to the adding lag stuff I already mentioned.
post #36 of 157

Re: My Swing (Zeph)

That was only a "phrase" (but when you say you hit them all over the place you most likely overdid it), and i also understand what you are saying and trying to achieve regarding float loading. One important thing with float loading imo is finding the correct grip pressure. If you grip to tight (you can grip tight and still hit it well) your wrists wont be able to hinge properly on the downswing. When you grip to loosley it is easy to float load, but then it becomes a thing of controlling the club and clubface into impact and you might just overdo it again.

This drill works, but a problem is that I just flip it faster when I swing the arms faster.
When you want your arms to go faster you also have to pivot faster - first to get the lower body out of the way and secondly to have right arm bend (bending) left into impact. If that doesnt happen - flip. Look at the picture above how his right arm is flexed at impact, when you look at your video you dont have much flex left in it, now assume that your pivot at impact is a bit more advanced with the same arm position and you will have more flex left.
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