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"Swing Machine Golf" by Paul Wilson - Page 4

post #55 of 150

Iacas,

 

Because you are working on the spin first.  Then the direction.  Fix one thing then work on the other.  Fixing the spin can take 2 mins or two weeks it just depends how fast the person gets it.  Once this is fixed you work on the body to fix the direction.
 

post #56 of 150

jd924,

 

I am well aware of the new ball flight laws versus the old. 

 

My slice sure works exceptionally well with my record being 1 minute 56 seconds from the time I shook the person's hand.  I am not talking about a pull hook either.  The person was hitting a perfect draw from square alignment.  Oh I also shot a cure your slice session in my virtual golf school.  Out of 9 people (who I never met) the fastest I cured a slice in was 2 minutes and 3 seconds and the longest was 13 min.  Again,  perfect draws or straight shots from square alignment.  All on video.

 

I think I will keep doing what I am doing.
 

post #57 of 150
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pwgolfpro View Post

Because you are working on the spin first.  Then the direction.  Fix one thing then work on the other.  Fixing the spin can take 2 mins or two weeks it just depends how fast the person gets it.  Once this is fixed you work on the body to fix the direction.

 

I've never fixed a golfer's slice (something I can fix within a few swings - it's one of the easiest lessons in the world to give) by having them "swing over the top" more. That doesn't make any sense. The farther they swing "over the top" the more left they're going to swing and if their clubface is pointing anywhere near the target the bigger their slice.

 

Please be specific the next time you post about this.

 

P.S. 99% of golfers slice because their path stinks. 99%+ of golfers who slice start the ball LEFT of the target, so their clubface is not an issue. Moving their swing path more to the right straightens out their ball flight or even leads to a draw.

post #58 of 150

iacas,

 

I was replying to someone who watched my cure your slice videos on youtube.  He said he tried it and was coming over the top.  I was explaining to him why this was.

post #59 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by pwgolfpro View Post

You should be swinging over the top if you are working on the first part of curing your slice.  In doing so you are just working on turning your wrists over way sooner than you ever have before.  Think about it.  If you are slicing it the face is open.  I want it closed.  If you are closing it you are no longer a slicer.  To do this you roll it from the top for a while until you are consistently hooking it.  Once you can do this you switch your focus to the lower body to initiate the downswing.  Once you do the club will swing on plane and you will be hitting it dead straight.

 

 

Paul, what do you mean by "the face is open"?  Wouldn't closing the face just start the ball more to the left?  

post #60 of 150
Hi Mr. Wilson.....I just read the comments in this thread and I definitely have some questions. I'm stepping out to dinner now but I will post my questions to you tonite.......
post #61 of 150

MVMAC,

 

The logic is this:

 

If you are slicing the ball the face is open to the path.  I want the person to first get the face closed to the path.  I do so by getting them to manually roll the wrists over as soon as they start the downswing.  This is because from the top of the swing to impact is approx. 1/4 of a second.  If you try to get the person to roll the wrists closer to impact you may get the person to square they face but it will not hook (they will hit it straight left which is not enough).  This is very important that the person hooks the ball because a few minutes after they hook the ball you are going to take their mind off rolling the wrists.  If you do and they are not rolling it over enough they will go back to slicing it again. 

 

If you get them to overdo the roll over they get used to the feeling of rolling the wrists very quickly and can still do it even without thinking about it whereas in the past the face is always open.

 

Now once they can hook about 10 shots or so in a row I then change the thought to the body rotation.  If the person turns their body before the club starts moving down the club (mass) will flatten towards 90 degrees to the axis (body).  This is simple physics.  If you turn an axis mass will swing at 90 degrees 100% of the time. 

 

If they to rotate the lower body first the upper body will tilt back thus creating path from the inside.  Couple this with the wrists that are not releasing and the shot is dead straight of drawing slightly from a square alignment.

 

Here is the first video explaining it:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4vz9q0wff0

 

NOTE:

 

For the Bashers out there:

 

Before you bash my method maybe you should come and watch me in action or know something about what I teach and how I teach it.  The invitation is there.  Or read some of the comments from 10's of thousands of people who I have helped on some of the sites I have posted video tips on.  It's funny but you try to help people and inevitably you get people out there who (have not taught thousands of lessons or helped 10's of thousands of people) bashing you. 
 

post #62 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by pwgolfpro View Post

MVMAC,

 

The logic is this:

 

If you are slicing the ball the face is open to the path.  I want the person to first get the face closed to the path.  I do so by getting them to manually roll the wrists over as soon as they start the downswing.  This is because from the top of the swing to impact is approx. 1/4 of a second.  If you try to get the person to roll the wrists closer to impact you may get the person to square they face but it will not hook (they will hit it straight left which is not enough).  This is very important that the person hooks the ball because a few minutes after they hook the ball you are going to take their mind off rolling the wrists.  If you do and they are not rolling it over enough they will go back to slicing it again. 

