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Bought a persimmon driver ... what to expect ? - Page 2

post #19 of 32

 I remember the sound of persimmon drivers as the most beautiful sound I have ever heard of a club hitting a ball. Metal drivers will never produce that sound.

 

Similar to wood baseball bats vs aluminum softball bats. The sound wood makes when hitting a ball is totally different.

post #20 of 32
I like to take my old laminated and persimmon woods to the range, get a hitting station next to a guy with the latest shiny new driver, and then whack balls that go about as far and straight as his.

Also interesting to note that modern "hybrids" are basically the same setup as old persimmon or maple fairway woods. Very similar club length and head size.
post #21 of 32

I took a Lynx Persimmon driver to the range today. I had a big head LX driver and Palmer PHD and the Persimmon. I hit both the oversized drivers ok but with a fade, which I have learned to live with, I hit a few balls with the persimmon. They went straighter, a little higher and seemed to land a few yards past the other ones, it wasn't until I got home that I realized I took the Persimmon 3 wood to the range instead of the driver.

post #22 of 32

Well this all may be true but the greats from the past, the 50's, 60's and 70's all used persimmon or laminate drivers/woods and they averaged 270 ish.

Sure this is less than many of the golfers today but the ball it's self would make up a lot of the distance by it's self.

Courses were not as long, they were 'tough'. Golf was not a long hitter wins and it's still not and never will be.

Brandt Snedeker (spelling) played a round with old school clubs like these for a test. He shot in the 80's and said he would never do it again. He could not understand how the pros of the past ever scored in the 60's with them as often as they did. And remember today's pros averages are just about what the old pros averages were 40-50 and 60 years ago.

You still gotta have a swing to play this game.

Bubba Watson said several weeks/months past when asked about which clubs/types were the best. He said it made little difference which head was at the end of your shaft. The only important thing was the shaft was correct for your swing and the grip on the shaft was correct for your hand size/strength/etc. Nothing else mattered because all of today's like club heads are within immeasurable tolerances. The only thing that sells today, is hype. No new technological break through are coming down the road of golf. They have all been discovered, implemented, tweaked, and hyped out the wazoo. It's going to come down to the same old thing. You gotta have a swing. It's like when I tell my son about the longest drive in PGA history being 515 yards with a persimmon wood by a 65 year old guy named Austin. He doesn't believe it.

I think the guy that posted above thinking a once a year old school equipment tournament would be great. I'd watch it in a heartbeat.

post #23 of 32

If you can hit the sweetspot it will go straighter, but not as far is what they say. I can still hit a persimmon driver about 240, which everyone my age learned to play with. I can hit an oversized metal driver about the same distance with more of a tendancy to slice unless I use a stiff shaft. I can hit my Ti driver about 260, with less ability to work the ball. I also seem to hit my persommon 3 wood as far as my persimmon driver off the tee, so I use it more often than the driver.

post #24 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocParty View Post
 

Brandt Snedeker (spelling) played a round with old school clubs like these for a test. He shot in the 80's and said he would never do it again. He could not understand how the pros of the past ever scored in the 60's with them as often as they did. And remember today's pros averages are just about what the old pros averages were 40-50 and 60 years ago.

I think such assessments more reflect what today's players are accustomed to. They have grown up with composite shafts and oversized heads. Yes, there are physical distinctions between clubs of yesteryear and today, but if you were to do this experiment in reverse, take a good player accustomed to playing persimmon and stick a modern driver in his or her hands, not only wouldn't they have some immediate improvement, but they likely would drive the ball worse given their unfamiliarity with the new clubs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dennbb View Post
 

If you can hit the sweetspot it will go straighter, but not as far is what they say.

Perhaps this is a typo (or I am misreading) but the "sweetspot," aka center of percussion, is by definition the point where there is maximum transfer of energy from club to the ball (anything else off center results in energy being wasted in twisting and turning). The farthest shot will always be on the sweetspot. If you meant a persimmon on the sweetspot vs a new driver on the sweetspot, all things being equal, the smaller clubhead (i.e. the persimmon) typically delivers a more efficient (and longer hit). However, the key is "all things being equal." The real advantage in modern clubheads is the ability to make them larger and lighter. This allows for overall club length to be longer, increasing the opportunity for swing speed. The larger heads, reduce the impact of off-center hits. You sacrifice a tiny bit on the energy transfer for an absolutely perfectly hit shot but you gain on average for all those near perfect hits. You also shift the center of gravity which helps with launch angle (see next comment).

