How hard are tour courses?

sPinHigh · October 14, 2006

A friend claims that a former pro player commenting on one of the recent golf events was asked how hard the tour-prepared courses would be for "normal" players, and that he replied:

"A scratch player would probably not break 90 if it is a 'tough' tour course setup for a tour tournament"

This sounds ridiculous to me; I thought the difference might be 5-10 strokes so maybe a bit pressed to break 80, but not breaking 90. Unbelievable. Any comments?

**Madriver** · October 14, 2006

ask the guys that played Bethpage Black after the open.

For me, I have played Avenel (former Kemper Open) after the tourney. While I stuggle to break 90 anytime, the biggest difference I see with the Tourney course and any other is the length. The pro tees are soooooooo far back. So yes, for me I can see it based strickley on the added length. Also, Avenel is not known as a praticuarly hard track, but with the tees at the tips I think a scratch golfer would have a tough time.

**jamesduncan** · October 14, 2006

black is my home course.

whilest i cant speak about after the 2002 open i can speak about this years NY State Open set up.

The rough was grown in to 4 inches (remember the US open is around 7) and it was basically impossible to hit your ball..basically miss a fairway and youre chipping back out.

most rounds took about and extra 30-45 minute because most people simply couldnt find there ball, literally even 5 ft from the fairway.

the other main difference was that the fairways and greeens werent probably as dried out for the state open as on a tour event. this is such an under rated factor that people not inside the ropes dont usually take into account.

a win on a PGA course set up. (ie: hard as hell) is very commendable, regardless of the field.

**Madriver** · October 14, 2006

black is my home course.

...so did you play that setup...and if so...whaddda shoot?

**jamesduncan** · October 14, 2006

yep i did. play was allowed right up until the day of the state open (mon)

76 was my last round before the course was closed (sun)

**Madriver** · October 14, 2006

yep i did. play was allowed right up until the day of the state open (mon)

kudos...you should have competed in the open.! Yardage as compared to the US Open?

**jamesduncan** · October 14, 2006

thanks much! but that was from the white tees lol

the blues for events like that are usually put on the open tees so im assuming the ny state open guys played the us open length (there were some impressive scores btw)

regular days theyre (blues) a tee box up. (next season ill be splitting my rounds between the blue and whites tho..i had a deal with myself to be regularly breaking 80 before i went back)

again, i dont think it was a fair comparison to the 2002 open set up wise tho as the fairways and greens were still being regularly watered during the weeks leading up to the state open this year.

**Jarno** · October 16, 2006

I played at our sister club after the Nationwide came there, Henrico County Open, and the rough was literally anywhere from 4-6 and brutally thick! I shoot usually on a great day 83-85, but I didn't break 90. It was extremely hard for average golfer, for weeks after the tourney.

On another note, one of our members snapped a tendon in his left wrist hitting (or attempting to hit) a 5-iron out of the rough on a par 5.

**allin** · October 16, 2006

I haven't played a PGA event, but one year after the local nationwide tour event I played the course used on Monday. This is one of the easier courses they use. Winners usually around 20 under, unless there is wind. I shot 102 from the tournament tees. I ususally shoot high 80s. Since I normally don't play back tees and extra 14 strokes didn't seem to bad. I was forced to lay up on several of the par 4s and there was one par 3 I couldn't reach without driver so I laid up on that one also. I would guess a scratch golfer would shoot around 80.

***iacas*** · October 16, 2006

Dave (Koster) and I, a scratch and a 4-ish handicap, both played the Peak 'n Peek course, home to a Nationwide Tour event, with Nationwide Tour setup (albeit slightly slower greens) from the tournament tees. I shot +4 (and was +4 after the first three holes). He shot +1. We both left SEVERAL putts just a hair short (and we both putt well on fast greens).

But me playing at the home of The Memorial (Muirfield Village?) the week of a PGA Tour event? I'd break 90 consistently, but not every time. And if my goal was to break 90, I could just about every time - by playing the long par 4s as par 5s (making the occasional "birdie" for par), etc.

