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AimPoint Green Reading - Page 5

post #73 of 398
Quote:
Originally Posted by saevel25 View Post

I get your point about the terminology being over my head, no issue there.

 

Is this all functional while playing, or do you need to spend practice time developing % slopes, finding inflection points, and anchor points before playing a round? Honestly, i play alot of courses just once, and this sounds alot tedious to do in your round, especially if you never played the golf course before. I can see this being helpful for a pro and caddie who have time to play the course a few times before the tourniment.

 

 

Pre-round you can determine the Stimp using the putting green which narrows down your charts to 4. Then from there it can all be done on the fly in minimal time:

 

- From your approach shot position you should be able to see and estimate the upper and lower anchor points and decide where on the green you're shooting for.

- As you walk toward the green you can get a better idea on the anchors and also judge how far above/below the cup your ball is for slope %. You can even estimate the required zero line on the approach walk.

 

- When you reach the green you can confirm slope % estimate at the same time as finding the required inflection point by a simple 180 degree walk around the cup at the same distance as your ball from it.

- You then glance at the anchor to make sure it's a legitimate zero line, check your chart (which you'll already have in your hand), put the chart away and putt.

 

20 seconds I'd say; 30 seconds tops for straight planar putts.

 

Of course it won't be quite as effective as if you'd played there before and made not of high/low anchors, probably pin positions, possible zero lines, found the exact Stimp rather than estimating etc but it'll be more than good enough.

 

I used AimPoint again today and I was putting like an idiot. All but one single putt I under-powered on the 9 holes, some as much as by half but I still walked off with 19 putts for the round (2, 1, 3, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 3) - None of them were closer than 10'. With AimPoint even my VERY bad putting enabled me to walk away with an average of 2.11 putts per hole. Every put was on line to go down if the pace was right.

post #74 of 398

Dammit... MBD, I guess you have talked me right into it.  I need to call the one person in metro Atlanta that teaches this.  Too bad he is over an hour away.  g2_eek.gif

post #75 of 398

So you have to carry around these charts with you. Doesn't that take some of the fun out of the game. Well of course pro's have there yardage books. I guess i never really used anything but course markings, GPS, and pacing off to get my yardages. so i wouldn't be suprised to see charts i guess.

 

Hmm, i might have to check out one of these seminars sometime.

 

I found a blog that describes it better, though i think they pretty much violated copy right laws, but oh well thats his problem.

 

how would you take this situation. Par 3, brookside country club, canton ohio, donald ross design. This hold is a short par three, but a devil of a green. There is a mound that runs vertical through the left third of the green were it flattens out to the top. The green has a severe back to front slope, and balls will roll off the front of the green. This is a scramble we take my ball, which is on the right side of this mound, above it on the fringe at the top of the green. The pin is on the left side of the mound near the bottom of the green. I was first to go, my read was not to go above the mound, because i doubt it would have the speed. I know all the putts would funnel towards the hole. So i had to use the mound to add a little speed to my putt. But that did mean aiming up away from the hole. I am wondering how you handle putts like those were the geometry of the green is out of the charts. My putt, came up three feet short and it was going dead center. My one friend, didn't make the mound and his ball went off the green, very fun hole. 

 

A similar situation is on the number 15 hole on my local course. If the pin is back center, and hit to the center of the green, or slighly right of the hole, you have to aim away from the hole and die it in, or your going 5-7 feet past the hole. There is not stopping it if you take a direct path at the hole. That means aiming nearly 5 feet right of the hole. Are these situations just anamolies you have to guess with or can aimpoint account for these.

post #76 of 398

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MiniBlueDragon View Post

BluTacGreen2.jpg

 

Walking counter-clockwise through the blue section you'd arrive at an inflection point when you hit the red arrow.

With no lower anchor estimated you'd assume that you were on the zero line, calculate your aim and then putt and miss.

With an anchor point you're more likely to realise that you walked past the anchor a few feet back and that it's more likely to be a zero line back there than the "false" one you felt.

 

Yes. Perfect. Again, this almost never happens on even a 20 foot putt, but it can happen on longer putts you want to read as planar. The closer you are to the low anchor, the better it is to use it. Eventually you'll start to see the zero line - dropping and rolling the balls on practice greens will help speed up this process. Find the low inflection point at five feet and roll balls from there.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by saevel25 View Post

Is this all functional while playing, or do you need to spend practice time developing % slopes, finding inflection points, and anchor points before playing a round?

 

Both. If you want to be an AimPoint rock star you can map your course's greens out in a few minutes per hole during a practice round one day.