 

 

 

Thanks Paul, any reason you wouldn't get them to adjust the path first?  To me that would seem easier than manipulating the face.  

post #63 of 150
Mr. Wilson, I would like to accept your invitation to watch you teach in action. Is that ok with you?
post #64 of 150

MVMAC,

 

Yes, the reason is the going that way creates an extra step.  When you have someone roll the wrists early they will come over the top.  If you cure the path first then they come over the top you have to fix the path again.  So you fix the spin first then the path second.

 

All the best,
 

post #65 of 150

TrackmanMaestro,

 

It is winter here right now so lessons are spotty.  Once it gets into March I should be in full swing.  Just shoot me an email.  You will find this on my website: http://www.paulwilsongolf.com/ so we can make arrangements.  I am at Bear's Best Las Vegas.

post #66 of 150
Paul, I'm in Vegas too. I can swing by anytime...... do you happen to own Trackman or Flightscope?
post #67 of 150
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pwgolfpro View Post

It's funny but you try to help people and inevitably you get people out there who (have not taught thousands of lessons or helped 10's of thousands of people) bashing you.

 

We have taught lessons. I'm Director of Instructor Development for 5 Simple Keys® and Mike's the Co-Director of Instruction for 5SK in San Diego.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by pwgolfpro View Post

Yes, the reason is the going that way creates an extra step.  When you have someone roll the wrists early they will come over the top.  If you cure the path first then they come over the top you have to fix the path again.  So you fix the spin first then the path second.

 

We've had a lot of success fixing the path and then not having to do anything else after that.

 

If someone's delivering the club with a face at -2 (two degrees left of the target) and the path at -6, it's been relatively easy for us (a few swings) to have them change their setup to allow the face to point right (+1 or +2 or so) and then get the path to +3 or +4 or so.

 

One step, one fix.

post #68 of 150

Sounds to me that EITHER of the approaches will work. Whether it takes one minute or two swings is immaterial.  What matters is whether the student will be able to take the "Fix" forward the following day, week or year.

post #69 of 150
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harmonious View Post

Sounds to me that EITHER of the approaches will work. Whether it takes one minute or two swings is immaterial.  What matters is whether the student will be able to take the "Fix" forward the following day, week or year.

 

Possibly. I've simply never understood the intermediate step of worm-high pulls and pull-hooks as a way of fixing a golfer's slice.

post #70 of 150

I'm no golf instructor, but I've seen plenty of slice swings from godawful players. The two things they don't do are: 1) square the clubface to the path (it's open), and 2) have a good swingpath (it's out-to-in). Since their face is open to the path at impact, they have to swing out-to-in just to keep the ball in play.

 

Fixing the clubface problem first, as I interpret Paul's video, will begin with the student feeling what squaring the clubface feels like. As shown in his video, the first exaggerated attempts result in nasty pull hooks, with the ball going from left to further left. 

 

Fixing the swingpath first, as I interpret your and MvMac's approach, will begin with the student feeling what an in-to-out swingpath feels like. It seems most likely your student's first attempts will be nasty push-slices, with the ball going from right to further right.

 

Then each of you get the student to work on the 2nd phase of the problem. Two ways to skin a cat, both would seem to work equally well, assuming your student can ingrain his new feelings.

post #71 of 150
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harmonious View Post

Since their face is open to the path at impact, they have to swing out-to-in just to keep the ball in play.

 

This is a two-part answer:

 

Part 1

That's backwards from a physics standpoint

 

The fact that they're swinging left is what's causing the face to be open to the path. You can play good golf with a clubface pointing left or right of the target at impact (typically within about 3 degrees). Most slicers have a clubface pointing at or LEFT of the target at impact - their swing path being WAY left is what causes the face to be "open" relative to the path.

 

Remember, "face open to the path" depends on both the face and the path. I can point my clubface anywhere and give you a path that makes the face "open" or "closed" (to that path).

 

Part 2

While it may be backwards, I think it's natural in a way to see the ball curving right and to "feel" as if you have to swing farther left to "pull" the ball more. Heck, even the word "pull" and "push" seems more like a "path" idea than a face-dominant one. So I agree that slicers see the ball curving left and some will try to compensate by aiming farther left (which can sometimes work - because some golfers will swing out at the ball more because the fairway is to their right) or will just swing farther left to try to "pull" the ball more.

