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The Dan Plan - 10,000 Hours to become a pro golfer - Page 80

post #1423 of 1762
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastmode87 View Post

What I don't understand is if this experiment upsets you or you think it's foolish why do you continue to follow Dan religiously? Why do people care if money is being donated to him? It isn't your money so who cares.

I love how people too criticize how he began his training by just putting. Like he should've know better or something. The guy hadn't even picked up a club until 4 years ago how would he know what deliberate practice is. That's why it's called trial and error. Give the guy credit for putting himself out there and trying something that 99% of the people on here are incapable of. At least he is trying for a goal (even if it is unrealistic) instead of sitting here playing Monday morning quarterback like the rest of you.

Considering the fact that I, in the last four years (since freshman year of high school, considering it a "re-start" as I relearned the entire swing etc.) have accomplished more than him (lower handicap and better tournament scores) while also juggling school and robotics, it shows that he knows very little about deliberate practice and showed no desire to learn about it. When he quit his job to play golf, you'd expect he would at least bother to put in the time and effort to figure out how he should go about learning the game. He has no other responsibilities, so he might as well perform his one duty well enough for it to be worthwhile.

post #1424 of 1762

What I was trying to say is that everyone comes back to the point that his time spent putting at the beginning was a waste. To assume that he knew what was needed at the immediate beginning of this experiment is just not realistic. He started it literally with no knowledge of the game and has gone from there. To say he has not put in time and effort into this experiment is just a foolish statement. He has gone about many different avenues to learn about the game and what it takes to get better. It seems that no matter what he does it is not enough for some people. People were criticizing his mental side of the game for his poor tournament scores. He then goes to a seminar regarding the mental side of the game and to help him improve upon it and the same people now say it is a waste of time.  At least be consistent in your analysis. You say you have made more progress than him in less time while omitting the fact that you had already played the game and are younger than him. Saying that you a re-creating your entire swing and constituting that as a "re-start" as to compare yourself to someone picking up a club for the first time 4 years ago is just not a realistic comparison. You had already played the game since this "re-start" so hence you were light years ahead of him. The comparison isn't even close.

post #1425 of 1762
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastmode87 View Post
 

What I was trying to say is that everyone comes back to the point that his time spent putting at the beginning was a waste. To assume that he knew what was needed at the immediate beginning of this experiment is just not realistic. He started it literally with no knowledge of the game and has gone from there. To say he has not put in time and effort into this experiment is just a foolish statement. He has gone about many different avenues to learn about the game and what it takes to get better. It seems that no matter what he does it is not enough for some people. People were criticizing his mental side of the game for his poor tournament scores. He then goes to a seminar regarding the mental side of the game and to help him improve upon it and the same people now say it is a waste of time.  At least be consistent in your analysis. You say you have made more progress than him in less time while omitting the fact that you had already played the game and are younger than him. Saying that you a re-creating your entire swing and constituting that as a "re-start" as to compare yourself to someone picking up a club for the first time 4 years ago is just not a realistic comparison. You had already played the game since this "re-start" so hence you were light years ahead of him. The comparison isn't even close.

Anyone with a brain and internet access could have looked up some of the best ways to start out as a beginner. I guarantee that you'll not find a single place that recommends you putt from 2' out for days before moving on to longer putts. 

 

I didn't omit those facts, I left them in there without stating them since other comments I made appeared to make them seem obvious. I was merely pointing out that there are much faster routes to improvement than the one he took, and it wouldn't have taken much time or effort for him to find them.

post #1426 of 1762
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pretzel View Post
 

Considering the fact that I, in the last four years (since freshman year of high school, considering it a "re-start" as I relearned the entire swing etc.) have accomplished more than him (lower handicap and better tournament scores) while also juggling school and robotics, it shows that he knows very little about deliberate practice and showed no desire to learn about it. When he quit his job to play golf, you'd expect he would at least bother to put in the time and effort to figure out how he should go about learning the game. He has no other responsibilities, so he might as well perform his one duty well enough for it to be worthwhile.

 

To be fair to Dan, he has to grease the media machine. IMHO, this is probably more time consuming than it sounds, the interviews, making sure you're still "in the spotlight" to keep the donations coming, etc... 

post #1427 of 1762
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastmode87 View Post
 

What I was trying to say is that everyone comes back to the point that his time spent putting at the beginning was a waste. To assume that he knew what was needed at the immediate beginning of this experiment is just not realistic. He started it literally with no knowledge of the game and has gone from there. To say he has not put in time and effort into this experiment is just a foolish statement. He has gone about many different avenues to learn about the game and what it takes to get better. It seems that no matter what he does it is not enough for some people. People were criticizing his mental side of the game for his poor tournament scores. He then goes to a seminar regarding the mental side of the game and to help him improve upon it and the same people now say it is a waste of time.  At least be consistent in your analysis. You say you have made more progress than him in less time while omitting the fact that you had already played the game and are younger than him. Saying that you a re-creating your entire swing and constituting that as a "re-start" as to compare yourself to someone picking up a club for the first time 4 years ago is just not a realistic comparison. You had already played the game since this "re-start" so hence you were light years ahead of him. The comparison isn't even close.

