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AimPoint Green Reading - Page 2

post #19 of 376
Quote:
Originally Posted by nevets88 View Post


 



Breakmeter? I found it interesting as a novelty, but really couldn't get into using it in practice, but it's cheap and worth a try.

 

There was another app that measured the stimp, but you actually used your iPhone to make measurements. A bit awkward.

 

 

 

I use an app called Clinometer that seems to work fairly well. I am not very good yet at estimating % slope.
 

 

post #20 of 376

"You can also use a paint can lid and a marble in place of the second thing."

 

Now that is my kind of tool!!

post #21 of 376

Alot of rain this Saturday and was told that the class would most likely be held indoors with powerpoint presentations and such so I decided to wait to take a future class where it could be outside on an actual green and hands on.  So disappointed, and can't wait until I have a new date for the clinic  :(

 

post #22 of 376

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ERdiesel View Post

Alot of rain this Saturday and was told that the class would most likely be held indoors with powerpoint presentations and such so I decided to wait to take a future class where it could be outside on an actual green and hands on.  So disappointed, and can't wait until I have a new date for the clinic  :(


Good call. Indoors? I'd have passed too.

post #23 of 376
Thread Starter 
I was surprised that mine wasn't cancelled. The pro I went to always starts the class with slides that show the different greens and a quick overview of the system. I thought it was a good way to start. After about 20 minutes we went outside and it had gone from dark and stormy to sunny and 80 degrees. Anyway, my general impression is that the aimpoint system is awesome. I am a convert, 100%. I do still think $200 is a bit much, and that it could have been taught in 30-45 minutes if the group was smaller, rather than 2.5hrs. I think there is a lot of info but if you've read up about it (john graham has a lot of good stuff) then you can pick up the basis pretty quick. Unfortunately, if you're one of nine students that doesn't really get you anywhere.

Ill post a more complete review tomorrow.
post #24 of 376
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsc123 View Post

I was surprised that mine wasn't cancelled. The pro I went to always starts the class with slides that show the different greens and a quick overview of the system. I thought it was a good way to start. After about 20 minutes we went outside and it had gone from dark and stormy to sunny and 80 degrees. Anyway, my general impression is that the aimpoint system is awesome. I am a convert, 100%. I do still think $200 is a bit much, and that it could have been taught in 30-45 minutes if the group was smaller, rather than 2.5hrs. I think there is a lot of info but if you've read up about it (john graham has a lot of good stuff) then you can pick up the basis pretty quick. Unfortunately, if you're one of nine students that doesn't really get you anywhere.

Ill post a more complete review tomorrow.


Really looking forward to your review.

 

Thanks for the kind words.

post #25 of 376

I'll be at the class May 6th in Chicago.  I'm really looking forward to it...especially after 38 putts on the Bay course at Kapalua today!  Granted I am a much better putter than that, but I pretty much read every green wrong today.  Talk about optical illusions.  

post #26 of 376
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicago Lefty View Post

I'll be at the class May 6th in Chicago.  I'm really looking forward to it...especially after 38 putts on the Bay course at Kapalua today!  Granted I am a much better putter than that, but I pretty much read every green wrong today.  Talk about optical illusions.  


Look forward to meeting you.

 

You'll have a much better understanding of optical illusions after the first class.

 

 

post #27 of 376
Thread Starter 

Ok so here it goes...

 

The Clinic: We started by watching a slide show that showed the different types of greens and the basic overview of aimpoint.  I had read the little information that is available online, so this was mostly a review for me.  But I thought it was a good way to start the class.  Then we went outside and the instructor showed us how to identify anchor points, then how to use your feet to find the inflections/zero lines.  Then he had someone go to a point 90 degrees from the zero line and about 5 feet out, read off the chart to tell him where to aim, and bingo, center cup.  He showed us how to measure the slope, and then we broke off into groups trying to find the zero lines around other holes.  He did a couple demos for starting the ball on line and distance control, then showed us how to do a combo read for puts that involve two types of surfaces.