 

Of course, it's 100% ineffective since face governs start line, and by swinging left more the face is MORE open to the path if it remains the same... but that's just part 1 - the true physics and reality of what's happening. To many, I agree it's unnatural to swing right to make the ball stop curving right, but these people rarely think about the curve - they're thinking about start lines and finish positions, and that's what's unnatural. (* Note)

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harmonious View Post

Fixing the clubface problem first, as I interpret Paul's video, will begin with the student feeling what squaring the clubface feels like. As shown in his video, the first exaggerated attempts result in nasty pull hooks, with the ball going from left to further left.

 

Not necessarily. If a slicer (face -2, path -8) keeps his path the same but moves the face to -5 but keeps the path the same, he can hit playable (too low and too large a curve for most to play "great" golf, but at least they're near the fairway) pull-fades. If he somehow rolls his hands to -8 with the same path, he's hitting straight pulls.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harmonious View Post

Fixing the swingpath first, as I interpret your and MvMac's approach, will begin with the student feeling what an in-to-out swingpath feels like. It seems most likely your student's first attempts will be nasty push-slices, with the ball going from right to further right.

 

That would be true if the clubface "rotated" in a 1:1 relationship with the path. In other words, if we took that -2/-8 guy and moved his path to +3 (a change of 11), then what you said would be true if his face moved the same amount: 11 degrees, from -2 to +9.

 

But that doesn't happen. Moving someone's path tends to automatically make their clubface go along with it a little, but it's nowhere near 1:1 and seems to settle in at 0.25:1, and only then for the people who have to move the face a lot. In others it doesn't change the face at all.

 

So though "it seems most likely" to you, I can say, definitively, that it simply doesn't happen. We fix the path, and within three or four balls, they're drawing the golf ball, with no intermediate "push-slice" phase.

 


Quote:
Originally Posted by Harmonious View Post

Then each of you get the student to work on the 2nd phase of the problem. Two ways to skin a cat, both would seem to work equally well, assuming your student can ingrain his new feelings.

 

That would be true if your assumption about what is "most likely" to happen was correct. It is not, which is why I've said what I said in this thread and others about how we prefer to fix the path first as a one-step solution rather than some intermediate "low pulls and pull-hooks" phase.

 


 

* Note (Click to show)

As I said, most people see a ball curving right and try to fix that by swinging left more. That's because they have the concept of what causes a ball to start in a certain direction backwards.

 
I think it's pretty normal and pretty natural to realize that swinging in one direction makes the ball spin (or curve) the other direction. It's true in all ball sports - I swing up on a tennis ball to make the ball dive to the ground (topspin), I swing left with a ping pong paddle to make the ball curve right. I swing my leg to the right to make the soccer ball curve left.
 
Where people go wrong is that they see the ball missing right, and they ignore the CURVE, and simply try to play that slice by starting the ball farther left. So what "feels" like the right solution to most people - to swing to the left more - is the worst thing they can do. That just sends the path farther left. If they're lucky the face goes left too, and they hit a pull-slice that's playable. Most aren't lucky (because the face doesn't rotate with the path).

 


 

To be clear, the "fix the face first" instructors have this process. They've said this in their own words.

 

  1. Student is hitting pull slices. They fix the face so the student is hitting pulls instead.
  2. Now that the face is square to the path (a pull), they rotate the path to the right (while the face rotates 1:1, somehow) so the student is hitting the ball straight.

 

Now, why the face and path are 1:1 in step 2 but not in step 1 is beyond me, but that's fine. Two steps to cure your slice! Great! Sign everyone up, right?!?!

 

Except this is what Mike and I will often do, and again, well before the student's hit half of a small bucket of golf balls:

 

  1. Rotate the path to the right. See how much that affects the student's face angle, and typically make a setup or a grip change so that they can deliver the face in a position that works with their path and preferred shot shape (pull fade, push fade, push draw, whatever - all playable shots).

 

That's it.

 

You can ask Dave - I still call it "the cheater lesson" because it takes almost no time and is the easiest thing in the world to do.

post #72 of 150

Good explanation, Erik.  I have a neighbor who is after me to help him get rid of his BIG slice.  I will try your method the next time we go to the range. However, if he doesn't start hitting controlled draws within five swings, I'm gonna tell him it's the fault of some guy in Erie, PA.a1_smile.gif.

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