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AimPoint Green Reading - Page 4

post #55 of 369

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post

I agree, but I have a question: what would you write?

 

"Golfers who attend a Fundamentals class will learn to find the straight putts!" People think they can already do that (though they can't). You still have to make the stuff sound appealing. It's not very sexy when you're talking about it - when you're DOING it and you're realizing how magical it can all be, then yeah, it's sexy... but how do you make green reading sexy on a website?

 

Just playing devil's advocate. To be honest it's tough to tell people what it is, why it's so awesome, etc.

 

I re-read the website yesterday and watched the intro video again and I think that's the issue; the website is technical, technical and more technical. It needs to show bog-standard golfers the end results more than the technical side of it. The current video is good as a follow-up to explain some of the details but it's generally a long talk to a classroom; although the subject matter is interesting, the talk isn't until you're already interested.

 

The guy who taught our class on Saturday, Jamie has a few "Ooh nice!" videos on AimPoint which get the idea across a little more:

 

 

Also the clinic details page is simply a bullet point list of arbitrary words that make little sense unless you've already done a load of research into AimPoint via Google, YouTube etc. There's nothing on there to describe what the class entails.

 

There's no distinction between the "AimPoint Education" bulletpoint lists on the Green Reading page and the "Designations" bulletpoint lists on the Clinics page either. One should be obviously for students wanting to become better putters but the site doesn't seem to show which is which very easily.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stretch View Post

There are no AimPoint instructors anywhere near my neck of the woods, so I've had to make do with what I can get in picking up the framework.

 

...

 

Second, the iPhone app will do most of the work for you (and includes instructional videos which answered several of my additional questions.): $30.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MiniBlueDragon View Post

I'd suggest taking manual note of the charts off the app if it has them for use in any tournament play where the iPhone is banned. a4_sad.gif

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dsc123 View Post

I think you can buy an aim chart from mark sweeney.  That seems easier and possibly cheaper, if you dont already have the app.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post

You should have gotten a chart in your class...? Did you, MiniBlue?


Yep I got one and the Student Workbook on Fundamentals. I think the thread here though is because the guy has no instructors nearby?
 

post #56 of 369

Also here's my report for first time out using AimPoint yesterday on my local 9 hole:

 

  1. Ball position: 15 feet from pin.
    Manual read: 2 inches left of cup.
    AimPoint read: 14 inches left.
    Putted. Nice pace. Rolled 1 inch left of cup and stopped 2 inches behind.
    Total putts: 2
  2. Ball position: Right of green by 5 feet
    Chipped in. Go me!
    Total putts: 0
  3. Ball position: Right fringe, 10 feet from pin.
    Manual read: 6 inches right
    AimPoint read: 3 inches right
    Missed 3 inches left and stopped 6 inches behind left. No idea what went wrong. Pulled it?
    Total putts: 2
  4. Ball position: 10 feet from pin.
    Manual read: 3 inches left.
    AimPoint read: Straight.
    Putted straight but assumed slope would take it on further. Stopped 3 feet short. Perfect line.
    Total putts: 2
  5. Ball position: 10 feet from pin.
    Manual read: Straight.
    AimPoint read: Straight.
    Started putt too hard and pulled back mid swing so as to not overhit.
    Under hit by 5 feet. What an idiot.
    Total putts: 2
  6. Ball position: 10 feet from pin on edge of green.
    Manual read: 6 inches left
    AimPoint read: 12 inches left
    Putted with nice pace. Stopped 1 inch short of hole but perfect line.
    Total putts: 2
  7. Ball position: 15 feet from pin far edge of green.
    Manual read: 2 feet right
    AimPoint read: 1 foot right
    Putted too soft and fell 3 feet short. Putt broke 1 foot left as predicted.
    Forgot about AimPoint and estimated 3 inches right.
    Rushed putt and lipped out to 6 inches behind.
    Total putts: 3
  8. Ball position: 15 feet from pin.
    Manual read: 1 feet right.
    AimPoint read: 6 inches right.
    Putted and putt went straight. Bad reading of zero line!
    Total putts: 2
  9. Ball position: Stayed on lower tier of green with pin on upper tier, 10 feet from pin.
    Manual read: 1 foot left
    Tiered green confused me with AimPoint so read it as normal.
    AimPoint read: 1 foot left.
    Putted 1 inches left of cup and 4 inches long.
    Total putts: 2


TOTAL PUTTS: 17

Lessons learned:

- Stop the putt if it feels like bad pace!
- Buy a putting mirror to check swing path while practicing.