 

Many of our statements were completely the opposite of this.

 

We have been saying he spent a lot of time practicing, and that whatever many of the rest of us are doing is way more efficient.

post #1428 of 1762
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pretzel View Post
 

Considering the fact that I, in the last four years (since freshman year of high school, considering it a "re-start" as I relearned the entire swing etc.) have accomplished more than him (lower handicap and better tournament scores) while also juggling school and robotics, it shows that he knows very little about deliberate practice and showed no desire to learn about it. When he quit his job to play golf, you'd expect he would at least bother to put in the time and effort to figure out how he should go about learning the game. He has no other responsibilities, so he might as well perform his one duty well enough for it to be worthwhile.

Exactly. I am progressing STILL and putting in time on the range/course while I have a stay at home wife and 2 kids to support as well. He does need to learn how to learn the game. If you can learn how to practice correctly, you can improve pretty quick with some athletic ability and hand eye coordination. I have no idea how he isn't better than he is unless he just doesn't practice as much as he says he does or maybe he doesnt care enough to put in some real focus on the swing. I think he is learning a thousand things a minute from 20 different people and it really isn't going to help. Learn one small thing, make it natural, move to the next small thing. That's how it has been for me at least. No lessons, no guru's of the game, I haven't read a book yet on this game but I have watched videos on Youtube. I just take small things that could fix whatever the weakness is, try them out, see which one works, and the one that does gets put into the golf swing over about a month of practice. Then on to the next weakness. Anyways, I think he is just along for the ride and he doesn't care enough to learn himself. I give lessons every once in awhile, but my main goal is to teach the player how to teach themselves. That way when I am not standing right next to them, they know why they made a slice or a hook and then can adjust because they can diagnose the problem on their own. Dan most likely hits the ball really well when an instructor is telling him what to do but I bet that changes when he is on his own and doesn't know how to teach himself to fix the problem. Obviously I am speculating, but for him to put in this much time and still not be able to get a little better there is something wrong. I am a firm believer that if you can touch a 5-6 handicap you can get down to scratch with a lot of hard work. If you are at a 5 or 6 then you have somewhat of a solid foundation to build a swing on. 

post #1429 of 1762

You were comparing your rate of improvement to his, while stating that you basically started off at the same place which was not true. If I am not mistaken didn't he hire a coach at the beginning of this and the putting practice was said coaches' recommendation? If that is the case, it's pretty hard to go against the advice of someone who teaches the game for a living when you are just starting out.

 

I just don't get why people get so worked up over this guy and the fact that people donate to him. It isn't your money so why all the hate? I saw someone make a statement earlier saying that Dan is taking away sponsorship money from so called more deserving golfers. I am just curious as to who these golfers are? If they are good enough you would think they would get sponsorships regardless of what Dan is getting.

post #1430 of 1762
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastmode87 View Post
 

You were comparing your rate of improvement to his, while stating that you basically started off at the same place which was not true. If I am not mistaken didn't he hire a coach at the beginning of this and the putting practice was said coaches' recommendation? If that is the case, it's pretty hard to go against the advice of someone who teaches the game for a living when you are just starting out.

 

I just don't get why people get so worked up over this guy and the fact that people donate to him. It isn't your money so why all the hate? I saw someone make a statement earlier saying that Dan is taking away sponsorship money from so called more deserving golfers. I am just curious as to who these golfers are? If they are good enough you would think they would get sponsorships regardless of what Dan is getting.

