Quick question about head movement in the S&T swing...

**LongballGer** · February 6, 2011

Hi all,

Quick question concerning the downswing.

Is it okay for the head to move left (towards the target) or should it be completely stationary the whole way through? When I keep it stationary it seems like my weight is stuck in the middle instead of 90% on my left foot at impact. When I transfer my weight the head and the sternum automatically move forward which enables me to really trap the ball. However I also watched a vid of charlie wi and his head barely moves towards the target on the downswing. It seems to not move in any direction during his swing. Isn´t it impossible to transfer your weight towards your front foot without moving your head and sternum as well?

**Zeph** · February 6, 2011

The head can move a little forward, but not too much. Ideally it should stay pretty stationary. The hips is what cause the weight to move forward. By moving the hips you also move parts of the leg and stomach to of course, but the head should not follow forward with the hips. You can't transfer all the weight over to the left foot without moving the head, but we are not looking for 100% weight shift, it's more 90% at impact. Emulating Charlie Wi on head movement is a good start. The weight is a part of the big picture, but without proper hand action, you can still hit it fat. Weight forward makes it easier, but you still need to retain the lag and get the forward leaning shaft at impact, which comes from a different part of the swing (hands and arms). Moving the head forward may feel good when you hit the ball first, but I would recommend you work on keeping the head still, moving the hips forward and do some work on the hands and holding the flying wedges.

***iacas*** · February 6, 2011

Zeph answered it.

Head going forward also inhibits proper secondary axis tilt. Club can get stuck in the ground (not necessarily literally, but sometimes).

**Dad-2-3** · February 6, 2011

Originally Posted by Zeph

The head can move a little forward, but not too much. Ideally it should stay pretty stationary.

The hips is what cause the weight to move forward. By moving the hips you also move parts of the leg and stomach to of course, but the head should not follow forward with the hips.

You can't transfer all the weight over to the left foot without moving the head, but we are not looking for 100% weight shift, it's more 90% at impact. Emulating Charlie Wi on head movement is a good start.

The weight is a part of the big picture, but without proper hand action, you can still hit it fat. Weight forward makes it easier, but you still need to retain the lag and get the forward leaning shaft at impact, which comes from a different part of the swing (hands and arms). Moving the head forward may feel good when you hit the ball first, but I would recommend you work on keeping the head still, moving the hips forward and do some work on the hands and holding the flying wedges.

Agree with the above. One of my (many) problems trying to adopt the S&T; method was my misinterpretation of "weight forward" to mean a large upper body move toward the target. What helped me was keeping the head and upper body centered and striving for the "butt tucked" finish. I found in the off season that by striving for the proper finish had my hips moving forward properly on the downswing. I added distance and mucho height to my ball flight with proper extension. Contact has become much more consistent as well and far less fat/thin shots by attempting to hold onto the flying wedge.

Dave's video helped me a ton!!

edit: added video

**Kujan** · February 7, 2011

Very helpful thread. This is what I need to be doing too. On the downswing slide those hips forward but keep the head back. Would it be correct to say it's a "reverse c"?

**Zeph** · February 7, 2011

That would be correct. Though it must not be mistaken with the more commonly known reverse C with the weight too far back, which is not something you want. That position is usually a result of the head being too far back. Good: [img]http://www.golfdigest.com/images/instruction/2007/09/insl05_stacktilt.jpg[/img] The S&T; reverse C is created by the feet and head staying still while the hips move forward, at no point should the head move backwards or forwards in the downswing. On the follow through at to the finish, the head can move a bit forward, which it probably will from the momentum, but try not to get the head over the left foot at the finish. If you can ingrain keeping the head where it is from start to finish, it's easier to work with and control.

**motteler621** · February 7, 2011

Originally Posted by Zeph

That would be correct. Though it must not be mistaken with the more commonly known reverse C with the weight too far back, which is not something you want. That position is usually a result of the head being too far back.

Good:

The S&T; reverse C is created by the feet and head staying still while the hips move forward, at no point should the head move backwards or forwards in the downswing. On the follow through at to the finish, the head can move a bit forward, which it probably will from the momentum, but try not to get the head over the left foot at the finish. If you can ingrain keeping the head where it is from start to finish, it's easier to work with and control.

This is a move where Foley is different from S&T.; Foley wants you to be standing almost straight up on the finish. He teaches this on the videos I have as well, its a move that really makes his swing not look like a carbon copy of S&T; with his players.

***iacas*** · February 7, 2011

Originally Posted by motteler621

This is a move where Foley is different from S&T.; Foley wants you to be standing almost straight up on the finish. He teaches this on the videos I have as well, its a move that really makes his swing not look like a carbon copy of S&T; with his players.

Without getting into too much detail, that's part of the thing his players struggle with as well, because Sean doesn't really seem to understand the downswing as well as some S&T; guys (including me) wish he would. Tiger's improved here but not as much as he really should with that piece. I don't know that they've worked on his downswing at all, really, except not letting his head go to the RIGHT, which was likely cleaned up more from the backswing pieces than anything.

Additionally, we don't much care if your head drifts forward from P8 onward, and technically we don't care if it goes forward starting at P7.1... the problem is that if you want to feel your head going forward, it's going to start much sooner than you think.