**NM Golf** · October 16, 2006

Mind you that there is a difference between regular tour courses and the set ups at the Majors. I have played on one tour course, Magnolia at Disney world, and from the back tees I shot 81 and that was a while ago when I was a 6 handicap. The biggest reason why IMHO tour courses give amateurs fits is the length. The average am plays his home course at a comfortable length then goes to a tour course and all of a sudden they are hitting 3 woods into par 4's. You cannot hit long irons into par 4's and hope to score well.

**Rafcin** · October 16, 2006

twice I had a chance to play on a course on Monday, after sunday's finish of the Senior PGA event. Note it wasn't "the" PGA event... and I tell you - it's nuts. Playing "golfer-friendly" semi-privates and resort courses before I never understood why the commentators keep repeating "he(she) HAS TO hit the fairway"... It's really not that hard to play out of rough, isn't ? After I played the Ridgewood CC (New Jersey) day after Senior US Open - I changed my mind Friend of mine who played with me ignored advice from caddy, (who said to use a sand wedge and hack the ball out of the rough) tried to put a full swing on a ball with 5i... result? Pulled (and ripped) a muscle somewhere around his rib cage It's simply sick. Rough was about 4-5" deep and grass was on sterioids - as thick as a finger. Greens (not cut that morning!) were like glass, I'm sure they're still in the 14-15 range of the stimp, even after 24hrs since last cut. TPC @ Tampa, where I played monday after "regular" Senior Tour event was not less challanging. Greens were just as slick, rough was just as tough. These were Senior Tour conditions... add another 1000yds to this setup and you'll get an idea, what "real" Tour course is.
I think on a scale from 1 to 10 - we play day-to-day on #3, they play on #9-10....

**jamesduncan** · October 16, 2006

Yeah agreed

And even if we play the course close to a tourment, the greens crew has has a chance to probably give the course "some" watering.

Remmebr the fairways are a hard as the greens for most of these event, so even well hit drives, if not properly judged, will hit and roll into the rough.

Birdiemachine22 · October 17, 2006

Here is a pretty funny article about Ray Ramano trying to break 100 at Augusta from the tips the monday after the masters, and he is like a 15 so a scratch should be able to easily break 90.

http://www.golfdigest.com/features/i...604romano.html

Here is another about a 4 that thought he could break 80 at Augusta.

http://www.golfdigest.com/features/i...4handicap.html

**jamesduncan** · October 17, 2006

but again, the quote says "tough set up"

i think a good indicator of what its like for someone to score at augusta is George Zahringer's rounds of 82 85 in the 2003 Masters. Thurs and Fri Set ups..deff not the weekend.

George Zahringer won the 2002 Mid Am, is a + handicap player and is someone probably most of us can "relate" to..well atleast age/experience wise...not some "young gun". Hope that makes sense.

**Rafcin** · October 17, 2006

Here is a pretty funny article about Ray Ramano trying to break 100 at Augusta from the tips the monday after the masters, and he is like a 15 so a scratch should be able to easily break 90.

hm... The article tells you that first time he got to play there in 2000... the break 100 round happend "... Last year..." and I think I've seen 2006 in the credits on the bottom. I think if you play a course 5 times it will save you good 10 strokes...

and one more thing - if a 17hcp did things Ray describes doing during this round - I better be not betting him money this round or he'd end up having my driver up his you-know-what

***iacas*** · October 18, 2006

i think a good indicator of what its like for someone to score at augusta is George Zahringer's rounds of 82 85 in the 2003 Masters. Thurs and Fri Set ups..deff not the weekend.

Small quibble: like most tournaments (including the U.S. Open), the pins on Thurs/Fri at the Masters are about as hard as the weekend pins. They shoot for 45 or whatever, with pins rated 1 through 4 (thus 2.5 being average).

The Masters "Sunday Pins" aren't much tougher, if at all, than their Thursday pins, IMHO, and I know other majors, particularly the U.S. Open, tries very hard to make them virtually equal in difficulty each of the four days.

**jamesduncan** · October 23, 2006

Small quibble: like most tournaments (including the U.S. Open), the pins on Thurs/Fri at the Masters are about as hard as the weekend pins. They shoot for 45 or whatever, with pins rated 1 through 4 (thus 2.5 being average).

2006 Winged Foot set up 3rd hole - 243 yard par 3 (sat only) 12 hole 620 par 5 (Sat only) Pins placements are only one way to set up a course.

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How hard are tour courses?

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