Who was comparing? I think we all started off in the same place- not golfing ever before. 

post #1431 of 1762
Quote:
Originally Posted by GHIN0011458 View Post
 

Exactly. I am progressing STILL and putting in time on the range/course while I have a stay at home wife and 2 kids to support as well. He does need to learn how to learn the game. If you can learn how to practice correctly, you can improve pretty quick with some athletic ability and hand eye coordination. I have no idea how he isn't better than he is unless he just doesn't practice as much as he says he does or maybe he doesnt care enough to put in some real focus on the swing. I think he is learning a thousand things a minute from 20 different people and it really isn't going to help. Learn one small thing, make it natural, move to the next small thing. That's how it has been for me at least. No lessons, no guru's of the game, I haven't read a book yet on this game but I have watched videos on Youtube. I just take small things that could fix whatever the weakness is, try them out, see which one works, and the one that does gets put into the golf swing over about a month of practice. Then on to the next weakness. Anyways, I think he is just along for the ride and he doesn't care enough to learn himself. I give lessons every once in awhile, but my main goal is to teach the player how to teach themselves. That way when I am not standing right next to them, they know why they made a slice or a hook and then can adjust because they can diagnose the problem on their own. Dan most likely hits the ball really well when an instructor is telling him what to do but I bet that changes when he is on his own and doesn't know how to teach himself to fix the problem. Obviously I am speculating, but for him to put in this much time and still not be able to get a little better there is something wrong. I am a firm believer that if you can touch a 5-6 handicap you can get down to scratch with a lot of hard work. If you are at a 5 or 6 then you have somewhat of a solid foundation to build a swing on. 

That is definitely a lot of speculating haha. I think his last few poor rounds have really put his handicap into question, and rightfully so. If he was a 2.6 or whatever it is right now I would say that is pretty solid for being a little over halfway to the 10k hours. One of the main issues I had is that after his poor tournament scores people ripped him for not being mentally tough or have the mental game needed for tournament play. Then he goes to a seminar to work on that aspect and is immediately ripped again as people were saying it was a waste of time. It is tough to gauge what he is practicing just from a quick blog update every couple days.

post #1432 of 1762
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastmode87 View Post
 

You were comparing your rate of improvement to his, while stating that you basically started off at the same place which was not true. If I am not mistaken didn't he hire a coach at the beginning of this and the putting practice was said coaches' recommendation? If that is the case, it's pretty hard to go against the advice of someone who teaches the game for a living when you are just starting out.

 

I just don't get why people get so worked up over this guy and the fact that people donate to him. It isn't your money so why all the hate? I saw someone make a statement earlier saying that Dan is taking away sponsorship money from so called more deserving golfers. I am just curious as to who these golfers are? If they are good enough you would think they would get sponsorships regardless of what Dan is getting.

 

I'm not getting worked up as I don't think others are - they're just calling it like they see it. You want vitriol, get people talking about the financial crisis or the situation in the Middle East.

 

IMHO, he is being disingenuous - his mission statement talks about deliberate practice, but I haven't learned much from him about it. I thought the spirit of the plan was in the learning, it's become a hitting the mark, positive vibes thing.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by beastmode87 View Post
 

That is definitely a lot of speculating haha. I think his last few poor rounds have really put his handicap into question, and rightfully so. If he was a 2.6 or whatever it is right now I would say that is pretty solid for being a little over halfway to the 10k hours. One of the main issues I had is that after his poor tournament scores people ripped him for not being mentally tough or have the mental game needed for tournament play. Then he goes to a seminar to work on that aspect and is immediately ripped again as people were saying it was a waste of time. It is tough to gauge what he is practicing just from a quick blog update every couple days.

 

I thought the majority view here (and in other places I frequent) was he should have played more tournaments and started playing them earlier. And these days, with all the sports professionals having some kind of psychology guru in their entourage, the ubiquity of the importance of mental strength, Dan didn't think to look into the mental side earlier? 

post #1433 of 1762
Quote:
Originally Posted by GHIN0011458 View Post
 

Who was comparing? I think we all started off in the same place- not golfing ever before. 


I was talking about Pretzel saying he has made more progress than him over the same amount of time, but that was not true. He had already played the game before his so called "re-start". I am just curious how long have you played? How long did it take you to get to your handicap? For me personally I started playing when I was 22 after I graduated college. I am 27 now. I played about 10 rounds the summer when I was 22 and never broke 100 and never really played the next 5 years. I just began to seriously play golf this summer and have taken lessons since March and hit the range 4/5 times a week along with working out with a TPI certified trainer 1-2 times a week. In just these past few months I have got my handicap down to 22.6 and broke 90 for the first time the other day. Obviously, being a 20+ capper doesnt put me in position to be giving suggestions, but one of the main things that has helped me is increasing my strength and mobility/flexibility through working out (I played hockey and lacrosse in college so I have an athletic background). This has helped me increase my distance off the tee and with my irons that has really helped my scores lately. Reading through Dan's blog I havent really seen any mention of a workout plan or anything of that nature. I think he could definitely benefit from that type of routine as he is a smaller guy (just around my size and I am 5'9").

post #1434 of 1762
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastmode87 View Post
 

You were comparing your rate of improvement to his, while stating that you basically started off at the same place which was not true. If I am not mistaken didn't he hire a coach at the beginning of this and the putting practice was said coaches' recommendation? If that is the case, it's pretty hard to go against the advice of someone who teaches the game for a living when you are just starting out.

