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My driver fitting (The_Pharaoh)


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I decided to visit a driving range the other day to get some numbers for my drives as they'd recently installed a very basic version of Trackman. The reason I did this was because I've started noticing that although I'm hitting the ball hard and solidly, I'm not hitting it as far as I think I should.

Even players that generate noticeably less clubhead speed than me are up with or not far from my best drives. I've either got a swing problem or a club problem. What do you guys make of the numbers below? I was hitting the ball solidly but was fading the ball more than I usually do on the golf course (tends to happen to me hitting off a rubber tee). Even though I am not a big hitter, even the numbers below are on the short side as I hit it longer on the course. How far should someone my age, weight etc. hit it? Thanks.

My driver: 8.5 degree, 907D2, V2 shaft (S).

Driving range: uphill, grass (wet), using crappy range balls and off a rubber tee which I hate(!).

Age: 37 in July.

Height: 6 ft

Weight: 200 lbs

1. Ball speed: 142.6 mph

2. Launch angle: 11.1 degrees

3. Spin rate: 3747 rpm

4. Height: 26.6 yards

5. Spin axis: 14.1 degrees right

6. Landing angle: 40.4 degrees

7. Carry: 216 yards

8. Total distance: 235 yards

"Success is going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm." – Winston Churchill

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How far do you think you should be hitting the ball with 95 MPH clubhead speed?

Also, 8.5 resulting in 11.1 is way too low. Spin rate's barely high... but as you add loft you'll want to make sure it doesn't go any higher.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

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Agree with Erik. 8.5 degrees is not nearly enough loft for that swing/ball speed. Consider the chart below from Tom Wishon, who has probably done as much research as anyone in the industry on the subject. [img]http://assets.thesandtrap.com.s3.amazonaws.com/d/d6/d605a51c_chart1.jpg[/img] Couple of other quick thoughts: -- 8.5* loft and 11* launch means you are either hitting the ball with a pronounced positive angle of attack, or you are adding a fair bit of effective loft at impact by flipping. Your somewhat high spin numbers seem to me to suggest the latter. -- Please don't take this the wrong way, but your ball speed seems low for a player of your age, stature and ability. Are there any other limiting factors that might be relevant?

Stretch.

"In the process of trial and error, our failed attempts are meant to destroy arrogance and provoke humility." -- Master Jin Kwon

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Originally Posted by iacas

How far do you think you should be hitting the ball with 95 MPH clubhead speed?

Also, 8.5 resulting in 11.1 is way too low. Spin rate's barely high... but as you add loft you'll want to make sure it doesn't go any higher.

I am not being funny Erik, but I have no idea! I am completely clueless on club fitting and am considering taking some sort of course to improve my knowledge in this area.

How do you know my SS is 95 MPH? I am fairly certain it is much higher when I play on the course with a decent tee and a Pro V1 ball. Around 105 MPH I would say. Could the balls have something to do with the low ball speed?

So what you are saying is I need a driver with my higher loft? 10.5, 11 degrees?

Thanks, I appreciate your help with this.

"Success is going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm." – Winston Churchill

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Originally Posted by Stretch

Agree with Erik. 8.5 degrees is not nearly enough loft for that swing/ball speed. Consider the chart below from Tom Wishon, who has probably done as much research as anyone in the industry on the subject.

Couple of other quick thoughts:

-- 8.5* loft and 11* launch means you are either hitting the ball with a pronounced positive angle of attack, or you are adding a fair bit of effective loft at impact by flipping. Your somewhat high spin numbers seem to me to suggest the latter.

-- Please don't take this the wrong way, but your ball speed seems low for a player of your age, stature and ability. Are there any other limiting factors that might be relevant?



Thanks Stretch. It's clear I need a proper driver fitting session! As posted above to Erik, I'm sure I'm nearer 105 MPH on the course with a decent tee and Pro V1 ball.