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dennbb View Post
 

I also seem to hit my persommon 3 wood as far as my persimmon driver off the tee, so I use it more often than the driver.

This happens more than you might think. While the ball has an impact on this, typically the optimum launch angle (distance wise) is somewhere between 15 and 20 degrees (the ball's spin rate and dimple design will impact its lift and thus its carry). Lots of folks step onto the tee with a low lofted driver (say 8 degrees) and a shaft that is too stiff (very little forward flex at impact) and then play the ball too far back in their stance. They never get that optimum launch angle. However, step in there with a three-wood, which starts out with a loft close to their optimum launch angle, and the ball goes farther than their driver. All this factors into the oversize heads - the shifted center of gravity (back in the club) tends to have the ball come off the clubface higher. The consequence is a large 8 degree driver vs a smaller 12 degree driver might result in same launch angle but the 8 degree has less spin, which results in more run, more distance. Again, I think the issue is that the new materials allow for clubhead shapes and sizes that weren't possible with solid wood. The consequence is modern woods, especially drivers, perform quite differently from those of yesteryear. I find trying to explain why I play persimmon is often like trying to explain manual shift to some kid who has driven an automatic all his life. Like a manual, persimmon requires more work, more thinking, and that's not a bad thing.

post #25 of 32

There's not such thing as an absolutely perfect shot.

post #26 of 32

Don't forget, with persimmon you have it inspected and treated for termites every year.

post #27 of 32
Quote
"If you meant a persimmon on the sweetspot vs a new driver on the sweetspot, all things being equal, the smaller clubhead (i.e. the persimmon) typically delivers a more efficient (and longer hit). "

The claim the manufacturers make is that the sweet spot on newer drivers delivers more distance because it's hollow and creates a spring effect. But I somehow doubt they're any more honest than car manufacturers or anyone else. I do know I can hit a TItanium driver further than a persimmon and I rarely miss hit anything. I think Golf should have kept the old equipment. Like Pro baseball sticks to wooden bats. I fell for the hype for a long time before I realized that every new driver I bought that was supposed to add 20 yards to my drives should add up to me hitting 700 yard drives. In a nutshell Goilfers might be the most gullible people on the planet. Like Sam Snead said "if you have a swing you can hit it with a stick
post #28 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by dennbb View Post

Quote
"If you meant a persimmon on the sweetspot vs a new driver on the sweetspot, all things being equal, the smaller clubhead (i.e. the persimmon) typically delivers a more efficient (and longer hit). "

The claim the manufacturers make is that the sweet spot on newer drivers delivers more distance because it's hollow and creates a spring effect. But I somehow doubt they're any more honest than car manufacturers or anyone else.

If you were to test the Coefficient of Restitution for both a persimmon and modern driver, you would find the modern driver to outperform the persimmon driver by quite a bit. To give an example of how much the equipment has changed, Rickie Fowler was able to hit his current ball and 3-iron further than he hit the old ball and persimmon driver on Wednesday at Cherry Hills.

 

Basically, the Coefficient of Restitution is how "springy" the clubface is. A higher CoR will directly translate into a longer drive when hit under the same conditions as a driver with a lower CoR. There's a reason the USGA limits the CoR between a ball and the club.

post #29 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pretzel View Post

If you were to test the Coefficient of Restitution for both a persimmon and modern driver, you would find the modern driver to outperform the persimmon driver by quite a bit. To give an example of how much the equipment has changed, Rickie Fowler was able to hit his current ball and 3-iron further than he hit the old ball and persimmon driver on Wednesday at Cherry Hills.

 

Basically, the Coefficient of Restitution is how "springy" the clubface is. A higher CoR will directly translate into a longer drive when hit under the same conditions as a driver with a lower CoR. There's a reason the USGA limits the CoR between a ball and the club.