 

 

Results: (Caveats) With absolutely no practice, I went out and played a round the next morning.  I was hungover, showed up at the wrong golf course, and they squeezed me on immediately.  I played with a frustratingly slow player who refused to pick up.  I mention this because as a result of these factors, i probably used AimPoint principals on about half the greens, and a full out aimpoint ritual on maybe 3.  Early on the hangover prevented me from thinking about anything for more than 3 seconds, and later, i was too frustrated by the other player and just wanted to get off the green.  

 

Caveats aside, it was still really helpful.  Just getting the zero lines, knowing generally how far i was from that, and having a rough idea of how much break to expect based on that, left me getting a lot closer on putts compared to if I had just eyeballed it like normal.   I did the full out routine a few times, using the charts and all.  There was one particular putt, from about 15 feet out and on the fringe, that I was about to play to a few inches of break, but then i stopped and went through the AimPoint routine.  I quickly realized it was a dead straight putt and I sank it.  That was a really exciting moment.

 

With more practice, i really think this is going to make me into a significantly better putter.  

 

Speed:   Unless you normally just walk up to your putts, take a peek standing behind the ball and hit it, Aimpoint won't slow you down.  You can see the anchors when walking up to the green which tell you where to expect the inflection points to be.  When you get to the ball you just have to find the inflection point, guestimate how far you are from it, guestimate the slope, and peek at the chart.  The last three things there can be accomplished in less than 10 seconds.  The first might take another 10.  

 

Frustrations:  I went out to a practice green after work yesterday.  I went to one hole, marked the zeros, then the 90s and started hitting balls using the chart.  I noticed that one 90 was perfect, but the other was way off.  Later I read on John Graham's website that 90 isn't necessarily perpendicular to the zeros, its really the point in that vicinity where the ball would be level with the hole.  That's sort of the conclusion i had come to by trying different spots on the green, but why wasn't this part of the instruction?  And if 90 isn't perpendicular, then are 30 and 60 not really 30 and 60 degrees, but rather 1/3 and 2/3 towards the level 90?  I think that's probably right because I was having trouble with my 30 and 60 putts on that side of the whole.

 

(It was really cool to set up 8-10 feet away, hitting downhill at about 45 degrees, aim for a tee i stuck in the ground 7 or 8 inches from the hole, and sink a couple in a row, center cup.)

 

Like I mentioned, I think it could have been a 45 minute clinic if the class size was cut in half and people were given some homework to do before hand.  I could get a one our private lesson for less than half of what I paid for the aimpoint clinic.  I realize that's not how something like this is going to work, but having read all of the small bits of information on the internet ahead of time, I usually felt like i understood and wanted to move onto the next point.  I did notice that others were still conceptualizing though, so I understand why it couldn't move faster.  But to me, that's the difference between a personal lesson and a clinic.  Only $200 is a lot of money for a clinic, in my opinion, when the instruction isn't going to be customized to me or move at my pace.  

 

I also think there needs to be a book.  Especially now that i've taken the class, and I have questions, it would be nice to be able to have something to refer to for the purposes of refreshing my memory of fine tuning the points as i start to gain a better understanding.  Just like the example i mentioned about the 90 degree point, which I learned in a blog post on John's website.  Maybe if they just had a instruction book that covered everything that is supposed to be in level one and gave that to you after the class for reference.   I didn't really get to try out everything we were taught, so when I go home and do try it, I'm left with questions.  

 

Also, we only did planar reads.  There was some discussion about saddles and crowns, but only that they have 4 zeros.  Not how to play them.  And my understanding is that the aimchart only works for planar greens.

 

My last concern is that I don't think we were really taught how to find the zero line.  I think we were taught how to find the inflection point at 5-10 feet, which is more or less the zero line at that point.  But if zero lines move, i don't really know how to find those.  I think I read something about finding the point at 5 feet, then again at 10 feet, etc, but I don't remember that being covered at all.  