 

I just don't get why people get so worked up over this guy and the fact that people donate to him. It isn't your money so why all the hate? I saw someone make a statement earlier saying that Dan is taking away sponsorship money from so called more deserving golfers. I am just curious as to who these golfers are? If they are good enough you would think they would get sponsorships regardless of what Dan is getting.

 

Why wouldn't they compare themselves against Dan?

 

The issue is not just that sponsorship is taken away from more deserving golfers as much as all this publicity, but it trivializes the talents and efforts of truly talented golfers.

 

There is no hate, really. Some of us are just marginalizing him and his efforts and expect him to fail that's all.

 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by beastmode87 View Post
 


I was talking about Pretzel saying he has made more progress than him over the same amount of time, but that was not true. He had already played the game before his so called "re-start". I am just curious how long have you played? How long did it take you to get to your handicap? For me personally I started playing when I was 22 after I graduated college. I am 27 now. I played about 10 rounds the summer when I was 22 and never broke 100 and never really played the next 5 years. I just began to seriously play golf this summer and have taken lessons since March and hit the range 4/5 times a week along with working out with a TPI certified trainer 1-2 times a week. In just these past few months I have got my handicap down to 22.6 and broke 90 for the first time the other day. Obviously, being a 20+ capper doesnt put me in position to be giving suggestions, but one of the main things that has helped me is increasing my strength and mobility/flexibility through working out (I played hockey and lacrosse in college so I have an athletic background). This has helped me increase my distance off the tee and with my irons that has really helped my scores lately. Reading through Dan's blog I havent really seen any mention of a workout plan or anything of that nature. I think he could definitely benefit from that type of routine as he is a smaller guy (just around my size and I am 5'9").

 

Okay, I see your perspective on his efforts.

 

As I mentioned earlier, a true 10 handicap is not bad.

 

Many of the people on this site like @Pretzel and @GHIN0011458 are talented, and it will be difficult to compare yourself with them. No matter how much effort you put into it, if you do not have the talent, it will be hard for you to make the low single digits, much less scratch. Pretzel is a high school Sophomore or Junior and GHIN is a pretty young father in his mid-low 20s.

 

I started in my 40s, and got from 30+ handicap to where I am now in less than 2 years.

 

There is no reason you can't get to the low teens or high single digits. That's already really good golf.


Edited by Lihu - 7/7/14 at 12:32pm
post #1435 of 1762
We keep mentioning the donations. From experience in the blogging field, my guess is that his donations are minimal. His speaking and sponcerships are certainly the bulk of the income. Having said that, my opinion would not change if he were getting 20k a month in donations.

I agree 10,000 hours is an arbitrary number. However, I believe at 10,000 hours of practice, even if he made some mistakes in methods, he will have a pretty acurate picture of what his ceiling in golf is.

Only 1 in a million (made up stat) is born with the physical and mental tools to be a pro golfer. Dan is making sure he is not that 1. More power to him.
Having a stretch goal that is unrealistic can be very motivating.


“It’s better to have tried and failed than to live life wondering what would’ve happened if I had tried” – Alfred Lord Tennyson
post #1436 of 1762
Quote:
Originally Posted by nevets88 View Post
 

 

I'm not getting worked up as I don't think others are - they're just calling it like they see it. You want vitriol, get people talking about the financial crisis or the situation in the Middle East.

 

IMHO, he is being disingenuous - his mission statement talks about deliberate practice, but I haven't learned much from him about it. I thought the spirit of the plan was in the learning, it's become a hitting the mark, positive vibes thing.

 

 

I thought the majority view here (and in other places I frequent) was he should have played more tournaments and started playing them earlier. And these days, with all the sports professionals having some kind of psychology guru in their entourage, the ubiquity of the importance of mental strength, Dan didn't think to look into the mental side earlier? 


Maybe he should've played tournaments earlier, but it is apparent he was not ready. I just feel like he identified a weakness recently (his lack of mental toughness) and then went about a way of trying to improve upon it. It may be one part of this game, but he was deliberate in that, but it is never good enough for most people here haha. Now the point is he should've done this earlier. I agree he could do a better job of describing his routine and providing a glimpse into what he is working on and what he does on a daily basis. All I am saying is that recently he did take an objective look at his "mental toughness" and has tried to improve upon it. I just don't see how people can hate on that.

post #1437 of 1762
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lihu View Post

Why wouldn't they compare themselves against Dan?