The shoulders should continue to swing in a circle, and Foley's more upright finish disrupts that circle, and likely a LOT earlier than most people realize.

**LongballGer** · February 7, 2011

Thanks to everyone that replied so far.

I worked on keeping the head stationary today, but the result was that I was hitting everything fat. I had a good lateral shift with my hips and my upper body wasn´t tilted too far back at impact so I don´t understand why I´m still hitting it fat. My arm and hand action is also fine since I maintain a lot of lag coming down. My backswing is also good. Any thoughts why I´m still hitting it fat?

**motteler621** · February 7, 2011

Originally Posted by iacas

Quote:

Originally Posted by motteler621

This is a move where Foley is different from S&T.; Foley wants you to be standing almost straight up on the finish. He teaches this on the videos I have as well, its a move that really makes his swing not look like a carbon copy of S&T; with his players.

Without getting into too much detail, that's part of the thing his players struggle with as well, because Sean doesn't really seem to understand the downswing as well as some S&T; guys (including me) wish he would. Tiger's improved here but not as much as he really should with that piece. I don't know that they've worked on his downswing at all, really, except not letting his head go to the RIGHT, which was likely cleaned up more from the backswing pieces than anything.

Additionally, we don't much care if your head drifts forward from P8 onward, and technically we don't care if it goes forward starting at P7.1... the problem is that if you want to feel your head going forward, it's going to start much sooner than you think.

The shoulders should continue to swing in a circle, and Foley's more upright finish disrupts that circle, and likely a LOT earlier than most people realize.

yea I understand the geometry behind what S&T; teaches to keep the circle even well after impact because people can come out the the circle alot earlier than is desired. I dont disagree with teaching people this but I think Foley teaches a more natural finish to the swing, check out hunter mayhan below. Hunter still has kept the circle well after impact so it doesnt look like its effecting him much.

**Zeph** · February 7, 2011

Thanks to everyone that replied so far.

I worked on keeping the head stationary today, but the result was that I was hitting everything fat. I had a good lateral shift with my hips and my upper body wasn´t tilted too far back at impact so I don´t understand why I´m still hitting it fat. My arm and hand action is also fine since I maintain a lot of lag coming down. My backswing is also good. Any thoughts why I´m still hitting it fat?

Can't say for sure without video, but I will make a guess that you are either not getting the weight far enough forward, able to hold the lag through the downswing (casting) or a combination of the two. There are of course lots of components that can affect the impact position, a video is usually the best place to start.

**LongballGer** · February 7, 2011

I think I figured it out. I just reread parts of the S&T; book and my problem is that I´m not actively pulling my arms down from the top of the backswing position. I mistakenly thought you didn´t have to since you don´t actively lift them during the backswing.

Taken straight from the book: "If your hands don´t start moving downward from the start, you´ll tend to drop your right shoulder to get the club down to the ball...The problem with that is that it shifts the shoulder center back."

Quote:

Quote:

Originally Posted by LongballGer

Thanks to everyone that replied so far.

I worked on keeping the head stationary today, but the result was that I was hitting everything fat. I had a good lateral shift with my hips and my upper body wasn´t tilted too far back at impact so I don´t understand why I´m still hitting it fat. My arm and hand action is also fine since I maintain a lot of lag coming down. My backswing is also good. Any thoughts why I´m still hitting it fat?

Can't say for sure without video, but I will make a guess that you are either not getting the weight far enough forward, able to hold the lag through the downswing (casting) or a combination of the two. There are of course lots of components that can affect the impact position, a video is usually the best place to start.

***iacas*** · February 7, 2011

Originally Posted by motteler621

yea I understand the geometry behind what S&T; teaches to keep the circle even well after impact because people can come out the the circle alot earlier than is desired. I dont disagree with teaching people this but I think Foley teaches a more natural finish to the swing

If by "more natural" you mean "more likely to disrupt the geometry" then sure, yeah, Foley teaches that on the downswing. Yippee. :-P

**david_wedzik** · February 7, 2011

Originally Posted by motteler621

yea I understand the geometry behind what S&T; teaches to keep the circle even well after impact because people can come out the the circle alot earlier than is desired. I dont disagree with teaching people this but I think Foley teaches a more natural finish to the swing, check out hunter mayhan below. Hunter still has kept the circle well after impact so it doesnt look like its effecting him much.

Well, not really. The SnT finish is meant to look that way or "planned". As an example, Hunter Mahan doesn't keep pushing his hips forward (along the circle) long enough and isn't extending as well as he could be (better extension would keep his head more stable viewed FO). Because of this the inclination is somewhat "faked" in the early part of the follow through (he adds side tilt manually more than it being "put in" by the forward). I would say it is proven by the fact that he can't stick the finish in his inclination and ends more vertical, ala Foley. And btw I'm not at all saying Mahan and many of Foley's players don't playing great golf...they do. I'm just saying that it is NOT "more natural". It may be more comfortable but there is a difference. We play with bent clubs with the ball on the ground...the most natural way to do things would be to adhere to what is "forced" on us by the setup itself. The more vertical, Foley taught finish would be natural and perfect if the ball were on a 5 ft. tee.

Dave

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