- Double-check lower inflection point on hole 8.

post #57 of 369

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MiniBlueDragon View Post

Yep I got one and the Student Workbook on Fundamentals. I think the thread here though is because the guy has no instructors nearby?


Yep, I agree. Might have misunderstood what they were asking. It'd be tedious but you could create your own charts from the app, yes.

 

Also, I passed along some of your constructive feedback on the AimPoint site.


Quote:

Originally Posted by MiniBlueDragon View Post

 

Lessons learned:

- Stop the putt if it feels like bad pace!
- Buy a putting mirror to check swing path while practicing.

- Double-check lower inflection point on hole 8.


Work on your pace to all sorts of holes. Check the Aim Bias thread and consider changing up the weight of your putter, either in the head, grip, or both. Weight will have a huge effect on how well you can consistently roll the ball.

post #58 of 369

I shot a new personal best of 72 yesterday with 7 birdies after only 3 rounds of using Aimpoint...yea I'm sold on it :)

post #59 of 369
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post

 


Yep, I agree. Might have misunderstood what they were asking. It'd be tedious but you could create your own charts from the app, yes.

 

Also, I passed along some of your constructive feedback on the AimPoint site.



Work on your pace to all sorts of holes. Check the Aim Bias thread and consider changing up the weight of your putter, either in the head, grip, or both. Weight will have a huge effect on how well you can consistently roll the ball.


Excellent. Hopefully it helps people realise the benefit of AimPoint. c2_beer.gif

 

Yesterday was just a bad round for me. Generally my putting's pretty good and so is my pace but for some reason I was second-guessing everything I did, hence the pulling-back mid-putt several times. The main reason for the putt mirror is to confirm that I'm taking the club back and through correctly. Feel is not always real but it feels as though I take the putter back on an arc but through straight. It feels like the backswing is correct for a blade putter but the through swing is one of a mallet putter. lol

 

The putter's an iWi Anser so if need be I can buy weights and play with those but it feels correct as it is and with lack of an Edel fitter this side of the pond I don't think I'll get much better. b2_tongue.gif

 

Oh and I may be missing something but is there any point in seeking out Anchor Points for straight planar putts? When you aproach the ball it's normally pretty obvious whether it's above or below and the Zero Line will be different to the anchors anyway so it seems to serve little purpose at the moment. The workbook says they're used when making certain green reads which I assume to be Saddles and Crowns.

post #60 of 369

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MiniBlueDragon View Post

Oh and I may be missing something but is there any point in seeking out Anchor Points for straight planar putts? When you aproach the ball it's normally pretty obvious whether it's above or below and the Zero Line will be different to the anchors anyway so it seems to serve little purpose at the moment. The workbook says they're used when making certain green reads which I assume to be Saddles and Crowns.


Planar surfaces can tilt, bend, and turn a little. Almost never at 5 feet, maybe 5% at 10 feet, 10% at 15 feet, and 20% at 20 feet or so. So there's some validity to it, because rarely is a green truly the same plane all the way from hole to your ball.

post #61 of 369
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post

Planar surfaces can tilt, bend, and turn a little. Almost never at 5 feet, maybe 5% at 10 feet, 10% at 15 feet, and 20% at 20 feet or so. So there's some validity to it, because rarely is a green truly the same plane all the way from hole to your ball.