 




You misquoted me ""If you meant a persimmon on the sweetspot vs a new driver on the sweetspot, all things being equal, the smaller clubhead (i.e. the persimmon) typically delivers a more efficient (and longer hit). "" wasn't me that said it. And , why was Fowler using an old ball and persimmon wood? And Cherry hills is a mile above sea level. Thinner air. Less wind resistance=longer ball. I believe there may be some advantages to newer equipment, but it's mostly hype to sell the stuff.
post #30 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by dennbb View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pretzel View Post
 

If you were to test the Coefficient of Restitution for both a persimmon and modern driver, you would find the modern driver to outperform the persimmon driver by quite a bit. To give an example of how much the equipment has changed, Rickie Fowler was able to hit his current ball and 3-iron further than he hit the old ball and persimmon driver on Wednesday at Cherry Hills.

 

Basically, the Coefficient of Restitution is how "springy" the clubface is. A higher CoR will directly translate into a longer drive when hit under the same conditions as a driver with a lower CoR. There's a reason the USGA limits the CoR between a ball and the club.

 




You misquoted me ""If you meant a persimmon on the sweetspot vs a new driver on the sweetspot, all things being equal, the smaller clubhead (i.e. the persimmon) typically delivers a more efficient (and longer hit). "" wasn't me that said it. And , why was Fowler using an old ball and persimmon wood? And Cherry hills is a mile above sea level. Thinner air. Less wind resistance=longer ball. I believe there may be some advantages to newer equipment, but it's mostly hype to sell the stuff.

He hit both of them at Cherry Hills, so the altitude didn't matter when comparing the two. The pros tried to replicated Arnold Palmer's shot on the first hole on Wednesday using the same equipment.

 

Also, I didn't misquote the part where you said that manufacturers claim the faces are springier. I was merely pointing out that the faces are, indeed, quite a bit springier than they used to be.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dennbb View Post
The claim the manufacturers make is that the sweet spot on newer drivers delivers more distance because it's hollow and creates a spring effect. But I somehow doubt they're any more honest than car manufacturers or anyone else.

While there are the usual "gimmicks" that companies guarantee will add yards to your drives, the springier faces are not one of them. The manufacturers are being completely honest when they say the faces have more of a trampoline effect than they used to.

post #31 of 32
I do believe that because like I sad Earlier I have a Titanium driver that goes 20 yards longer than My Persimmon. I have an old Yonex ADX2 that I can hit 30 yards longer on dry fairways in the summer because of the low trajectory. My problem with modern equipment is I am 65 and have been playing for almost 50 years I have grooved a swing I don't feel like changing and I have spent thousands on new clubs of which I found the irons to be great but I have yet to find a new driver where I don't have to manipulate the club with my hands to keep my fade from turning into a slice. I finally settled on a Ti driver with a smaller head. That great big head on some of the clubs I've tried just does something to my head .
post #32 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pretzel View Post
 

If you were to test the Coefficient of Restitution for both a persimmon and modern driver, you would find the modern driver to outperform the persimmon driver by quite a bit. To give an example of how much the equipment has changed, Rickie Fowler was able to hit his current ball and 3-iron further than he hit the old ball and persimmon driver on Wednesday at Cherry Hills.

Yes, there can be measured physical aspects - like coefficient of restitution - however, I would maintain much greater factors to length off the tee are club length and loft. Bear in mind, that a persimmon clubhead does not result in the meeting of ball and solid wood - the persimmon has inserts of any number of materials - including titanium. Now, yes, club manufacturers enhanced these properties in modern clubfaces by making them so thin that there can be a "trampoline effect." But before looking at the minor things, look at the more obvious characteristics - longer clubs, less loft, but higher launch angle. When comparing old and new, it is almost impossible to get apples to apples. If you had two clubheads - persimmon and titanium -  identical weight, loft, and put on a shaft of the same material and length - you would still have very different launch angles, spin rates, carry and roll due to the design differences. It is almost impossible to compare one to the other. That doesn't even touch on the single largest factor in distance increases over the past several decades - the ball. Hence, the Fowler story: Today's 3 iron, in shaft length and loft, is probably not too far from yesteryear's driver. Add in  the modern vs. old ball, and the results are not surprising. More than anything, however, you are dealing with much different clubs. Sticking an old persimmon in the hands of someone unaccustomed to it - or vice verse - is a self fulfilling prophecy more than a true comparison.

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