As for your first point, yes I intentionally hit up on the ball and probably flip as well. No offence taken, no other limiting factors other than my slight over the top move! Basically, what you're showing me above is that if I'm nearer 105 MPH SS I need a 9.5 degree driver?

"Success is going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm." – Winston Churchill

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Originally Posted by The_Pharaoh

How do you know my SS is 95 MPH? I am fairly certain it is much higher when I play on the course with a decent tee and a Pro V1 ball. Around 105 MPH I would say. Could the balls have something to do with the low ball speed?


Erik's working back from the 143 mph ball speed on the monitor. For a perfect hit, ball speed = club head speed * 1.495 -- so in your case 143/1.495 = 96 mph. By comparison, if you were swinging 105 mph with your 8.5 degree driver, you would be carrying it a shade under 250 yards assuming a 2.5 degree upward strike. Now, if you were using restricted-flight range balls, that could certainly account for some of the the discrepancy between the numbers you saw and your perceptions out on the course.

Anyway, I'm not sure what kind of launch monitor you were measured on (Trackman is a specific brand name rather than a generic descriptive and their cheapest units run about $20,000) but to get really useful fitting indications you'll need data you can trust. These guys look like a good bet: http://www.virtualrange.es/

As I said, there are a couple of other factors to consider in getting the right loft, but it's pretty much 100% certain that 8.5 degrees is not enough for you.

Stretch.

"In the process of trial and error, our failed attempts are meant to destroy arrogance and provoke humility." -- Master Jin Kwon

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Originally Posted by Stretch

Erik's working back from the 143 mph ball speed on the monitor. For a perfect hit, ball speed = club head speed * 1.495 -- so in your case 143/1.495 = 96 mph. By comparison, if you were swinging 105 mph with your 8.5 degree driver, you would be carrying it a shade under 250 yards assuming a 2.5 degree upward strike. Now, if you were using restricted-flight range balls, that could certainly account for some of the the discrepancy between the numbers you saw and your perceptions out on the course.

Anyway, I'm not sure what kind of launch monitor you were measured on (Trackman is a specific brand name rather than a generic descriptive and their cheapest units run about $20,000) but to get really useful fitting indications you'll need data you can trust. These guys look like a good bet: http://www.virtualrange.es/

As I said, there are a couple of other factors to consider in getting the right loft, but it's pretty much 100% certain that 8.5 degrees is not enough for you.

I've just done a quick calculation and there is no doubt my average carry distance on the course is around 250 yards. However, my concern is the fact players of my level are hitting it 30-40 yards through the air further than me with almost the same SS. At Christmas, I played a round with a Spanish friend of mine currently on a golf scholarship in South Carolina playing a 9.5 degree driver and 107 MPH SS. He hit very high and was easily 30-40 yards ahead of me.


Virtualrange.es is where I went to! It's definitely Trackman as it is the first one opened in Spain.

Thanks again Stretch!

"Success is going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm." – Winston Churchill

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Hmmmm if the other guy is 30-40 yards further than you it is hard to imagine that your normal carry is 250 ..... That would mean your playing partner's carry is 280-290

If your ball speed is 142.6 Mph with a 105 Mph swingspeed, your smashfactor is quite low (1.35) ....... and it would do you good to focus on improving the contact with the ball at a slower swingspeed...... better contact with a lesser swingspeed and you will gain maybe 20 yds !!!

Slowing down will also lower your spinrate ..... which is too high !

Further a 9.5 will mean a longer airtime ! = more length !!!

Besides that from what I know of the shaft you are using is, that it is mostly appreciated by the really strong hitters (advise 110-120 Mph) ..... so being a bit toooo stiff for you, which might also have a bad influence on your smashfactor.

If your hc. is really 0.0 it is hard to imagine that you only have a smashfactor of 1.35 ,,,,, so conclusion might be that your ss is more like 95-100 Mph and it is also hard to believe that you don't have some knowledge or thoughts on fitting etc. at your level of play.