 

But you can apply all of this - increasingly so as you become more comfortable and understand the system better (quite frankly, the faster you can get away from "the way you used to read greens" the better) - on the course immediately. This thread (IIRC) has tales of people applying it on day 1.

 


Quote:
Originally Posted by saevel25 View Post

Honestly, i play alot of courses just once, and this sounds alot tedious to do in your round, especially if you never played the golf course before. I can see this being helpful for a pro and caddie who have time to play the course a few times before the tourniment.

 

It's more helpful to them, because they can note subtle features like crowns, but it will also help people playing a course once. The architect tries to fool you. You think a putt breaks left, and AimPoint tells you at the very least that it breaks right, and that's without using the chart at all. Glance at the chart and you learn it breaks eight inches right.

 

How that could fail to help you I don't know...

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MiniBlueDragon View Post

I used AimPoint again today and I was putting like an idiot. All but one single putt I under-powered on the 9 holes, some as much as by half but I still walked off with 19 putts for the round (2, 1, 3, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 3) - None of them were closer than 10'. With AimPoint even my VERY bad putting enabled me to walk away with an average of 2.11 putts per hole. Every put was on line to go down if the pace was right.


Great. Time to work on some speed drills eh? :-)

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by saevel25 View Post

So you have to carry around these charts with you. Doesn't that take some of the fun out of the game. Well of course pro's have there yardage books. I guess i never really used anything but course markings, GPS, and pacing off to get my yardages. so i wouldn't be suprised to see charts i guess.

 

Using GPS is virtually the same thing. You're just getting a number. I mark my 1/4, 1/2, 3/4 and full swing yardages on my wedges (on the shaft), and checking those doesn't make golf less fun.

 

Take the fun out of the game? I've found it to be the opposite. How fun is it to think a putt breaks left when it breaks right? You feel like an idiot. That's not fun.

 

It's fun to make putts. And AimPoint gives you the chance to make a lot more putts.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by saevel25 View Post

A similar situation is on the number 15 hole on my local course. If the pin is back center, and hit to the center of the green, or slighly right of the hole, you have to aim away from the hole and die it in, or your going 5-7 feet past the hole. There is not stopping it if you take a direct path at the hole. That means aiming nearly 5 feet right of the hole. Are these situations just anamolies you have to guess with or can aimpoint account for these.

 

The pin's likely cut on a slope of more than 4%. You can find charts for that if your course has a lot of those... but frankly the superintendent should get a letter and not cut pins on slopes that steep if he has the option to put them elsewhere. There's no actual "rule" about it, and on some greens it's virtually impossible to find a flatter spot. I have a few like that too. On older courses built when the stimp was 6 it's simply unavoidable.

post #77 of 398
Quote:
Originally Posted by saevel25 View Post

So you have to carry around these charts with you. Doesn't that take some of the fun out of the game. Well of course pro's have there yardage books. I guess i never really used anything but course markings, GPS, and pacing off to get my yardages. so i wouldn't be suprised to see charts i guess.


You don't have to carry the charts with you, but it's not really different from carrying around a map of the greens or a list of your planned tee shots for the round. But if you forget the chart, even knowing where straight is, and thus the break direction of surrounding putts, you'll be in better shape.

My only complaint about the chart book is that it says it's legal under the rules, but doesn't list which rule. I guess I should look up the rule number and put a post-it in the book that I keep in my bag.
post #78 of 398


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shindig View Post

My only complaint about the chart book is that it says it's legal under the rules, but doesn't list which rule. I guess I should look up the rule number and put a post-it in the book that I keep in my bag.


hmmm... now this is interesting.  So it is legal to carry this chart?  It seems to me that it would be illegal.

 

Iacas, MBD, Stretch - Do you think you can memorize these charts without having a photographic memory?  Since I have not ever seen a chart other than the picture on 3Jacks site, I dont know how hard that would be.   I guess what I am getting at is what if the USGA make the chart illegal?  Would AimPoint still be usable in some manner?  Could you just carry a "yardage book" with handwritten charts and numbers in it?  

 

 

post #79 of 398
Quote:
Originally Posted by Double Bogey View Post


 



hmmm... now this is interesting.  So it is legal to carry this chart?  It seems to me that it would be illegal.

 

Iacas, MBD, Stretch - Do you think you can memorize these charts without having a photographic memory?  Since I have not ever seen a chart other than the picture on 3Jacks site, I dont know how hard that would be.   I guess what I am getting at is what if the USGA make the chart illegal?  Would AimPoint still be usable in some manner?  Could you just carry a "yardage book" with handwritten charts and numbers in it?  