I'm still confused then (not surprisingly if you ask my wife). I've identified my slope %, I've found my zero line in relation to the cup, I've identified my putt angle and distance and I've read the aimpoint figure to putt it. What use is the Anchor to me, even at 20ft?

post #62 of 369

I have really bad eyes.  And as I get older it gets worse so I have to rely on other telling things to use when I play golf.  Instead of just seeing breaks I use my feet to feel how the green is sloped and simply confirm it with my eyes.  Most of the time it works.  I can see what I feel and then put accordingly.  Pace is also a concern but predicting where the ball will go I think is the difference between a two put and a three put.  Getting closer to the hole just gives me the confidence I need when standing over that put instead of just hoping to get it close.  

post #63 of 369
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MiniBlueDragon View Post

Also here's my report for first time out using AimPoint yesterday on my local 9 hole:

 



Awesome post!

post #64 of 369
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post

 


Planar surfaces can tilt, bend, and turn a little. Almost never at 5 feet, maybe 5% at 10 feet, 10% at 15 feet, and 20% at 20 feet or so. So there's some validity to it, because rarely is a green truly the same plane all the way from hole to your ball.


Raises an interesting question. How do you read a putt where the basic orientation is the same, but the slopes vary markedly? I had one today, downhill, in the middle of a tier. Steep slope right to left for the first five feet or so, same way but far flatter for the remaining 10 feet. Do you read back from the hole to the right spot on the "transition point" between the two planes (or whatever the correct term may be) and then just try and feed the ball into that? And how should you think about break versus how fast the ball is traveling at the start and end of the putt?

post #65 of 369

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MiniBlueDragon View Post

I'm still confused then (not surprisingly if you ask my wife). I've identified my slope %, I've found my zero line in relation to the cup, I've identified my putt angle and distance and I've read the aimpoint figure to putt it. What use is the Anchor to me, even at 20ft?

 

I don't know what I am supposed to share and what I'm not, but let me explain this quickly here... hopefully. :-)

 

Consider this image. The hole is at the top, the ball is at the bottom ON the zero line, which curves. The arrows indicate the direction of the slope. It's a planar surface but the planes aren't all stacked or in the same exact direction. No saddles or crowns here - just a "bent" planar surface if you want to call it that.
 

bent_zero.jpg

 

Now, if you were to walk the circle (dark blue) you'd properly discover the "inflection point" is four feet to your right. After all, that's the point at which, on this particular slope, you go from walking down to walking up.

 

However, the low anchor is directly behind your ball... so that gives you a clue that the zero line is bent somewhere. At the hole it's going to the left, then the zero line bends towards the low anchor. Does it bend all the way over to the red arrow? Nope.

 

So this is a case where being aware of the low anchor is relevant - the zero line generally connects a point near the pin-specific high anchor, goes through the hole (or else it's not a zero line), and then ends up generally near the pin-specific low anchor.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ringworld View Post

I have really bad eyes.  And as I get older it gets worse so I have to rely on other telling things to use when I play golf. Instead of just seeing breaks I use my feet to feel how the green is sloped and simply confirm it with my eyes.  Most of the time it works. I can see what I feel and then put accordingly. Pace is also a concern but predicting where the ball will go I think is the difference between a two put and a three put.  Getting closer to the hole just gives me the confidence I need when standing over that put instead of just hoping to get it close.

 

You should take an AimPoint class. It sounds like you've already got the walking part down!
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stretch View Post

Raises an interesting question. How do you read a putt where the basic orientation is the same, but the slopes vary markedly? I had one today, downhill, in the middle of a tier. Steep slope right to left for the first five feet or so, same way but far flatter for the remaining 10 feet.

 

You average the slope.

 

It's tough to believe but imagine you have a 4% slope for 10 feet of a putt and then a 1% slope for 20 feet of a putt. That averages out to 2% slope for the whole putt, and the ball will curve the same amount as a 30 foot putt on a pure 2% slope.

 

This one boggles people's minds, but works too. Imagine a hypothetical green where there's 50 feet of left-to-right cross-slope and then the same exact 50 feet of right-to-left cross slope for a 100 foot putt. Same amount of slope on both parts, and the ball instantly crosses through exactly where the two slopes meet and switch. The aim for this putt is dead straight. The second half of the putt will indeed "break more" - about twice as much, in fact - because it isn't starting out traveling at the hole. It's starting out traveling to the right.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stretch View Post

And how should you think about break versus how fast the ball is traveling at the start and end of the putt?

