Comparing handicaps

I'm a Scottish golfer who's handicap is 8 but about 20 months ago i was playing off 13 and booked a round of golf at carnoustie as a single. Prior to teeing off i was paired up with a Canadian guy who played off 8, he was a nice guy and looked the part but his golf never equated to an 8. After inflicting a very heavy defeat on the guy we went for a few pints and spoke about the game, i put my victory down to me playing reasonably well and him playing not so well, but he reckoned that it was probably more to do with how our own separate handicap system works, he also said he would have to have played very well just to give me a game and thought his Canadian handicap of 8 would be closer to a Scottish 12
Has anyone else had a similar experience with playing with someone from another country that the handicaps didn't balance out, and could someone please give me an explanation on how an American handicap is worked out

thanks

Cliff's notes version.

Best 10 scores out of 20 are taken with a descending scale if the number of rounds you play is less.

Your scores are calculated as follows:

Score (minus) course rating X (multiplied by) 113 / (divided by) slope.

Does Scotland have course ratings and/or slopes?

sorry for the copy and paste, thanks for the reply

In the UK and Republic of Ireland, a "scratch score" system was previously in place in order to rate courses and be fair to golfers of varying ability, and to make allowances that courses may play "easier" or "harder" than par, overall, to the amateur field. For this reason, a "standard scratch score" (SSS) is used as a baseline for how the course plays in practice (e.g. an SSS lower than par indicates a course which golfers find slightly easier, and vice versa).

Akin to the SSS is the Competition Scratch Score (CSS). The principle is the same, only this describes how easy or difficult the course played during a given competition. It is against this CSS score that a player's handicap is adjusted by the club. Golfers with a handicap of 5 or lower are said to be Category 1 players. Higher handicap players are categorised as Category 2, 3, or 4. For every stroke the Category 1 golfer's net score is below the CSS, his handicap is reduced by 0.1. For Category 2 golfers, this figure is 0.2, for Category 3 golfers it is a 0.3 reduction, and 0.4 for Category 4 golfers.

Similarly, amateur golfers are allowed a buffer zone to protect their handicap on "off-days". For Cat 1 this is 1 stroke, for Cat 2 this is 2 strokes, etc. This means that if a Category 1 golfer's net score is one stroke higher than the CSS, his handicap will not increase. If a golfer's net score is higher than the CSS plus buffer zone combined, his handicap will increase by 0.1. This 0.1 increase covers all golfers and does not vary by category.

It pretty well sounds the same as the Canadian or US handicap system...you've just explained it with different language. I'm Also Canadian...I think an 8 index is an 8 index wherever you play. I played to an 8 when i lived in Alberta (dry high elevation); when I moved to Vancouver (similar weather to southern UK), I could not play my handicap, I just could not get my distances right...it took me 2 years to get back to an 8 and now I'm a bit better.

It may be that your Canadian friend was playing in a new environment and clearly a different style of golf...or he's really a 12

I don't agree with the similarity of both systems, in the Netherlands we have the same system as in Scotland. In the USA it is possible to go from hc. 28 hacker to hc 3 by just playing 10 rounds (even without a marker) and is a hc based on players own responsibillity, while in our system you can only register rounds that were in a competition or at least with a marker (that needs to have an official hc. themself). AND we have to preregister a qualifying round, of the score is bad our hc is raised, if the score is in the buffer it stays even and only if it is better the hc is lowered 0.1 - 0.4 per stroke depending on hc. catagory ...... in the USA it is possible to only register the best rounds and golfers can decide after the round to register scores or not.

Most USA courses I played during visits to the USA have wide fairways (compared to in Europe) and also have a 1st cut, a 2nd cut and then there is rough ..... so a drive landing in the fairway will at worst end up in the first cut (and the first cut is like our best fairways) ....... and at most courses the fairways have very tight grass where the balls rest up, in Europe and certaintly in Scotland the ball is up the grass but in the grass (if there is any) ...... we have a lot more uneven lies ....... so basicly on most courses the golf is more demanding for lowcappers.

Most courses in Europe have narrower fairways, no 1st cut and certaintly no 2nd cut ...... so you are in the fairway or in the shit.

Most courses in Europe have more fairway hazards and the sand in bunkers is mostly firm and/or wet, so getting out demands more .....

Whenever I played in the USA (at let's normal courses) I played my hc with ease ...... also most USA greens are better and larger, so hitting a green from 200 yds in is a lot easier than at most European courses.

I have played with many USA low cappers over here, sofar I never met one living up to their hc level, not in scores, but worst was we almost never saw the swing or the ball striking you would expect from a lowcapper ......

So I feel there is a big difference in both systems.

Further hc scores over 9 holes can be submitted in the european system only for hc 11.5 and above and category 1 (+ to 4.5) can only have valid scores in competition .... not in social rounds, so there is allways the extra pressure of tournaments to add.

So from our view the USA system sucks........ ;-)

Agreed on the differences between HOW the scores are turned in and how the possibility of vanity handicaps can happen in the US.

Regarding your premise of US couses being easier than Europes courses (or Europe's courses being in worse condition than US's)......let's just say that your "experience" is biased and/or limited.

Regarding the pure calculation,,,I beleive there is little difference.