 

 


It's perfectly legal to carry notes in any form. You can keep a library of instructional books in your bag, if you want.

There are plenty of folks in my club who don't know the rules. I can see someone making a fuss about it during a tournament, particularly C-flight. That's why I wish it said "Legal under rule X-Y" instead of just saying it's legal.
post #80 of 398

Cool, thanks for the clarification

post #81 of 398

Well the issue is, that green is nasty to begin with, there's basically no flat spots, and in the summer its hell. It gets hard, and fast. These greens drain way to well, even after 5+ inches over normal there not soggy at all, and after one dry day they started to speed up alot.

 

But that 15th hole is a nasty sucker, short 300 yard par 4, but if the pins front right, and your above it, you can tap your putt and it will go 4 feet past the hole. In the middle of the green there is another funnel, back of the green is hell. I like it alot, its fun to putt on.

 

I was just curious if AimPoint helps out with slopes like that, Yea, this all sounds interesting. I will have to take a look into it. Does Aimpoint put up lesson dates on there website? Or would i have to find an instructor first.

post #82 of 398

The actual "it's legal" letter is available on the student forum. I'll have a peek later and paraphrase for you.

 

EDIT: Here it is:

 

Quote:

Decision: 2009-65.

 

Dear Mr Sweeney:

 

This is in reference to the Aim Chart, received on January 26, 2009, which you submitted for an official ruling. This is a chart indicating the break amount and direction on standard and planar green surfaces.

 

Please be advised that the chart, as submitted, has been evaluated and it has been determined that it conforms to the Rules of Golf.

 

This ruling applies only to the sample submitted and any item manufactured identical to it. This ruling does not apply if there is any change in the design, manufacturer, material or construction of this device. If a device of similar design, with identical markings is acquired from any source and found to fail USGA standards, then the conformance status of the sample will be reviewed.

 

In advertisements of the Aim Chart, you are authorized to make the statement: "Permitted under the Rules of Golf" or "Allowable under the Rules of Golf." Use of the USGA seal or logo and or/statements such as "USGA Approved" or "USGA Tested" is prohibited.

 

We are retaining a sample as a record of this decision. The USGA reserves the right to change the Rules and interpretations regulating equipment at any time.

 

Sincerely,

 

{signature}

 

Dick Rugge

Senior Technical Director

 

 

Iacas yup, speed drills time. I like the three coin drill from the AimPoint blog to begin with. Any others you can think of?

 

Clinic dates and areas are put up on the AimPoint website and those clinics link to instructors. Should bs fairly easy to find one near(ish) you I hope. I travelled for about an hour to mine.


Edited by MiniBlueDragon - 5/12/11 at 3:32pm
post #83 of 398
Quote:
Originally Posted by saevel25 View Post

Does Aimpoint put up lesson dates on there website? Or would i have to find an instructor first.



http://aimpointgolf.com/clinics.asp

post #84 of 398
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamo View Post





http://aimpointgolf.com/clinics.asp


I shouldn't whine too much here since there are many states that are shut out altogether for AimPoint clinics, but for a state the population of California with as many golfers as we have there are a woefully small number of clinics here, and many of those are for members only at country clubs.    C'mon Aimpoint, we have a lot of golfers here!!!

 

post #85 of 398

 


Quote:
Originally Posted by Double Bogey View Post

hmmm... now this is interesting.  So it is legal to carry this chart?  It seems to me that it would be illegal.

 

Why? They're legal because they're just numbers on a piece of paper. And you've still gotta interpret them correctly AND actually hit the putt. a2_wink.gif

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Double Bogey View Post

I guess what I am getting at is what if the USGA make the chart illegal?  Would AimPoint still be usable in some manner?  Could you just carry a "yardage book" with handwritten charts and numbers in it?  

 

That's why they won't ever make them illegal. It wouldn't make any sense. What, you'd have to carry a hand-written AimPoint chart instead? What sense would that make?

 

Again, you can carry ANY WRITTEN INFORMATION with you so long as it's produced before the round begins (or you write it yourself during the round - someone can't hand you a note with swing tips on it during the round).

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shindig View Post

There are plenty of folks in my club who don't know the rules. I can see someone making a fuss about it during a tournament, particularly C-flight. That's why I wish it said "Legal under rule X-Y" instead of just saying it's legal.