Cal Razr Hawk 10.5 | TM Superfast 3W | Adams Idea Pro Black 20 | MP-68 3-PW | TW9 50/06 + 58/12 | Ram Zebra Putter

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Originally Posted by Gerald

Hmmmm if the other guy is 30-40 yards further than you it is hard to imagine that your normal carry is 250 ..... That would mean your playing partner's carry is 280-290

If your ball speed is 142.6 Mph with a 105 Mph swingspeed, your smashfactor is quite low (1.35) ....... and it would do you good to focus on improving the contact with the ball at a slower swingspeed...... better contact with a lesser swingspeed and you will gain maybe 20 yds !!!

Slowing down will also lower your spinrate ..... which is too high !

Further a 9.5 will mean a longer airtime ! = more length !!!

Besides that from what I know of the shaft you are using is, that it is mostly appreciated by the really strong hitters (advise 110-120 Mph) ..... so being a bit toooo stiff for you, which might also have a bad influence on your smashfactor.

If your hc. is really 0.0 it is hard to imagine that you only have a smashfactor of 1.35 ,,,,, so conclusion might be that your ss is more like 95-100 Mph and it is also hard to believe that you don't have some knowledge or thoughts on fitting etc. at your level of play.


Hi Gerald. Thanks for your comments.

Re: my playing partner. That's right. I may get 20-25 yards extra roll as I hit the ball lower, but he carries the ball 280-290 plus maybe 10-15 yards roll. At the end of the day, his total distance is at least 15 yards more than me, but normally 25-30 yards more. He's 21 or 22 and is a +2 handicapper winning college tournaments. He also told me he was the shortest off the tee on his team!

Re: Smash factor. You've calculated it wrong as with Trackman my SS was 95 MPH, not 105 MPH. I hit the ball quite solidly, that's not the problem.

Re: shaft. I was fitted 4 years ago when I told the club fitter I was hitting the ball too high off the tee with my 9.5 degree 983E driver. He recommended 8.5 degrees, the D2 with the V2 shaft to lower my ball flight. I think he made a mistake and I stupidly went along with it as I didn't have the knowledge. This is why I said to Erik above that I think I need to take a course on club fitting in order to have a better idea what my students may need.

Btw, I hit my irons as far as or further than my partner, so I'm pretty convinced now it's the driver I'm using.

"Success is going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm." – Winston Churchill

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Originally Posted by The_Pharaoh

Re: Smash factor. You've calculated it wrong as with Trackman my SS was 95 MPH, not 105 MPH. I hit the ball quite solidly, that's not the problem.


Why would you give us Trackman stats that are 10 MPH off from what you believe you normally swing? What's the point of using Trackman and swinging differently than you swing on the course? Why then ask us about those numbers?

If you were trying to swing the same way you do on the course, and your contact wasn't abysmal, then you don't swing 105 MPH.

Even if 105 is accurate, you're not using enough loft. And spin is quite high. It's unlikely your angle of attack is positive. Trackman gives you those numbers too - so what was your AoA? Clubhead speed? etc.?

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

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Originally Posted by iacas

Why would you give us Trackman stats that are 10 MPH off from what you believe you normally swing?

95 MPH I got from your ball speed and assuming decent contact, yes. And at 95 MPH there's no way you're using a driver with enough loft. At 105 you're still not.

Why is your ball speed so low? Why are you asking us for our thoughts on a fitting that you claim varies 10 MPH, rendering most of what anyone would say pointless?

Also, I guarantee you nboody's carrying the ball 280+ with 105 MPH clubhead speed. Not unless you live in Denver or something, and even then 290 is a stretch.



I apologise if I'm driving you crazy with this (no pun intended). I simply wanted to know if I need to buy another driver in order to get more distance. Thanks to your replies, I now know I do. I always felt 8.5 was too little loft and I've been proven right. However, I was shocked at the numbers Trackman gave me as there is no way in hell I only carry the ball 216 yards (235 yards in total) on the golf course. I am not a long hitter and never have been, but I'm easily averaging 275 yards in total off the tee on the course assuming normal conditions. I also live in Madrid which is 2,300 ft above sea level.