 

Overall Impression:  I should be clear that I am totally sold on aimpoint.  Totally.  I think i wrote more about what frustrated me simply because it takes more words to explain than simply saying "holy shit, it works," and because the things I dont understand are on my mind more than the things that i do.  But I am VERY high on AimPoint and would recommend it to anyone.  I'm really excited to work on it and improve my application of the techniques I learned.  

 

 

Edited by dsc123 - 4/27/11 at 12:21pm
post #28 of 376
Thorough, honest review. Thanks for that.

Suggest you register for the AimPoint forum on their Web site, as there is a lot of good material there. You will need to get a code from your instructor to access the green-reading section where most of the meat is.
post #29 of 376
Thread Starter 

To be fair, its very possible that some of the things that I said were not covered--i.e. reading other green shapes, zero lines beyond 10 feet, and the 90 degree thing--may have been briefly touched upon and I might have missed it or not appreciated it in the moment.  And I don't mean to criticize the instructor; he was very good and knew his stuff.  I would go back to him.  I think it was the clinic dynamic, where you have to get everyone to understand point A before you can move onto point B, and the lack of a real opportunity to try ourselves, that may have prevented him from giving those particular issues more thorough attention.  

 

But again, and i can't stress this enough, even with the limited time that i put into this, I am totally sold on AimPoint's green reading method.

 

Stretch--I will definitely sign up for the forum.  I had seen it before but didn't know how to get into the useful part.  That could be a cure to all of my frustrations/concerns, if there is a good forum to answer my questions.

 

 

post #30 of 376

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dsc123 View Post

That's sort of the conclusion i had come to by trying different spots on the green, but why wasn't this part of the instruction?

 

Perhaps it should have been, but you did a good job of recognizing the issue and solving it on your own, so kudos there.

 


Quote:
Originally Posted by dsc123 View Post

Like I mentioned, I think it could have been a 45 minute clinic if the class size was cut in half and people were given some homework to do before hand.

 

a) people won't do homework beforehand

b) an instructor isn't going to send a list of links to people to read beforehand

c) it's possible you may have been able to book a one-hour private lesson with the instructor. You can probably do that going forward.

 

I think that practice is a good thing, too. You're there not just to get information, but to get some time in practicing it. That's not to say your feeling isn't wrong - again you did some homework ahead of time. I felt the same way in my training - I already knew a good chunk of the info. But obviously most students aren't quite that diligent to do extra work on their own.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dsc123 View Post

I also think there needs to be a book. Especially now that i've taken the class, and I have questions, it would be nice to be able to have something to refer to for the purposes of refreshing my memory of fine tuning the points as i start to gain a better understanding.

 

You didn't get a student workbook?

 


Quote:
Originally Posted by dsc123 View Post

Also, we only did planar reads. There was some discussion about saddles and crowns, but only that they have 4 zeros.  Not how to play them.  And my understanding is that the aimchart only works for planar greens.

 

That's correct. 90%+ of the putts you'll have inside of 20 feet or so are planar, so there's still a huge benefit there. And perhaps not you, but most people's minds are somewhat blown after the two-hour class you took, so throwing in crowns and saddles and whatnot would not go over well. They're "Level II" or "Advanced" concepts.

 

FWIW, the "Fundamentals way to Read a Crown" is to do a combo read. Treat both sides of the crown as a plane and do a combo read to the top of the crown.

 


Quote:
Originally Posted by dsc123 View Post

Overall Impression:  I should be clear that I am totally sold on aimpoint. Totally. I think i wrote more about what frustrated me simply because it takes more words to explain than simply saying "holy shit, it works," and because the things I dont understand are on my mind more than the things that i do.  But I am VERY high on AimPoint and would recommend it to anyone.  I'm really excited to work on it and improve my application of the techniques I learned.  

