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Aim Bias and Putting Geometry - Page 4

post #55 of 78

Hmm, round grip, i might try that, but i have been using a flat one for ages. I get what your saying on that though.

 

I agree, aim the putter face first than aim your body. Then at least your focus is on your putter face, in stead your body. That way you wont miss align your putter face to your body, you can still make a putt down the line with a misaligned body. I know alot of people who have open stances or closed stances and putt really well.

post #56 of 78
Erik (or anyone familiar with Edel putters),

You claim that we have biases in how we align ourselves that are pretty much wired in our brain (I can't find your exact post for a quote). I believe that, but I'm curious whether there have been case studies over time. Has anyone been studied over, say, two or three years to see if their putting alignment changes

I'm curious to know if, say, someone tends to set up 2* to the right and he comes back in two years later (and a few HDCP strokes better) and still aligns himself 2* right.
post #57 of 78
Thread Starter 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by B-Con View Post

Erik (or anyone familiar with Edel putters),

You claim that we have biases in how we align ourselves that are pretty much wired in our brain (I can't find your exact post for a quote). I believe that, but I'm curious whether there have been case studies over time. Has anyone been studied over, say, two or three years to see if their putting alignment changes

I'm curious to know if, say, someone tends to set up 2* to the right and he comes back in two years later (and a few HDCP strokes better) and still aligns himself 2* right.


Studies have been done, yes, but I will say that they've been more like "we fit you in this Edel putter 15 years ago, and do you still line it up properly?" The answer is yes overwhelmingly. David Edel told me that he's fitted so many guys and never had to change a putter he'd fit. One guy in Pebble Beach didn't really like the look of the putter he aimed, and every year at the AT&T the guy asks if his putter still lines up, and every year it does. He putts great with it, but he's still surprised that he fits into that putter.

 

I could ask David Edel for some more data or information if you'd like. But your eyes and your brain remain seeing things the same way - that was impressed upon us a fair amount during our training.

post #58 of 78

I agree with that, i am biased to the right. i have always aimed up further right than square, just have.

 

Is there any good way to check at home how your lining up with your putter.

post #59 of 78

sorry, had to give this thread a bump because its so pertinent to my putting dilemma. 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post

 

You need to get fit for a putter! :-)

 

Here's a question for you, Stretch: when your putter was aimed at the hole, did it "look" open or shut to you?

 

My putter literally ALWAYS looks shut to me when aimed at the hole. I've also noticed this to be the same (for the most part) with my irons. What does this mean? 

 

Also, if I take a putting stance that feels comfortable and natural, one that i "feel" is aimed at the hole, I end up pushing the ball left of my target 90 % of the time (i'm a lefty). How do i know that my problem is related to the optical illusions issue of a mis-fitted putter, or my stance, or stroke mechanics? Is there a way I can determine the main source of my problem thru some sort of process of elimination?

 

Lastly... As of late, I've been experimenting with lining up the ball to my target line this way: Assuming my putting line is dead straight at the hole, on a perfectly flat surface (hypothetically speaking) from a distance of 15 feet or so, I will get behind the ball, use the shaft of my club to "eye up" a straight line to the cup, and pick a spot a couple of feet in front of me to aim at. I will then sit behind the ball and use the line on my putter to "aim" at the spot I just picked out. Being very careful not to move the club face, I stand up and position my body around the putter, in a comfortable stance. The results? I still push it... usually. Is this a faulty way of lining up a putt? I would think with the putter lined up that way, I could trust that the club face is perpendicular to the target line, which would suggest faulty stroke mechanics... or is it possible that other factors are messing me up? 

 

Your thoughts are much appreciated. 

post #60 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by divot dave View Post

sorry, had to give this thread a bump because its so pertinent to my putting dilemma. 

 

 

My putter literally ALWAYS looks shut to me when aimed at the hole. I've also noticed this to be the same (for the most part) with my irons. What does this mean? 

 

Also, if I take a putting stance that feels comfortable and natural, one that i "feel" is aimed at the hole, I end up pushing the ball left of my target 90 % of the time (i'm a lefty). How do i know that my problem is related to the optical illusions issue of a mis-fitted putter, or my stance, or stroke mechanics? Is there a way I can determine the main source of my problem thru some sort of process of elimination?