 

You don't have to worry about that. The average slope is all that really matters.

post #66 of 369
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post

 

 

I don't know what I am supposed to share and what I'm not, but let me explain this quickly here... hopefully. :-)

 

Consider this image. The hole is at the top, the ball is at the bottom ON the zero line, which curves. The arrows indicate the direction of the slope. It's a planar surface but the planes aren't all stacked or in the same exact direction. No saddles or crowns here - just a "bent" planar surface if you want to call it that.
 

bent_zero.jpg

 

Now, if you were to walk the circle (dark blue) you'd properly discover the "inflection point" is four feet to your right. After all, that's the point at which, on this particular slope, you go from walking down to walking up.

 

However, the low anchor is directly behind your ball... so that gives you a clue that the zero line is bent somewhere. At the hole it's going to the left, then the zero line bends towards the low anchor. Does it bend all the way over to the red arrow? Nope.

 

So this is a case where being aware of the low anchor is relevant - the zero line generally connects a point near the pin-specific high anchor, goes through the hole (or else it's not a zero line), and then ends up generally near the pin-specific low anchor.


OK so if the inflection point is the red arrow, I'd use this as my zero line assuming I didn't find the low anchor and then do the normal calculation, let's say a 3% slope, 10' from the pin at 30 degrees. I'd then aim 4 inches left of the cup edge and assuming my pace and aim were correct the ball would go where if the actual zero line is where my ball is? Also how would the inflection point not be on the actual zero line?

 

Is this better directed at my AimPoint instructor or the student forum rather than using up your time? a2_wink.gif

 

post #67 of 369

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MiniBlueDragon View Post

Is this better directed at my AimPoint instructor or the student forum rather than using up your time? a2_wink.gif


Probably. I'm not sure my diagram "clicked" properly... I'd ask them.

 

I'm just saying that the zero line will sometimes curve (rarely at 10 feet), and that if you walk the navy blue circle you might feel an inflection point slightly off from the true zero line.

post #68 of 369

this is way to complicated for me. honestly, i am very good with imagining lines, angles, shapes, but i can't imagine anything your talking about. For me this is way to technical for me. honestly, i rather not think about all that on the course, my mind would go crazy and i would forget one thing and i am toast. 

post #69 of 369

OK I think, thanks to one of my misses on the last round I played I understand kinda what you mean.

 

Using your diagram above, if the perimeter being walked anti-clockwise from 9 o'clock to 6 o'clock had a very subtle downward slope of say 1% or is even completely flat and then jumps upward to a 4% slope at the exact 6 o'clock position, that would be read as an inflection point and therefore assumed to be a zero line. In reality however the zero line could be a few feet back around the perimeter where the slow or non-existent slope is.

 

The anchor point is a good extra check point for assumptions on the zero line.

 

(I think?)

 

EDIT: Created a BluTac green to explain. Never seen a BluTac green before have ya? a2_wink.gif

 

BluTacGreen

 

Imagine the ball is directly above the red 'x'

 

With the above, if you were walking the perimeter of the cup anti-clockwise you'd walk into the blue area and it would feel flat. You'd keep walking until approximately the pink line, at which point the slope changes and you feel an inflection point. Without a low anchor point estimate ('x' on the image), you'd then assume that the zero line was the pink line and aim accordingly.

With a low anchor point estimate however you'd see that the zero line is similar to the one in your diagram above iacas.

 


Edited by MiniBlueDragon - 5/11/11 at 10:43pm
post #70 of 369
Quote:
Originally Posted by saevel25 View Post

this is way to complicated for me. honestly, i am very good with imagining lines, angles, shapes, but i can't imagine anything your talking about. For me this is way to technical for me. honestly, i rather not think about all that on the course, my mind would go crazy and i would forget one thing and i am toast. 


Apologies for being blunt, but you haven't taken a class, so it's not surprising that some of the terminology is over your head. I'm answering a specific question from a student who knows what the terms mean, and when he understands what I'm telling him, will be a better green reader. I absolutely guarantee you that you'd find an AimPoint class worthwhile in the first 20 minutes. We'll be doing a number of them in the Cleveland area this year - if we get to the point where we are handing out charts and you don't understand what's going on and you've asked a question or two and still don't get it, you can leave without paying. 20-25 minutes, tops.