 

Great stuff!

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dsc123 View Post

Stretch--I will definitely sign up for the forum.  I had seen it before but didn't know how to get into the useful part.  That could be a cure to all of my frustrations/concerns, if there is a good forum to answer my questions.

 

Have your instructor pass along your username and they'll give you access to the student part of the forum.

post #31 of 376

http://johngrahamgolf.com/ seems to have a pretty comprehensive overview of this stuff. Its a bit confusing to me and is probably something better taught in person but for someone whos already taken a lesson or thinking of taking one It def seems like a good read.

post #32 of 376
Thread Starter 

I did get the student workbook, and it is helpful.  I guess I just thought the book could address the deeper intricacies, maybe some of the deeper science behind it or the exceptions or extra wrinkles.  But I guess that's what practice and level two are for.

 

I think the description of the level I class on the aimpoint website made me think it was going to cover saddles and crowns as well, but I guess that just mean identifying them.  But you're right, if 90% of the greens are planar, its not a big deal.

 

I won't say another negative word about it!  The clinic was great, the instructor was great, and the system is great.  

 

LankyLefty--When I said I read everything I could find, that basically means I read John Graham's blog.  Its just about the only source I could find.  

post #33 of 376

If I had 200 extra dollars I would certainly like to do one of those. Sounds like you had a good experience. I am a little sceptical on how its possible to get all that information as you play. I see that you could certainly study it to become second nature though. This sounds like it would be extremely fun to figure out on your own, it doesn't seem like the science is very complicated.

 

Has anyone compared slope measuring capabilities of a cell phone device to that of a real slope measuring device?

post #34 of 376

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jshots View Post

This sounds like it would be extremely fun to figure out on your own, it doesn't seem like the science is very complicated.


Complicated? Not really. Tedious, exacting, and so on? Yes. Plus you'd be several years behind. The numbers aren't what matter...

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jshots View Post

Has anyone compared slope measuring capabilities of a cell phone device to that of a real slope measuring device?


They tend to suck. Phones are small so tiny bumps can throw them off quite a bit.

 

post #35 of 376
Thread Starter 

my andriod phone came with a bubble level than can be set to % of slope, but without an actual level i have no way of knowing if it is accurate.  I read some where that some carpenter compared it to a really expensive digital level and that it performed just as well, but I find that hard to believe.  Like Erik said, a small bump would make a big difference.

 

I got access to the forum last night, and I really think that will be a great resource to answer any questions that come up as I work on the techniques.  That eliminates just about all of my frustrations/concerns about my experience.  

 

 

 

post #36 of 376
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post

But I am confident that once you learn the basics, you'll find it's pretty eye-opening.

 

I encourage others to post.


 

I'll post more when I'm back at my place and can think out a full post, but I went to an AimPoint seminar today and it was fantastic.  Jason was amazing, and I really feel I got enough out of today's 3 hours (there was a free 1 hour intro and then the paid 2 hour course that reviewed that and then gave more).  

 

The 1 hour intro was at 11, and then the 2-hour started at 2, so I attended a demo day (lots of companies at this event, although the AimPoint seminars were on secluded greens, free of distractions) and had lunch for the two hours in between.  In the full seminar, he asked me (and one other person who had taken a full one before) to not go with everyone else for finding a straight 5-footer at first, but instead to go and find it after they had.  Sure enough, I found it and nailed the putt.  And I hadn't been thinking of AimPoint actively for the two hours between.

 

In any case, I've learned a lot about how to do good putting, even if I forget the book.  And, oddly, yesterday was my first ever eye doctor visit that didn't end in "20/20," so I'm getting glasses (Transition lenses, too), but now am not as worried about making sure I can read a green through the tint, because the tint isn't in my shoes.

 

Long story short:  I think I have a better chance in my club championship next week because of this.  Oh, and all the rounds I play after that for the next however many years.

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