Quote:
Originally Posted by
Harmonious 
Since their face is open to the path at impact, they have to swing out-to-in just to keep the ball in play.
This is a two-part answer:
Part 1
That's backwards from a physics standpoint
The fact that they're swinging left is what's causing the face to be open to the path. You can play good golf with a clubface pointing left or right of the target at impact (typically within about 3 degrees). Most slicers have a clubface pointing at or LEFT of the target at impact - their swing path being WAY left is what causes the face to be "open" relative to the path.
Remember, "face open to the path" depends on both the face and the path. I can point my clubface anywhere and give you a path that makes the face "open" or "closed" (to that path).
Part 2
While it may be backwards, I think it's natural in a way to see the ball curving right and to "feel" as if you have to swing farther left to "pull" the ball more. Heck, even the word "pull" and "push" seems more like a "path" idea than a face-dominant one. So I agree that slicers see the ball curving left and some will try to compensate by aiming farther left (which can sometimes work - because some golfers will swing out at the ball more because the fairway is to their right) or will just swing farther left to try to "pull" the ball more.
Of course, it's 100% ineffective since face governs start line, and by swinging left more the face is MORE open to the path if it remains the same... but that's just part 1 - the true physics and reality of what's happening. To many, I agree it's unnatural to swing right to make the ball stop curving right, but these people rarely think about the curve - they're thinking about start lines and finish positions, and that's what's unnatural. (* Note)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Harmonious Fixing the clubface problem first, as I interpret Paul's video, will begin with the student feeling what squaring the clubface feels like. As shown in his video, the first exaggerated attempts result in nasty pull hooks, with the ball going from left to further left.
Not necessarily. If a slicer (face -2, path -8) keeps his path the same but moves the face to -5 but keeps the path the same, he can hit playable (too low and too large a curve for most to play "great" golf, but at least they're near the fairway) pull-fades. If he somehow rolls his hands to -8 with the same path, he's hitting straight pulls.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Harmonious Fixing the swingpath first, as I interpret your and MvMac's approach, will begin with the student feeling what an in-to-out swingpath feels like. It seems most likely your student's first attempts will be nasty push-slices, with the ball going from right to further right.
That would be true if the clubface "rotated" in a 1:1 relationship with the path. In other words, if we took that -2/-8 guy and moved his path to +3 (a change of 11), then what you said would be true if his face moved the same amount: 11 degrees, from -2 to +9.
But that doesn't happen. Moving someone's path tends to automatically make their clubface go along with it a little, but it's nowhere near 1:1 and seems to settle in at 0.25:1, and only then for the people who have to move the face a lot. In others it doesn't change the face at all.
So though "it seems most likely" to you, I can say, definitively, that it simply doesn't happen. We fix the path, and within three or four balls, they're drawing the golf ball, with no intermediate "push-slice" phase.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Harmonious Then each of you get the student to work on the 2nd phase of the problem. Two ways to skin a cat, both would seem to work equally well, assuming your student can ingrain his new feelings.
That would be true if your assumption about what is "most likely" to happen was correct. It is not, which is why I've said what I said in this thread and others about how we prefer to fix the path first as a one-step solution rather than some intermediate "low pulls and pull-hooks" phase.
* Note (Click to show)
As I said, most people see a ball curving right and try to fix that by swinging left more. That's because they have the concept of what causes a ball to start in a certain direction backwards.
I think it's pretty normal and pretty natural to realize that swinging in one direction makes the ball spin (or curve) the other direction. It's true in all ball sports - I swing up on a tennis ball to make the ball dive to the ground (topspin), I swing left with a ping pong paddle to make the ball curve right. I swing my leg to the right to make the soccer ball curve left.
Where people go wrong is that they see the ball missing right, and they ignore the CURVE, and simply try to play that slice by starting the ball farther left. So what "feels" like the right solution to most people - to swing to the left more - is the worst thing they can do. That just sends the path farther left. If they're lucky the face goes left too, and they hit a pull-slice that's playable. Most aren't lucky (because the face doesn't rotate with the path).
To be clear, the "fix the face first" instructors have this process. They've said this in their own words.
- Student is hitting pull slices. They fix the face so the student is hitting pulls instead.
- Now that the face is square to the path (a pull), they rotate the path to the right (while the face rotates 1:1, somehow) so the student is hitting the ball straight.
Now, why the face and path are 1:1 in step 2 but not in step 1 is beyond me, but that's fine. Two steps to cure your slice! Great! Sign everyone up, right?!?!
Except this is what Mike and I will often do, and again, well before the student's hit half of a small bucket of golf balls:
- Rotate the path to the right. See how much that affects the student's face angle, and typically make a setup or a grip change so that they can deliver the face in a position that works with their path and preferred shot shape (pull fade, push fade, push draw, whatever - all playable shots).
That's it.
You can ask Dave - I still call it "the cheater lesson" because it takes almost no time and is the easiest thing in the world to do.
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