 

Lastly... As of late, I've been experimenting with lining up the ball to my target line this way: Assuming my putting line is dead straight at the hole, on a perfectly flat surface (hypothetically speaking) from a distance of 15 feet or so, I will get behind the ball, use the shaft of my club to "eye up" a straight line to the cup, and pick a spot a couple of feet in front of me to aim at. I will then sit behind the ball and use the line on my putter to "aim" at the spot I just picked out. Being very careful not to move the club face, I stand up and position my body around the putter, in a comfortable stance. The results? I still push it... usually. Is this a faulty way of lining up a putt? I would think with the putter lined up that way, I could trust that the club face is perpendicular to the target line, which would suggest faulty stroke mechanics... or is it possible that other factors are messing me up? 

 

Your thoughts are much appreciated. 

Sounds to me your subconscious is affecting your stroke.  If you THINK your putter is aimed closed, your body will naturally correct to get the ball started on line that it intuitively sees as the correct one.  Therefore, your putter may be lined up well, and you push it. 

 

It could be your putter that is messing up your alignment, but I have another idea.  Your eyeline may be askew.  Your head may be tilted to the right (closer to your right shouder) which would make your eye line look right of target and thus making it appear your putter is closed.  This could be due to left eye dominance.  When you are rear-eye dominant the tendency is to lift your head off-axis and turn it when looking at the hole.  This procedure will skew your eye alignment.  It is best to look at the hole by maintaining your neck tilt and swivelling your head on axis.

 

if you have anymore questions...ask away!

post #61 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by MonarchGolf2010 View Post

Sounds to me your subconscious is affecting your stroke.  If you THINK your putter is aimed closed, your body will naturally correct to get the ball started on line that it intuitively sees as the correct one.  Therefore, your putter may be lined up well, and you push it. 

 

It could be your putter that is messing up your alignment, but I have another idea.  Your eyeline may be askew.  Your head may be tilted to the right (closer to your right shouder) which would make your eye line look right of target and thus making it appear your putter is closed.  This could be due to left eye dominance.  When you are rear-eye dominant the tendency is to lift your head off-axis and turn it when looking at the hole.  This procedure will skew your eye alignment.  It is best to look at the hole by maintaining your neck tilt and swivelling your head on axis.

 

if you have anymore questions...ask away!

 

This could be the case, I'll have to test that out when I get home.... but my initial thought here is that when I am looking down at my club which "appears" to be closed, there is no head tilt involved at this point as the club is directly below me. either way, i'll do some makeshift experiments tonight and report what I come up with.

 

Thanks for your reply. 

post #62 of 78
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by divot dave View Post

This could be the case, I'll have to test that out when I get home.... but my initial thought here is that when I am looking down at my club which "appears" to be closed, there is no head tilt involved at this point as the club is directly below me. either way, i'll do some makeshift experiments tonight and report what I come up with.

 

We've found that except for extreme setups (with really tilted eyelines, the eyes way inside or way outside the ball, etc.) this type of stuff is irrelevant. Our eyes perceive certain putters as open or closed when they're not, and though you can likely "train your eyes" and "learn to aim" that's always struck me as silly - why add a skill you need to keep refining in order to putt well when you can just get a putter that you aim well and be done with it? And no, your aim doesn't change over time, or at least, we've never seen it... unless you somehow get into a bizarre extreme setup position. :D

post #63 of 78

True, my aim never changes, mine has always been predominantly more right than i liked. If i don't really focus on getting square, on drives i can aim as much as 20 yards right of were i want to hit the ball. I played for years with a straight pull right, played really good golf this way, but i got tired of it :p

post #64 of 78
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by saevel25 View Post

True, my aim never changes, mine has always been predominantly more right than i liked. If i don't really focus on getting square, on drives i can aim as much as 20 yards right of were i want to hit the ball. I played for years with a straight pull right, played really good golf this way, but i got tired of it :p

 

Did you miss that this is a putting discussion? :)

 

That is indeed an aim bias but not really the same thing as what we're talking about here... :D

post #65 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stretch View Post

This is why I'm a spot putter. a1_smile.gif

 

Figure I have a better shot at rolling the ball precisely over a tiny target four inches away than precisely toward a larger target fourteen feet away.

 

I'm also a 2.1 degree right aimer, according to the SAM PuttLab machine, so I'd probably benefit from an Edel fitting if there was anyone within 6,000 miles to do one. Switching from my usual face-balanced mid mallet to a flanged blade seems to have helped recently. Likely dumb luck.

