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Putting Capture Speed - Page 2

post #19 of 39
Thread Starter 

Charlie is right (for once a1_smile.gif):

 

post #20 of 39

Yep, i agree, i had a putt the other day that it looked like 3/4ths of the ball hovered above the hole. I was ready to pick that sucker from the bottom of the cup. Thing ended up only about a foot past the hole. 

post #21 of 39

I missed this back in May.  Nice post Erik, great info.  Thanks for the tip.  It makes sense.  And one common sense note.  In regards to leaving them short, when you are rolling your putts 1.5 feet past, you get a little firm, lets say 2.5 feet past, you (me) really give yourself a very slim chance to make it.  So rolling it slower might leave a few short, but then your a little firmer and make an error of 2 feet past, you still got a good shot at making it.

 

Question:  Do you always try to roll the putt the same distance past? 

 

Me personally, I don't always try to roll it the same past.  If it is inside of 5 feet, I'm generally pretty firm (1.5 feet) and almost always want to not give the hole away.  Then when I get to the 10 to 20 feet, I just want to give it a chance and if I hit it perfectly and it doesn't go in, about a foot.  I also take into account which side I'm most likely to error on.  If it is uphill I know my tendency is to leave it short.  On those, I really focus on being a little more firm.  Then on downhillers, the opposite.  I know if I just hit it a little too hard, I'm going to have 5 feet past.  At times I'll leave it a inch or two short, but rarely three putt. 

 

post #22 of 39
Thread Starter 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leftygolfer View Post

Question:  Do you always try to roll the putt the same distance past? 

 

Yes.

 

I don't like the "don't give the hole away" thing. You're still reducing the effective hole size by hitting the ball firmly. I've played three foot putts two inches outside the edge of the hole because it's the right spot to make the putt. If I "didn't give the hole away" that cuts to the core of this issue: I'm making the hole smaller.

 

If I aim two inches outside the cup and the putt doesn't break four inches, but only breaks half as much, with good speed I'll still probably make it. Or if I push it or pull it up to about two inches, I'll still make it. That's not true of the "don't give the hole away" speed.

 

All "points" at which we aim are the same size. Effective capture speed simply makes the bucket larger.

post #23 of 39

Thanks for the reply Erik.  I think that is a better way to putt but I don't always read putts well and miss short ones on the high side.  That is a tendency I have when I'm not making the ones I really expect too.  Reading putts correctly is a huge part of the equation and at times I haven't done it as well as I liked. 

post #24 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post

I don't like the "don't give the hole away" thing. You're still reducing the effective hole size by hitting the ball firmly. I've played three foot putts two inches outside the edge of the hole because it's the right spot to make the putt. If I "didn't give the hole away" that cuts to the core of this issue: I'm making the hole smaller.


Thank you for this. I've been playing it as "don't give the hole away" even when my read told me I might have to, and I haven't had the courage to aim outside the hole. Sometimes I make it when I try to hit it firmly in, and sometimes I don't. Next time I'm on a practice green, I'm going to find a few 3-footers that require me to play outside the hole, and I'm going to make a few of them. Then I'll have the courage to do this on the course, and maybe not throw away that shot that I described a moment ago.
post #25 of 39

I knew this was how it worked but hadn't considered it lately. I've been getting addicted to how many putts I lip out when i'm hitting my putts fairly hard, and so i've continued to do it. Now i'm thinking that in reality i'm not necessarily coming all that close to making all of these.

 

I do think I still would prefer to hit my short less than 5 footers a little harder, depending on the severity of the break. I could be wrong of course, but I think that on some shorter putts, and possibly even some longer putts, could it be beneficial to hit it a little bit harder to take some of the break out even though you are shrinking the cup size. As you hit the ball harder there would be a relationship between speed and cup size, as well as speed and amount of break. The more break in the putt the harder it is going to be to read and as speed increases, break decreases, cup size decreases. Slower speed means more break and bigger cup, maybe there is a certain distance and/or amount of break that you gain more by taking out the break, and a certain distance where you gain more by increasing the cup size.


Edited by jshots - 7/24/11 at 2:43am
post #26 of 39
Thread Starter 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jshots View Post

I do think I still would prefer to hit my short less than 5 footers a little harder, depending on the severity of the break. I could be wrong of course, but I think that on some shorter putts, and possibly even some longer putts, could it be beneficial to hit it a little bit harder to take some of the break out even though you are shrinking the cup size. As you hit the ball harder there would be a relationship between speed and cup size, as well as speed and amount of break. The more break in the putt the harder it is going to be to read and as speed increases, break decreases, cup size decreases. Slower speed means more break and bigger cup, maybe there is a certain distance and/or amount of break that you gain more by taking out the break, and a certain distance where you gain more by increasing the cup size.


