or Connect
TheSandTrap.com › Golf Forum › The Practice Range › Instruction and Playing Tips › Aim Bias and Putting Geometry
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Aim Bias and Putting Geometry - Page 2

post #19 of 79

Funny on the timing of this post.  I saved up some cash to get fitted and buy a brand new putter and was planning on going to Golf Galaxy or Golfsmith today to get fitted and buy a new putter. 

I read your post and search for the nearest Edel fitter and was extremely surprised there isn't anyone in San Diego?  Closest one is near LA, so not sure when I'd have time to go up.

 

Question- I know you're bias towards it, but honestly speaking, is there any significant difference between getting fitted by Edel vs Golf Galaxy/Golfsmith?

post #20 of 79

For me, i tend to try to find any break possible and play the highside. So i am hedging my putting. I do not mark my ball like i use to, because i am a perfectionist and it took me forever to get comfortable lining upt he ball the way i wanted it. Majority of my putting is feel, i can actually get a gut feeling of i am aimed were i want to.

 

I never really paid much attention to the putter design. I just go with what looks good to me. I am a simplest guy, one singe line. All those multi-lines and colors throw off my eye, it makes me dizzy.

post #21 of 79
Thread Starter 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flaming Moe View Post

Question- I know you're bias towards it, but honestly speaking, is there any significant difference between getting fitted by Edel vs Golf Galaxy/Golfsmith?


I'm biased because I did the research!

 

The Edel fitting cart (you saw the picture, right?) has 300 million combinations of putters. At Golf Galaxy/Golfsmith you have, what, 200 combinations of putters? 200 different putters sounds like a lot, but it's no 300 million, especially when most of their variations are strictly related to "this putter head or that one" or "this one is a different length."

 

Again, with an Edel, you can change:

  • shaft length
  • shaft flex
  • head weight
  • counterweight
  • mid-weight
  • head shape
  • hosel shape
  • hosel offset
  • lie angle
  • loft
  • lines/dots
  • grips

 

And I'm probably forgetting some. Any hosel can go with any other combination, which is why you get so many.

 

Additionally, every Edel putter is custom made for you. They don't have putters sitting around, and you KNOW that the putter not only "fits" you for your height and putting stance (which is about all you'll get from a big box retailer), but you'll KNOW that you can aim the darn thing too!

 

Here's the putter I'm having built for myself. It'll be a variable weight putter so on slower greens I can decrease the head weight and on faster greens add to it.

 

The weights are added when you're doing the speed testing (or else the big weight by the head would throw off the visual look and thus your aim).

 

erik_edel_address.jpgerik_edel_back.jpgerik_edel_counterweight.jpgerik_edel_face.jpgerik_edel_shaft.jpg

 
I hope to get it here soon. When I do I'll take more pictures and show off the custom stamping I had done.

post #22 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flaming Moe View Post


Question- I know you're bias towards it, but honestly speaking, is there any significant difference between getting fitted by Edel vs Golf Galaxy/Golfsmith?



Erik gave one answer highlighting the different combinations available with Edel, but Erik I think you're actually selling the Edel system short in a way.      I think the fundamental difference is that a typical fitting at GG or Golfsmith is more than just the number of combinations that can be tested; a typical fitting is just a "geometric fitting" whereas Edel is a "psychometric fitting".     Oooh, too many syllables, but let me explain.

 

A typical GG or GS fitting is simply adjusting the loft and lie of the putter to your stance and swing, combined with some playing around to find a head shape and weight that looks and feels good to you.      It doesn't take long, and you walk out with a putter that fits your geometry and may be aesthetically pleasing.       

 

In contrast, the Edel fitting addresses the pyschological aspects of your putting stroke and how your mind works in conjunction with that geometrically part addressed in a typical putter fitting.    As Erik showed in his photos, the mind interprets putter aiming for every one of us, and finding a putter that "fits the eye" really isn't about what looks attractive but what actually aims better.    Edel involves extensive experimentation to deal with not only the geometry but also how the mind is influenced by that geometry.     And if one agrees that the putting game is mostly mental, then one would have to conclude that the Edel methodology is really addressing that most important part of the game between the ears.