 

Fair enough man. Print the letter the other guy posted. a3_biggrin.gif

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MiniBlueDragon View Post

Iacas yup, speed drills time. I like the three coin drill from the AimPoint blog to begin with. Any others you can think of?

 

Make a rectangular box a foot "deep" and putt into it from various distances. You could even start from five feet, then do every two feet out from there. Try to get every ball to stop between the front and back string.

post #86 of 398
Thread Starter 

The discussion about the anchors was very insightful.  Thank you.

post #87 of 398

I have yet to hear back from the instructor in my area, but I played a nine hole mini scramble last night and just used the info that you guys have posted (and what I have read on other sites) about finding the zero line.  Just this info alone has really helped me.  My "team" was talking through which way a putt would break and I used the finding the zero line mentality to know that it was a fairly straight putt, when it really looked as if it was going to go right.  It was using the zero line instead of just noticing the "fall line."  The putt was straight due to the double break.  EUREKA!!!

 

Maybe I will hear back from the only instructor near me.  Maybe this AimPoint system is not so bad.  a3_biggrin.gif

 

EDIT TO ADD: Heard back from the instructor.  No clinics scheduled at the moment, boo! 


Edited by Double Bogey - 5/13/11 at 2:54pm
post #88 of 398

This thread reminds me a lot of the book, Vector Putting, by H. A. Templeton. 

 

It's hard to find, the only copy you might get your hands on is from a library.

post #89 of 398
Thread Starter 

I finally bought a level.  I've only messed around with it once on a practice green, but I immediately realized how valuable it was.  I was working on a hole that I thought was cut on about a 2% slope but turned out to be 4%.  That of course meant that i thought i was working on a green with a faster speed than i was, so my speed and slope reads were off.  I'll have to calibrate my estimates.  I did feel a bit like an ass pulling out a level on the practice green, but I got over it.  

 

Using it really took the precision to another level.  I still can't get over how awesome it is to set up 20 feet away, on a 4% slope at 60 degrees downhill, and watch it curl right in on the first try.  I just get a huge smile on my face and I feel like I'm cheating.  Of course, i still miss 80%+ of those putts, but its always a lot closer.

 

On the course, I haven't been using the chart as much as I should be.  I pull it out 4-5 times a round.  Basically, if I have a 30+ foot putt, i should be doing a breakline read but instead i just smack it.  I use aimpoint to the degree that i notice where the zero's are, but then just estimate.  I also tend not to use it on 4 footers or less, bc i prefer to hit it straight and hard to the back of the cup.  I realize that goes against what i was taught, but my short putting has improved drastically since I started doing that.  I did pull it out yesterday to sink a 20 foot birdie putt.  I actually didn't trust the chart's number, aimed a little lower, and barely caught the bottom of the cup.  When will I learn?

 

So even though I think i've been half-assing my aim point, and not having as accurate slope/speed estimates as I should....the improvement is dramatic:

 

Avg putts prior to aim point clinic:  36.1. (19 rounds)

Avg putts since aim point clinic: 32.2. (6 rounds)

 

I think i've improved my pitching in that time, but my chipping has probably gotten worse, so i think just about all of that improvement is pure putting.

 

 

 

post #90 of 398

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dsc123 View Post

I finally bought a level.  I've only messed around with it once on a practice green, but I immediately realized how valuable it was.  I was working on a hole that I thought was cut on about a 2% slope but turned out to be 4%.  That of course meant that i thought i was working on a green with a faster speed than i was, so my speed and slope reads were off.  I'll have to calibrate my estimates.  I did feel a bit like an ass pulling out a level on the practice green, but I got over it.

 

I know what you mean about feeling like an ass. Just wait until you start to measure some of the pin positions at your home course. :-) But the nice thing is that if you play at the same few courses, you can map at least the entire practice green and then putt to one of holes each time you go and, with your map, you won't need to measure. As carpenters don't say, "Measure once, determine stimp forever." :-)

 


Quote:
Originally Posted by dsc123 View Post

Using it really took the precision to another level. I still can't get over how awesome it is to set up 20 feet away, on a 4% slope at 60 degrees downhill, and watch it curl right in on the first try.  I just get a huge smile on my face and I feel like I'm cheating.  Of course, i still miss 80%+ of those putts, but its always a lot closer.

 

So even though I think i've been half-assing my aim point, and not having as accurate slope/speed estimates as I should....the improvement is dramatic:

 

Avg putts prior to aim point clinic:  36.1. (19 rounds)

Avg putts since aim point clinic: 32.2. (6 rounds)

 

Very good. Thanks for the continued updates.

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