The thing is you still aim at a specific point. The hole is round - it's not like a ball breaking more has a smaller cup because it's curving more.

 

Case in point: a three-foot putt that is played at point A or point B.

 

The "jam it in" guy aims at point A, the edge of the cup, and it should break two inches into the middle of the cup.

The "coast it in" guy aims at point B, three inches outside the edge of the cup, but plays it to roll about six inches past the hole if he misses. He needs the putt to break five inches.

 

Both of these players are aiming at a precise point that's not any wider than the other player.

 

The thing is, player A is putting to a cup that's about 1.4 inches in size, while player B is putting to a cup 3.8 inches wide.

 

Player A can have some combination of misreading and mis-striking his putt +/- 0.7 inches. Player B can combine misreading or mis-striking his putt +/- 1.9 inches. That's nearly 3x as much room for error!

 

Do you know how many putts outside of two feet I've begun playing outside of the hole? Almost all of them! (Admittedly, I play greens that are 10 or 11.) And you know what? The hole begins to look huge when you just start seeing the ball diving in time and time and time again. With AimPoint I'm NOT going to misread the amount of break very much, so I have a good portion of the +/- 1.9 inches to miss my line and still make the putt.

 

When the ball starts lipping out the hole size gets smaller and smaller. When the ball keeps diving in even if you pull the ball almost two inches... it gets larger and larger.

 

Just sayin'. :-)

 

Update:

Short Putt.jpg

post #27 of 39

Yeah I see what you are saying, and maybe its just because I suck at reading greens, maybe it just increases my confidence, but I tend to make more of those just outside tap in range when i'm striking the ball more firmly. Its only been recently that I've begun doing this, and based on what you said it doesn't really make much sense but for some reason i'm making more short putts when I hit them harder. I think i'm probably more comfortable finding that precise spot when I take some of the break out, so maybe it is just a confidence issue. I don't use aimpoint, I can't afford to attend a clinic but maybe I should try to learn it on my own.

post #28 of 39
Thread Starter 

 

Note that this video gets the early parts right, but doesn't get the latter part very well.

 

Specifically:

  1. If you're putting STRAIGHT up or down the hill or VERY close to it (10° or so), then yes, what they say is true.
  2. If you're putting across the slope any appreciable amount, uphill putts not only break less but they're less speed sensitive AND are less likely to be thrown off-line by imperfections in the green (a downhill putt rolls slower and is more susceptible to imperfections in the green).
post #29 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
 

 

You might not find a bunch. AimPoint Certified instructors have paid a decent amount of money to get access to Mark and his knowledge. We try to respect his wishes too by not publishing his info unless we know we're allowed to.

 

 

Pelz's testing was done years ago on slower greens, yes, and it involved him rolling balls towards a hole using a rolling device. Anyway, that's more relevant in the other thread than this one.

 

Just curious, It seems like pro's use the firm method (or at least when I'm watching it on TV), is that just a function that they normally are better putters than us mere mortals and they play on better and faster greens.  It looks like so many times when they miss a putt they are putting 3-4 feet back?

post #30 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsgolfer View Post
 

 

Just curious, It seems like pro's use the firm method (or at least when I'm watching it on TV), is that just a function that they normally are better putters than us mere mortals and they play on better and faster greens.  It looks like so many times when they miss a putt they are putting 3-4 feet back?

 

Not really, think about it this way. 

 

From high handicap to pros is about 40 strokes. 

 

Of that of that 40 strokes only 6.5 is from putting. 

 

Outside of 20 feet pros are not that much different than amateurs. Were pro's make a living is inside of 20 feet, and the fact that they hit it closer to the pin than amateurs. Pro's take shots to get the ball close. So their GIR's will be lower because of this. If pro's shot for the middle of the green I think they would make a lot more GIR's, but they know that they need to be close to score. 

post #31 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsgolfer View Post
 

 

Just curious, It seems like pro's use the firm method (or at least when I'm watching it on TV), is that just a function that they normally are better putters than us mere mortals and they play on better and faster greens.  It looks like so many times when they miss a putt they are putting 3-4 feet back?


Yes, tour pros hit a higher percentage of putts past the hole than amateurs.  Yes, they are better putters so they have the confidence to make those 3-4 foot comebackers. Yes, they play on better and faster greens so they know if they hit their short putts on the right line at the right speed, chances are very good it will go in.

