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Putting Capture Speed - Page 3

post #37 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
 

 

It seems like they do, yes. A few things factor in to this, too.

  1. Pros play faster greens, so even with the same capture speed, the ball will roll out farther.
  2. Rarely are pros putting from 3-4 feet after missing from 4-10 feet. You're relying on memory, while Broadie has stats (it's basically 1.2 to 2.2 feet on average, depending on whether it's uphill or downhill).
  3. Some pros don't understand the benefits of a slower capture speed. They ARE pretty good putters (though not nearly as good as people often think), so they can get away with smaller margins of error, but they also only make 96% of their three-footers. Phil Mickelson stands out as the good example here: he jams short putts quite often, and lips out quite frequently too.

 

 

Not to debate the rest of what you said (because, except for the frequency of the time they hit it 3-4 feet past, which you only even lightly implied, it seemed fine), but this is true… but not by a lot. Something like 1% of five-footers on the PGA Tour are left short versus 3 or 4% for even lousy amateurs.

 

 

I wasn't really talking about them missing a putt by 2-3 feet, could be anytime that they have 2-3 foot putt, sand shot, missed putt, chip, stiffed wedge, whatever.  

 

I think most of the time, we only see the guys making everything on tour or when the leaders or stars miss and we don't see the 30 other putts that they took, so you go by what you last saw and sometimes we forget everything else.

post #38 of 43
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsgolfer View Post
 

That wasn't my question, I should have said on short putts (2-3 feet) not long putts.  And if I'm understanding of what Iacas said, it seems like playing more break at a slower speed makes the hole actually larger and better chance of making a putt and therefore Mr. Broadie's idea of hitting the putts firm is not as accurate.

 

Let me be clear about one thing, quickly, because this is getting away from the topic of discussing the book, too.

 

It was one line in the book, and he used the word "potentially." Let's not make more of it than he wrote. The line, given what I know about putting, struck me as odd. That's all. He never really talks about it more.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsgolfer View Post
 

This actually makes sense to me, but when watching the PGA Tour, it seems like a lot of pros take the hammer it into the hole approach (from 2-3 feet), especially Tiger, when making short putts and therefore their misses seem to be much further away.

 

The statistics don't bear out your recollection.

post #39 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
 

 

Let me be clear about one thing, quickly, because this is getting away from the topic of discussing the book, too.

 

It was one line in the book, and he used the word "potentially." Let's not make more of it than he wrote. The line, given what I know about putting, struck me as odd. That's all. He never really talks about it more.

 

 

The statistics don't bear out your recollection.

Agreed.

post #40 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post

Kinda shoots the argument in the foot when you realize the designer designed those holes to play as par 4s and par 5s, doesn't it? Mike Davis wasn't the only one to say it.

I think he agreed, on Sunday, that for players at THIS level, playing 18 as a par four made less sense, so I give him credit for that. He'd touted that as a unique thing all year, and tried it only once.


Others addressed this, but it was a GOOD thing for Day to do that, not the opposite.


12 played as a par 3.5 and 16 did the last two days also. Do you have a problem with that?


Maybe he knows something you don't? Check this thread out:

Putting Capture Speed
started on 05/10/11 last post 06/23/15 at 2:20pm 42 replies 5524 views


Also note that on uphill/downhill putts, the ball can be rolling the same speed but roll out significantly different distances. His second putt might have been traveling almost the same speed at the hole as the eagle putt just before it.

Now, most PGA Tour pros, I agree, will tend to firm the ball in the back of the hole. But DJ had just hit a fast putt down the hill, and at the end of the day, the slower a ball is moving when it reaches the hole the bigger the hole behaves.

iacas, Wow! Great thread on putting. Thanks!

I'll read more when I have time. There were a few posts saying the calculations missed a few things and that Pelz 17 inches may be correct. In my personal experience the hole does get bigger if the ball is trickling in, but it also effected the most by the break and any lumpy donut or bumpy green issues.

It seems to me the vast majority of break happens at the end of a putt when it's going the slowest.

If the putt has some break and it's match play or a skins game to maximize my chances of taking the break out, I hit putts firmer. Four inches just brings in too much break for me and he did slide by on the amateur side. He may have read the break and just tightened up and didn't hit it as hard as he planned.

Heart breaking for DJ no matter what the reason. Hope he bounces right back.
post #41 of 43
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack B View Post

I'll read more when I have time. There were a few posts saying the calculations missed a few things and that Pelz 17 inches may be correct. In my personal experience the hole does get bigger if the ball is trickling in, but it also effected the most by the break and any lumpy donut or bumpy green issues.