 

 

 

Just getting around to reading this post, but the quote above is true for me as well.

 

I think I'm a solid putter, and I think the reasons are because:

 

- I'm meticulous about repeating my setup over every putt.

- I gather as much information re: my read from others' ball actions, visuals as I approach the green, etc. (AimPoint, I'm sure, would also improve my green reading)

- I do my best to focus 100% on every putt regardless of length

- I try to disengage the 'thinking' side of my brain and just let myself stroke the ball as viscerally as possible after I've setup, aimed, and I am over the ball. After my last look at the hole, my backstroke is starting just as my head returns to its position over the ball. That may not make sense, but......

 

I recently switched putters. Old Faithful received some face damage off the golf course, and after trying several putters, I really liked a stick that had ~one shaft of offset. I immediately began missing putts...I'm sure for the reasons stated in the OP. I spent a few hours on the practice putting green making some mods to my setup, and I'm rolling it nicely now. Why didn't I just buy another putter with the same characteristics as my damaged putter? I guess I'm not that smart, plus I really liked the feel of the putter I decided to purchase.

 

Spot putting - for me - is the only way to go. To anyone that wants to try it, remember that the spot you pick to roll over must be as small as possible - I'd say no larger than the hole a tee makes when stuck into the ground. Also, when I practice putting, I rarely putt to a hole, but rather to a tee. Sometimes I'll jam two tees in the ground about 50% wider than the ball and putt through those.

 

Practice: At the very least, I practice putting both before and after every round (4x-5x/week) and when I go to practice on off days. I'd say I roll 2000+ putts per week, and I think that, more than anything, has made me a pretty solid putter. There's always room for improvement, though, right?

post #66 of 78

2.5 hours to the nearest fitter...damn...

 

 

i know im aimed right.  i put a small piece of mirror on the putter face and aimed it at the wall.  had the wife shoot the laser and i was pointed a good 3 inches out to the right.

post #67 of 78
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by colin007 View Post

2.5 hours to the nearest fitter...damn...

 

i know im aimed right.  i put a small piece of mirror on the putter face and aimed it at the wall.  had the wife shoot the laser and i was pointed a good 3 inches out to the right.

 

That's how you aim in a room with walls and furniture and perhaps a pattern on the flooring, etc. You may aim worse, better, or to the left outside on a putting green.

post #68 of 78
When someone is fitted for an Edel putter, within how consistent of a margin can they expect to line up their putter? Within a degree? Half degree?
post #69 of 78

This is a great thread, but it got me to thinking about something. Which of these things would improve my putting more:

 

1. Getting fitted for a new putter

 

2. Practicing putting more

 

Note - I barely practice putting like I do practice short game and full swing.

 

I'm expecting someone to give me the short answer ... both! But seriously, if you could do one of either spend more time practicing or just get fitted and not put in the practice time, which would yield the better result? I'm not sure.
 

post #70 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by 9iron View Post

This is a great thread, but it got me to thinking about something. Which of these things would improve my putting more:

 

1. Getting fitted for a new putter

 

2. Practicing putting more

 

One thing to think of is if you have a putter that really doesn't aim right for you or is otherwise not ideally suited for your swing, then all that practice time you do will be to build in compensations into your swing.    You'll likely be able to groove a repeatable stroke that works with that putter, but those little compensations will always be there and are susceptible to stress, adrenalin, pressure, etc.        If you have a putter first that you know really fits you and aims well, then you'll be grooving a much more solid putting stroke that will hold up better over time.   

post #71 of 78
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by shortstop20 View Post

When someone is fitted for an Edel putter, within how consistent of a margin can they expect to line up their putter? Within a degree? Half degree?

 

Well, we don't really measure it in degrees.


We also (at Golf Evolution) take care to line people up on breaking putts.

 

Inside a golf ball's width on ALL putts from 20 feet, that's our goal. We've never failed to meet it yet. I don't know how many degrees that is, but it's less than one... especially since it's +/- 0.83 inches (half the golf ball) at 20 feet.

post #72 of 78
I have an edel and at times convince myself that I miss putts by having the round grip. I then start worrying about being square and am not sure what to do to ensure that I am. I just received a Star putter tool and will take it out at first light and see if that does the trick. Any thoughts (about the round grip)?
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