The issue is not just that sponsorship is taken away from more deserving golfers as much as all this publicity, but it trivializes the talents and efforts of truly talented golfers.

There is no hate, really. Some of us are just marginalizing him and his efforts and expect him to fail that's all.

If a person dedicates 10,000 hours to practice, grinding out practices rain or shine, seeking out swing and mental coaching, has sponsors helping him with the best fit equipment and still can not make it to even the lower levels of professional golf does that not highlight how talented the PGA guys really are?
post #1438 of 1762
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lihu View Post
 

 

Why wouldn't they compare themselves against Dan?

 

The issue is not just that sponsorship is taken away from more deserving golfers as much as all this publicity, but it trivializes the talents and efforts of truly talented golfers.

 

There is no hate, really. Some of us are just marginalizing him and his efforts and expect him to fail that's all.


You keep saying more deserving golfers. Do you have any you can name? It isn't like he is taking up sponsor exceptions on tour. If you are really good enough to get on tour you will.

 

If anything the publicity for Dan helps to grow the game if you ask me.

post #1439 of 1762
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastmode87 View Post
 

That is definitely a lot of speculating haha. I think his last few poor rounds have really put his handicap into question, and rightfully so. If he was a 2.6 or whatever it is right now I would say that is pretty solid for being a little over halfway to the 10k hours. One of the main issues I had is that after his poor tournament scores people ripped him for not being mentally tough or have the mental game needed for tournament play. Then he goes to a seminar to work on that aspect and is immediately ripped again as people were saying it was a waste of time. It is tough to gauge what he is practicing just from a quick blog update every couple d

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by beastmode87 View Post
 


I was talking about Pretzel saying he has made more progress than him over the same amount of time, but that was not true. He had already played the game before his so called "re-start". I am just curious how long have you played? How long did it take you to get to your handicap? For me personally I started playing when I was 22 after I graduated college. I am 27 now. I played about 10 rounds the summer when I was 22 and never broke 100 and never really played the next 5 years. I just began to seriously play golf this summer and have taken lessons since March and hit the range 4/5 times a week along with working out with a TPI certified trainer 1-2 times a week. In just these past few months I have got my handicap down to 22.6 and broke 90 for the first time the other day. Obviously, being a 20+ capper doesnt put me in position to be giving suggestions, but one of the main things that has helped me is increasing my strength and mobility/flexibility through working out (I played hockey and lacrosse in college so I have an athletic background). This has helped me increase my distance off the tee and with my irons that has really helped my scores lately. Reading through Dan's blog I havent really seen any mention of a workout plan or anything of that nature. I think he could definitely benefit from that type of routine as he is a smaller guy (just around my size and I am 5'9").

I started when I was 21. I am 27 now. After one year, I walked on to a college golf program at about a 10 handicap(D3). I played hockey in college as well my first year. I don't work out at all, just in the winters to lose the 15 lbs I gained over the summer lol. I am only 5'7 and I can hit the ball around 290, 4 iron is my 210 club.. etc. I do think working out will help, but it could also lead to more injuries. I have noticed that finely tuned athletes get hurt more often then the guys who put in minimal time at the gym. Look at pitchers back in the day, they would get one night of rest and pitch a whole game. Now guys get hurt and they pitch 6 innings every 12 days or whatever it might be. Look at Tiger vs Ernie Els. My goal is longevity and while I do think fitness is important, I am saving it until I am a +4 handicapper to push me over the edge into superstardom as a PGA Tour professional lol. 

post #1440 of 1762
Quote:
Originally Posted by GHIN0011458 View Post
 

 

I started when I was 21. I am 27 now. After one year, I walked on to a college golf program at about a 10 handicap(D3). I played hockey in college as well my first year. I don't work out at all, just in the winters to lose the 15 lbs I gained over the summer lol. I am only 5'7 and I can hit the ball around 290, 4 iron is my 210 club.. etc. I do think working out will help, but it could also lead to more injuries. I have noticed that finely tuned athletes get hurt more often then the guys who put in minimal time at the gym. Look at pitchers back in the day, they would get one night of rest and pitch a whole game. Now guys get hurt and they pitch 6 innings every 12 days or whatever it might be. Look at Tiger vs Ernie Els. My goal is longevity and while I do think fitness is important, I am saving it until I am a +4 handicapper to push me over the edge into superstardom as a PGA Tour professional lol. 


I was suggesting Dan work out not you haha. I was driving the ball at the beginning of the summer about 210-220, now I am up to a 250-260 average off the tee (I would have to look at my golflogix stats haha), but I am hitting my irons farther as well. I was just suggesting this as something I think could benefit Dan, but I have never seen any mention of this by him.

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