 

The math isn't wrong or right - it's accurate, correct math. It's also calculated on an 8 stimp green, too (or an uphill putt on a faster green where it would roll eight feet of a stimpmeter), so the same capture "widths" are accurate despite the ball rolling out farther past the hole on faster greens.

 

Pelz's 17" is long in the tooth. Greens are no longer as slow as back when he calculated that number. The ball only really experiences "wobble" (i.e. easily deflected by the surface irregularities in virtually any green) in the last six inches or so of the putt, at almost any green speed (and particularly so on faster Tour-level greens). That range grows, as does the "distance past the hole" range for acceptable capture speed, on downhill putts because, at the end of the day, we're talking about ball speed but using the distance it rolls past the hole as a sort of stand-in for that speed.

 

17" is a bit too far - we typically recommend 12" or so beyond the hole, but if in trying to get 12" you often leave putts inside of 12 feet short, you should probably consider something more like 17" because putts left short rarely* go in. :)

 

* sarcasm

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack B View Post

It seems to me the vast majority of break happens at the end of a putt when it's going the slowest.

 

Yes and no. Putts break more when they're going slowly, but here are two numbers for you: a 5-foot putt and a 25-foot putt across the same 3% slope on stimp 12 greens:

 

The 5' putt breaks: 10 inches.

The 20' putt breaks: 51 inches.

 

So, you tell me… where's most of the break occurring?

 

How much can a three-foot putt break? In this case, it breaks 6 inches.

 

Our eyes often see the putt as breaking the most at the end of the putt, but it's a bit of a lie because the ball is not traveling straight away from us, it's more across our field of vision, and we equate that with seeing "break." If we got to a point on the last 3 inches the putt broke, it would be obvious it didn't move much at the end.

 

Here's that same putt shown breaking:

 

 

This image illustrates the aim points of the 20 foot putt as well as where you'd aim the 5 foot putt and the 3 foot putt.

 

People often are fooled by how and when a putt is breaking because:

  • They won't look up to see the initial part of the putt.
  • The initial part of the putt occurs quickly, so it gets to the "x" in let's say two seconds but then takes five seconds to roll the rest of the way, the last 8 feet or whatever that is.
  • People are bad at seeing small breaks when the putt is moving away from you, and good at seeing "break" when the ball is moving closer to a 90° angle to your field of vision.
  • People often start to see break from the apex (the "x" roughly).

 

But, you can clearly see how the putt has already broken quite a bit. The apex occurs in this putt at about 7.5' out from the hole, and the putt has already "broken" about 30 inches (at 12' into the putt, the ball would also be have a heading at 16" outside the edge of the cup).

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack B View Post

If the putt has some break and it's match play or a skins game to maximize my chances of taking the break out, I hit putts firmer. Four inches just brings in too much break for me and he did slide by on the amateur side. He may have read the break and just tightened up and didn't hit it as hard as he planned.

 

Very simply let me put it this way to you.

 

At the end of the day, you're aiming at a spot that's infinitely small. It's basically the spot where, when your ball takes off, the ball is going. Mentally, remove the hole from the equation. It's a spot somewhere in space, and you intend to start your ball there.

 

The difference between someone who "tries to take the break out of it" versus someone who dies it into the hole with "better" capture speed? The "buffer" for an "acceptable" (i.e. holed) putt on either side of that spot, or that initial starting direction.

 

There's a speed at which you can hit putts where you have literally zero degrees left or right to miss the starting line and still make the putt, and there's a speed at which you have just over two inches left or right to miss that spot (the length of the putt determines how many degrees that is) to still make that putt.

 

I don't know about you… but I'd rather be doing using the widest reasonable (to avoid the "wobble zone") buffer possible.

post #42 of 43
Interesting discussion. It certainly seems there are a number of variables that determine the proper speed for each individual putt.

If I knew the exact break and exact speed needed then would the speed (ie distance past the hole) be different than the same putt if I had little confidence in my read? Example would be a 3 footer with a 2 foot break on a green I was unfamiliar with...

Lagging to a few inches to make the hole bigger would seem to decrease my chances of a lip out and an easier 2nd putt, but if length of my 2nd putt didn't matter and I was really unsure of my read would taking more break out with more speed sink a higher percentage?

I'd like to experiment and hit 100 putts on the practice green using each method, but once I putt the first I'll know the break, so it messes up the experiment a bit.
post #43 of 43

Interesting discussion.  I honestly have never put a huge amount of thought into it.  Experience has just showed me that I prefer to hit puts at speed to be 6"-12" past the hole.  Just makes sense to me that it gives the ball the best chance of catching part of the hole and falling in.  I will put a wedge on the ground about a foot past the hole on practice green and practice getting the ball to stop between the hole and the wedge shaft.

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