In the US we don't have an issue with "vanity caps"  we have the opposite problem.  Guys with high handicaps, say an 18 who play to about a 12 or a 12 who plays to about an 8.  Those are the guys to watch out for.  If a guy says he's a 4 and he's really an 11 then who cares?  Beat him and take his money round after round. In my life I will never worry about a vanity cap player. I will only worry about a sandbagger.  If you play in a lot of tournaments a vanity cap is nothing you want to have and most guys realize that.  Most guys.  This is why people need to post every score they shoot not just the low ones and not just the high ones. But if you have a good handicap committee then they should test every cap before a competition starts and make sure all the caps are legit.  You do this by comparing their tournament scores.  There is a formula in the USGA handicap book.

Gotta disagree.  I know more guys with vanity caps than I do with sandbagging caps.  Most guys I know are honest about it, but the ones who aren't are those who return handicap scores when they didn't play by the rules of golf.  They either play preferred lies, or they play a second ball when they didn't like the  first one, or they simply don't return a score which they feel is beneath them.  Any acts like that will result in a vanity handicap, even though they will swear up and down that they don't do it.  Often they don't even realize that they are mostly just hurting themselves, making it very difficult to be competitive in a tournament.

Our handicap committee is quick to catch sandbaggers, but they don't really worry too much about the vanity cappers.

Not sure where the original quote went, but I disagree as well. Vanity caps can be achieved any number of ways, and they're rather commonplace. A lot of guys never play in tournaments so their handicap doesn't factor in the added pressure or making every putt and proper drops. Maybe they'd do better in a tournament and maybe they wouldn't, but until they know, their index is likely too low. Playing one course exclusively, then travelling to play has pitfalls as well.

If you've ever looked forward to a relaxing round on vacation, then after 4-6 hours of punishment wondered why you even bother to make room for the clubs, you might have a vanity handicap. The two courses I'll be playing at this summer are rated lower than they should be, relative to other courses in the area. The index may go up, but it will travel well.

The line I put in bold is probably the biggest source of vanity handicaps.  Mine qualifies under that heading.  Since I almost never play competitions away from my home course, my handicap is "legitimate" for those comps, but it would be too low if I did try to compete elsewhere, and  I'd probably be starting with at least a 2 or 3 stroke disadvantage.  Over the last 3 years I've tried to spread my play out more (which may account for the fact that my handicap has trended up about 1½ strokes), but since I work on the course where I compete, the price is too good to pass up.  I have to have a reason for playing elsewhere in order to justify the expense.

My point was who cares about a vanity cap? It's the sandbaggers you have to worry about.  A guy with a vanity cap can never hurt you.  You should beat them everytime.

If a guy says he's a 2 but is really a 9 and you're a 10. Take the 8 shots and smoke him.  If  I'm betting on a game with a guy, I'll take his BS vanity cap any day and take his money everyday.

If a guy is cheating by playing 2 balls or fluffing his lies to get a low cap, then hold him to the rules in a tournament and beat him.  If he does not play tournaments yet goes around saying he's scratch then who cares?  he's the one who has to live whith himself.

As far as getting a cap at one course it reminds me of the old Harvey Penick statement.  A mom came to harvey and said my son is shooting par at our course do you think he can make it in tournament golf.  And Harvey said well he now has to go accross the street and shoot par and down the road and shoot par etc...

In our system it is almost impossible to get a vanity handicap, but we also suffer from sandbaggers (called submarines overhere), they tend to turn in lots of qualifying cards an hit balls into the wood if a good score threathens their too high hc....... then there is the anual presidents cup, with a nice tourbag or Scotty for the winner and guess who enters a card 8 or 10 strokes below their handicap ....... yep those guys. They also show up at so called social tournaments or other non qualifying tournaments ...... and it are always these guys walking away with the prices...... sometimes playing like hc 20 and starting of hc. 36

No actually the sandbaggers/submarines are so clever that they turn in scores like 5 under, because it is almost fraud to turn in a score of 10 under.

I once also was under investigation, when I shot a 74 (+2) while still playing from hc. 11 ....... hihihi ........ but I just had one of those days I could do about nothing wrong.

But in the USA system I have met quite a lot of guys (never playing any real tournaments) having vanity caps, but who cares if playing a social round, they always told me they had a new set, or they hadn't been playing since three months, etc ........ ;-) ...... I know what to expect swingwise for a single capper, even when they only play 5 times a year.

Swings can be a little misleading, but in general, yes I agree with this. There's the odd guy sitting at 20 who can't seem to score well. There's the odd single digit with a terrible (looking) swing, who just never seems to lose a tee ball, is never too far from the green, and putt the lights out, but those are exceptions.

A totally hypothetical question, if a golfer in America had a handicap of 28 and over night magically turned into a fantastic golfer, scored a level par 67 in his next five rounds on a track that has a course rating of 65.1 and a slope rating of 106, what would his handicap be. In Scotland if he actually survived he would be playing off 4

Well, we use 10 rounds to compute the handicap so it depends on what the previous 5 used rounds were, but let's say he was playing exactly to his handicap over those rounds. If so then his current handicap after the 5 67s would be about 13.3.

In the Netherlands I doubt he would reach the end of the parking lot in any other way than in a black 5 door limousine ;)

Sorry for the confusion, i didn't ask it in correct way. His official handicap is 28 and the 67s are scratch 67s with his handicap still to come off

I think he understood your question. 13 to 15 (ish) seems about right.