I got the 105 MPH figure from an old measurement I took with one of those small portable devices you can buy. But to be honest, I don't know the exact figure and will have to look into it.

"Success is going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm." – Winston Churchill

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Originally Posted by iacas

What's the point of using Trackman and swinging differently than you swing on the course? Why then ask us about those numbers?

Even if 105 is accurate, you're not using enough loft. And spin is quite high. It's unlikely your angle of attack is positive. Trackman gives you those numbers too - so what was your AoA? Clubhead speed? etc.?


I didn't intentionally swing differently, those were the results I got trying to swing the same way. I asked about those numbers as they don't make sense to me as the carry and total distance were WAY lower than my carry and total distance on the course.

The Trackman I used ONLY gave me the numbers I posted in my original thread. I thought I was hitting up on the ball as that is what I was trying to do, but now you make me doubt that assumption.

"Success is going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm." – Winston Churchill

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Originally Posted by The_Pharaoh

Re: Smash factor. You've calculated it wrong as with Trackman my SS was 95 MPH, not 105 MPH. I hit the ball quite solidly, that's not the problem.

Re: shaft. I was fitted 4 years ago when I told the club fitter I was hitting the ball too high off the tee with my 9.5 degree 983E driver. He recommended 8.5 degrees, the D2 with the V2 shaft to lower my ball flight. I think he made a mistake and I stupidly went along with it as I didn't have the knowledge. This is why I said to Erik above that I think I need to take a course on club fitting in order to have a better idea what my students may need.


You told us Your ss is 105 Mph ...... so if it is ..... smashfactor is 1.35 AND if you now state it was 95 Mph ....... (smashfactor 1.50) while the best hitters on the tour are maybe 1.48 ........ one thing I know for sure is that your swing speed might be somewhere in between, but your smashfactor is a problem !!!

I don't understand why you are using one of the stiffest low torque shafts on the market. 8.5 and all the backspin you create ...... you are coming down on the ball and maybe with an open face, because you cannot square the face with a shaft being way too stiff with your ss.

Further I understand you are a "golfteacher" ...... uhh without knowledge on fitting, flexes, torque, etc., which is hard to believe ......

Cal Razr Hawk 10.5 | TM Superfast 3W | Adams Idea Pro Black 20 | MP-68 3-PW | TW9 50/06 + 58/12 | Ram Zebra Putter

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Then I suggest you go out on a course, hit some balls and measure with a laser the accurate carry distance. Have someone stand on the fairway and mark it. After that, go back to the Trackman and hit some shots, just trying to do the same as you did on the course. Same ball, same club.

It sounds strange that the Trackman is 35 yards off.

You say your swing speed is 105, is this something you have measured, or just guessing? Taking some swings with impact tape should reveal how good your smash factor is, then you can look at the ball speed to find an indication of the swing speed. I thought the Trackman recorded the swing speed too.

Ogio Grom | Callaway X Hot Pro | Callaway X-Utility 3i | Mizuno MX-700 23º | Titleist Vokey SM 52.08, 58.12 | Mizuno MX-700 15º | Titleist 910 D2 9,5º | Scotty Cameron Newport 2 | Titleist Pro V1x and Taylormade Penta | Leupold GX-1

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Originally Posted by Gerald

You told us Your ss is 105 Mph ...... so if it is ..... smashfactor is 1.35 AND if you now state it was 95 Mph ....... (smashfactor 1.50) while the best hitters on the tour are maybe 1.48 ........ one thing I know for sure is that your swing speed might be somewhere in between, but your smashfactor is a problem !!!

I don't understand why you are using one of the stiffest low torque shafts on the market. 8.5 and all the backspin you create ...... you are coming down on the ball and maybe with an open face, because you cannot square the face with a shaft being way too stiff with your ss.