 

Per the reviews above and per the reviews I've read and my own experiences, you'll be missing out.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MiniBlueDragon View Post

OK I think, thanks to one of my misses on the last round I played I understand kinda what you mean.

 

I still don't think we're understanding each other.

 

If the green slopes in the direction of the orange arrows, then bends to the direction of the green arrows, then bends to the direction of the blue arrows, the zero line would be approximately where the black thick arrow is (your ball's sitting on the zero line). This means it's a straight aim putt - the ball will break to the right first and then to the left, but the aim is straight.

 

Anyway, since the direction of slope bends slightly, if you were to walk the zero line in a perfect radius at the distance of your golf ball, you'd feel an inflection point where the red arrow is, when in reality that's not where the zero line is. The assumption you make when you find the "inflection point" is that the zero line hasn't bent much to get there. If it has, as I've shown, then the inflection point isn't really on the zero line. It's close - because zero lines don't bend much from even 20 feet out - but it's not exact.

 

In this case, if you could see where the low anchor is, you might be able to visualize the bend in the zero line and correctly realize that it's a little bit to the left.

 

In reality this doesn't affect things too much - my zero line in this drawing has a heck of a lot of bend to it for only a 20 foot putt. I'm exaggerating it to make the case clearer. In reality zero lines won't bend quite this much from 20 feet.

 

P.S. Two things.

  1. If this still doesn't make sense, ask me in chat sometime.
  2. Did you "roll balls" to find the zero line past 20 feet?
post #71 of 369
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post

I still don't think we're understanding each other.

 

If the green slopes in the direction of the orange arrows, then bends to the direction of the green arrows, then bends to the direction of the blue arrows, the zero line would be approximately where the black thick arrow is (your ball's sitting on the zero line). This means it's a straight aim putt - the ball will break to the right first and then to the left, but the aim is straight.

 

Anyway, since the direction of slope bends slightly, if you were to walk the zero line in a perfect radius at the distance of your golf ball, you'd feel an inflection point where the red arrow is, when in reality that's not where the zero line is. The assumption you make when you find the "inflection point" is that the zero line hasn't bent much to get there. If it has, as I've shown, then the inflection point isn't really on the zero line. It's close - because zero lines don't bend much from even 20 feet out - but it's not exact.

 

In this case, if you could see where the low anchor is, you might be able to visualize the bend in the zero line and correctly realize that it's a little bit to the left.

 

In reality this doesn't affect things too much - my zero line in this drawing has a heck of a lot of bend to it for only a 20 foot putt. I'm exaggerating it to make the case clearer. In reality zero lines won't bend quite this much from 20 feet.

 

P.S. Two things.

  1. If this still doesn't make sense, ask me in chat sometime.
  2. Did you "roll balls" to find the zero line past 20 feet?


Thanks iacas. I think I've just been bad with my explanation of my understanding. From reading my BluTac example and comparing it to your description above we're on the same page completely, the sum of which is a "false" zero line which would be more apparent to someone who had found the lower anchor point than someone who hadn't.

 

Both the true and false zero lines would have been played as a straight putt anywhere along their length.

 

To combine your example with mine may show you what I was badly describing:

 

BluTacGreen2.jpg

 

Walking counter-clockwise through the blue section you'd arrive at an inflection point when you hit the red arrow.

With no lower anchor estimated you'd assume that you were on the zero line, calculate your aim and then putt and miss.

With an anchor point you're more likely to realise that you walked past the anchor a few feet back and that it's more likely to be a zero line back there than the "false" one you felt.

 

Thanks for all the help! a3_biggrin.gif

 

Oh and yup to both.

post #72 of 369

I get your point about the terminology being over my head, no issue there.

 

Is this all functional while playing, or do you need to spend practice time developing % slopes, finding inflection points, and anchor points before playing a round? Honestly, i play alot of courses just once, and this sounds alot tedious to do in your round, especially if you never played the golf course before. I can see this being helpful for a pro and caddie who have time to play the course a few times before the tourniment.

 

 

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