 

For them, leaving a makeable putt short is a very big error. They never have a chance to go in.

post #32 of 39
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsgolfer View Post
 

Just curious, It seems like pro's use the firm method (or at least when I'm watching it on TV), is that just a function that they normally are better putters than us mere mortals and they play on better and faster greens.  It looks like so many times when they miss a putt they are putting 3-4 feet back?

 

It seems like they do, yes. A few things factor in to this, too.

  1. Pros play faster greens, so even with the same capture speed, the ball will roll out farther.
  2. Rarely are pros putting from 3-4 feet after missing from 4-10 feet. You're relying on memory, while Broadie has stats (it's basically 1.2 to 2.2 feet on average, depending on whether it's uphill or downhill).
  3. Some pros don't understand the benefits of a slower capture speed. They ARE pretty good putters (though not nearly as good as people often think), so they can get away with smaller margins of error, but they also only make 96% of their three-footers. Phil Mickelson stands out as the good example here: he jams short putts quite often, and lips out quite frequently too.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harmonious View Post
 

Yes, tour pros hit a higher percentage of putts past the hole than amateurs. 

 

Not to debate the rest of what you said (because, except for the frequency of the time they hit it 3-4 feet past, which you only even lightly implied, it seemed fine), but this is true… but not by a lot. Something like 1% of five-footers on the PGA Tour are left short versus 3 or 4% for even lousy amateurs.

post #33 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post

 

Pelz's testing was done years ago on slower greens, yes, and it involved him rolling balls towards a hole using a rolling device. Anyway, that's more relevant in the other thread than this one.

I've read through Pelz' books. He wrote that he "tested for optimum speeds on different putts and different greens all around the country" through "years of experiments". I couldn't find where he identified the stimps for the greens he tested.

post #34 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post

 

Not to debate the rest of what you said (because, except for the frequency of the time they hit it 3-4 feet past, which you only even lightly implied, it seemed fine), but this is true… but not by a lot. Something like 1% of five-footers on the PGA Tour are left short versus 3 or 4% for even lousy amateurs.

I was thinking of anything inside of 20' as a "makeable" putt, a distance that a tour pro should feel like he can try to make instead of just lagging up to the hole.  In those situations, the tour pro will be much more likely to hit it past the hole than an amateur, for all the reasons listed.

post #35 of 39
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harmonious View Post
 

I was thinking of anything inside of 20' as a "makeable" putt, a distance that a tour pro should feel like he can try to make instead of just lagging up to the hole.  In those situations, the tour pro will be much more likely to hit it past the hole than an amateur, for all the reasons listed.

 

Except that they're not. PGA Tour pros don't leave putts short very often at all, but neither do amateurs. A little more often, but not "much more likely" as you write.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harmonious View Post
 

I've read through Pelz' books. He wrote that he "tested for optimum speeds on different putts and different greens all around the country" through "years of experiments". I couldn't find where he identified the stimps for the greens he tested.

 

Also note that 6-12" is at 8 stimp. Capture speed is literally the speed at which the ball arrives at the hole, so on a faster green (stimp 12), the ball will roll quite a bit farther than 6-12" (two feet or so), which puts Pelz's 17" likely well within the range.

 

Pelz also, IIRC, tested when metal spikes existed. PGA Tour players used to make 55% of their putts from a certain range in 1989, and today make 67%.

post #36 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by saevel25 View Post
 

 

Not really, think about it this way. 

 

From high handicap to pros is about 40 strokes. 

 

Of that of that 40 strokes only 6.5 is from putting. 

 

Outside of 20 feet pros are not that much different than amateurs. Were pro's make a living is inside of 20 feet, and the fact that they hit it closer to the pin than amateurs. Pro's take shots to get the ball close. So their GIR's will be lower because of this. If pro's shot for the middle of the green I think they would make a lot more GIR's, but they know that they need to be close to score. 

That wasn't my question, I should have said on short putts (2-3 feet) not long putts.  And if I'm understanding of what Iacas said, it seems like playing more break at a slower speed makes the hole actually larger and better chance of making a putt and therefore Mr. Broadie's idea of hitting the putts firm is not as accurate.  As Iacas pointed out it makes the hole smaller.  This actually makes sense to me, but when watching the PGA Tour, it seems like a lot of pros take the hammer it into the hole approach (from 2-3 feet), especially Tiger, when making short putts and therefore their misses seem to be much further away.  So I'm guessing that to them, as they are better putters, they try and take out the break on short fast putts and will live with a 3-4 foot comeback if they miss, because they make these more often than us mere mortals.  

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