Further I understand you are a "golfteacher" ...... uhh without knowledge on fitting, flexes, torque, etc., which is hard to believe ......


Trackman stated my ball speed was 142.6 MPH, Erik then said my SS was 95 MPH. I mentioned 105 MPH because I recall using one of those SS measurement devices a while back which recorded my SS at 105 MPH. Obviously, it wasn't 105 MPH when I was using Trackman.

I am using the driver I am using because I did a fitting 4 years ago and it was the driver I was recommended. I now know I made a mistake buying it.

I am a golf instructor in Spain, which is not much more advanced than Africa, so fittings, flexes etc. are not abundant here. The first Trackman in the country was installed in October 2010 and then only gives the readings I mentioned above. NO analysis of the club, it ONLY measures the ball. You guys don't realise how fortunate you are to be based in the US when it comes to modern technology.

"Success is going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm." – Winston Churchill

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Originally Posted by Zeph

Then I suggest you go out on a course, hit some balls and measure with a laser the accurate carry distance. Have someone stand on the fairway and mark it. After that, go back to the Trackman and hit some shots, just trying to do the same as you did on the course. Same ball, same club.

It sounds strange that the Trackman is 35 yards off.

You say your swing speed is 105, is this something you have measured, or just guessing? Taking some swings with impact tape should reveal how good your smash factor is, then you can look at the ball speed to find an indication of the swing speed. I thought the Trackman recorded the swing speed too.


Thanks Zeph. I think I need to find a decent Trackman that measures everything and allows me to hit my preferred ball. If not, it's a waste of time.

I was guessing 105 MPH based on my distances on the course and from recalling using one of those swing speed radars a while back.

Thanks to you, Stretch, Erik and Gerald I now know where the problems lie. I need a driver with more loft and a less stiff shaft. Oh, and I need to work on shallowing out my AoA as I'm not positive but negative! Weird as I really feel as if I'm hitting up the ball...

"Success is going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm." – Winston Churchill

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The place you went to didn't allow you to bring your own balls?

I understand that your options on fitting centers are limited, hope you can find a good one. It was my understanding that Trackman is pretty good, even if it is the cheaper version, but they may be off for all I know.

If you find a good place to hit balls, try out different lofts and see how that affects your data. That's usually how this stuff is done. Trying different combinations to find the best one.

Ogio Grom | Callaway X Hot Pro | Callaway X-Utility 3i | Mizuno MX-700 23º | Titleist Vokey SM 52.08, 58.12 | Mizuno MX-700 15º | Titleist 910 D2 9,5º | Scotty Cameron Newport 2 | Titleist Pro V1x and Taylormade Penta | Leupold GX-1

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Well most golfers use a too stiff shaft and too little loft (it is an EGO thing). Besides that if you browse a few websites from the shafts manufactors you will notice that even if you know you should be using a Stiff shaft ....... there are so many different shafts, weight, flex, construction, flex point, etc. etc. etc ...... it is very hard to know which shaft is optimum ...... and it might well be you need a Regular high kickpoint shaft from A or a Stiff low kickpoint shaft from B or a high torque shaft from C. etc. etc. etc..... even without a tracking monitor you can optimise results by visiting some demo days, where you might be able to compare a lot of options.

Also most people (even Tour pro's) think they hit the ball in the upswing, but there are so many variables including dynamic loft etc...... that it might well be that coming in negative 1-2 degrees might feel as positive 1-2 degrees.

ALSO ...... I noticed you were writing about using the Pro V1 ...... not the longest ball out there, maybe it would be better for you to use the Pro V1x for a reduced spin of the driver....... don't worry about recommended swingspeeds for certain balls !

Cal Razr Hawk 10.5 | TM Superfast 3W | Adams Idea Pro Black 20 | MP-68 3-PW | TW9 50/06 + 58/12 | Ram Zebra Putter

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Note: This thread is 4343 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

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