 

The difference between the two is enormous, sort of analogous between going to basic driver education to learn to drive a car or spending a weekend at the Bob Bondurant School for High Performance Driving.   

 

 

post #23 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flaming Moe View Post

Funny on the timing of this post.  I saved up some cash to get fitted and buy a brand new putter and was planning on going to Golf Galaxy or Golfsmith today to get fitted and buy a new putter. 

I read your post and search for the nearest Edel fitter and was extremely surprised there isn't anyone in San Diego?  Closest one is near LA, so not sure when I'd have time to go up.

 

Question- I know you're bias towards it, but honestly speaking, is there any significant difference between getting fitted by Edel vs Golf Galaxy/Golfsmith?



The nearest isn't actually in LA.  There's one in Aliso Viejo - about halfway to LA from you.  And in Irvine tomorrow, they're doing a demo of AimPoint, and the guy who is doing the demo also fits for Edel putters.  I'm going there.

post #24 of 79
Thread Starter 

Bear in mind that Edels cost about $350 for the basic putter and $500 for the Variable Weight models.

 

Are they worth it? I think so. Even the $500 one (which lets you change the weight - something you won't find in many other putters) starts saving you money if it saves you from buying two or three other putters.

 

Plus it's going to be your putter for 10, 20, 30+ years, and it's completely customized to you - not just psychometrically (or whatever :-D) and speed-wise and so on, but with your initials stamped in, your colors, and a few other things you can do.

 

It's truly "your putter for life" and lets you know that if you're pulling or pushing putts, you've got to address something in your stroke.

post #25 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post

Bear in mind that Edels cost about $350 for the basic putter and $500 for the Variable Weight models.

 

Are they worth it? I think so. Even the $500 one (which lets you change the weight - something you won't find in many other putters) starts saving you money if it saves you from buying two or three other putters.

 

Plus it's going to be your putter for 10, 20, 30+ years, and it's completely customized to you - not just psychometrically (or whatever :-D) and speed-wise and so on, but with your initials stamped in, your colors, and a few other things you can do.

 

It's truly "your putter for life" and lets you know that if you're pulling or pushing putts, you've got to address something in your stroke.


I don't think I've spent $350 on the three putters I've had so far in my golfing time.  However, each was bought used at about the $50 price point.  I realize full well I'm abnormal for the amount I haven't spent in putters.   I've somehow spent more on bags than putters.  

 

Still, it should pay for itself in skins earnings... or will, if my next club has skins games the way my current one does.  So far, my skins are mostly on birdies from close approaches.

 

I will need to pick my colors.  Current school's colors and next school's colors aren't the same.  Decisions decisions :)

post #26 of 79

DANG YOU ERIC!!  Now you've got the engineer in me all worked up.  So I did an experiment to see what my perceived aim was versus actual aim.  Below is my set up; a straight edge, square, putter, ball.  I also put a picture of my lab assistant, Skippy.  He was not much help.

 

Set up DTL.JPG

 

set up top.JPG

Skippy.JPG

 

I set the putter up to aim directly at the center of the ball.  The aim line on the putter is 8.5 cm from the base of the square, which is also on the straight edge.  The ball is 8.5 cm, center, from the straight edge.  The putter lie is how it use it, which is pretty much even toe and heel. 

 

From down the line, the putter is aiming directly at the center of the ball.  When I set up over the ball in my normal stance, it looks to me like my aim is 1/4 of the ball to the right, about 1 cm.  I repeated the set up by walking away and repeating.  I alway squared the putter on the back edge of the square and put the heel against the base of the square.  Again, it looks like 1 cm to the right of center of the ball.

 

The Math:

 

The putter face was 81 cm from the ball front.  Therefore, my perceived aim was INVTAN (1/81) or 0.7 degrees to the right.  Doesn't seem like much, but if I have a 3 meter putt, 300cm, then I will be off by TAN (0.7)*300 = 3.7 cm or about 1.5 inches.  I will be aiming a ball width to the left of where I think I am aiming on a 10 foot putt.

 

Now I have to go the the practice green and see if this works. 

post #27 of 79
Thread Starter 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by boogielicious View Post

DANG YOU ERIC!!  Now you've got the engineer in me all worked up.  So I did an experiment to see what my perceived aim was versus actual aim.  Below is my set up; a straight edge, square, putter, ball.  I also put a picture of my lab assistant, Skippy.  He was not much help.


I'm not sure I understand. What's the point of putting a t-square down? That changes the entire perception and geometry of what you see.

 

We've found that even if you try to do a putter fitting within six feet or so of a wall it's not as accurate because the wall will influence where you aim.

post #28 of 79

The T-square just takes place of a laser, which I don't have.  I wanted to set up an accurate alignment that I could place the putter against.  When the flange is against the square, then the alignment aid on the putter was pointing directly at the center of the ball.  What I noticed immediately was that from my stance, it did not look aligned even though from down the line it was on target.

 

This, of course, is not as sophisticated or accurate as the methods done by Edel or other putter fitting systems.  I just wanted to quickly see what my eye was seeing versus reality.

post #29 of 79

What you need to do is take some pictures. Take your normal stance, take a picture, then use a T-Square and take another picture. I would mark were your feet are at, everything so you can get only clubface difference. 

 

Knowing the length of the clubface you can proportion the measurements from a printout and find out how many degrees your off. 

post #30 of 79
Thread Starter 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by boogielicious View Post

The T-square just takes place of a laser, which I don't have. I wanted to set up an accurate alignment that I could place the putter against. When the flange is against the square, then the alignment aid on the putter was pointing directly at the center of the ball.  What I noticed immediately was that from my stance, it did not look aligned even though from down the line it was on target.

 

Okay, then what that tells you is that your putter geometry does not suit you.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by boogielicious View Post

This, of course, is not as sophisticated or accurate as the methods done by Edel or other putter fitting systems.  I just wanted to quickly see what my eye was seeing versus reality.

 

Okay, then that's good. :-) Just wanted to make sure...

 

I don't think it's possible to "train" yourself to see a putt straight, and even if it is possible, I'm not sure it's the best use of your time, practicing alignment... especially if you're going to switch putters in two years and destroy the work you did with the other putter.

post #31 of 79

Do you have to buy there putters? or can you use the info they give you to get another putter. What if you don't like the feel of the hit, thought you like there set up? 

post #32 of 79
Thread Starter 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by saevel25 View Post

Do you have to buy there putters? or can you use the info they give you to get another putter. What if you don't like the feel of the hit, thought you like there set up? 


Then you pay for the fitting and go buy another putter. Hopefully you write everything down exactly and can find that exact putter... not very good odds given how many things can be different.

post #33 of 79
Looks like no lefty stuff available on that fitting rack... :(
post #34 of 79
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicago Lefty View Post

Looks like no lefty stuff available on that fitting rack... :(


They have a few lefty carts. We're getting one in shortly as we have some lefties to fit. They cost about $9k, each cart... so they don't make a ton of 'em. :-)

post #35 of 79

Well my only concern is that, i really like the ball to face feel with my Odyssey putter. To me that is a huge reason my speed control has improved the past two years. I think i can accomidate my mis-alignment if that mis-alignment is consistant and i know i am missing to a certain side, my natural reading and alignment will slowly bring me back to making putts. 

post #36 of 79
Thread Starter 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by saevel25 View Post

Well my only concern is that, i really like the ball to face feel with my Odyssey putter. To me that is a huge reason my speed control has improved the past two years. I think i can accomidate my mis-alignment if that mis-alignment is consistant and i know i am missing to a certain side, my natural reading and alignment will slowly bring me back to making putts. 


If you're comfortable making compensations, be my guest man! :-) But they are compensations and you're going to need to make different ones with different putters.

 

Edels are made of a soft stainless steel just like every other good putter out there. I'm getting mine with the pixl insert which provides good ball speed to hits towards the toe or heel. I think they feel great, and the fitting process includes a big part devoted to distance control.

New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Instruction and Playing Tips
TheSandTrap.com › Golf Forum › The Practice Range › Instruction and Playing Tips › Aim Bias and Putting Geometry