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post #91 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by swingn View Post
 

If Gigagolf made a deal with every tour player around the world to pay more than their existing contracts by 10% and plastered the golf channel and espn with high dollar commercials then all of a sudden they'd be a great club to all those ragging on them now.

 

Here's why you're wrong:

 

Gigagolf, though probably very good clubs, mirror their own "designs" after the designs of successful clubs. They have no R&D. They use slightly lesser quality materials. And they copy - right up to the edge of legality IIRC - the designs and concepts from TaylorMade, Callaway, PING, Cobra, etc.

 

So no.

 

Now again, for many, a set of Gigagolf clubs is great and will perform well. But you're being quite hyperbolic in your praise, and it's undeserved and unfounded.

post #92 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by swingn View Post

 
If Gigagolf made a deal with every tour player around the world to pay more than their existing contracts by 10% and plastered the golf channel and espn with high dollar commercials then all of a sudden they'd be a great club to all those ragging on them now.

Here's why you're wrong:

Gigagolf, though probably very good clubs, mirror their own "designs" after the designs of successful clubs. They have no R&D. They use slightly lesser quality materials. And they copy - right up to the edge of legality IIRC - the designs and concepts from TaylorMade, Callaway, PING, Cobra, etc.

So no.

Now again, for many, a set of Gigagolf clubs is great and will perform well. But you're being quite hyperbolic in your praise, and it's undeserved and unfounded.

I do feel like the praising is probably out of control.. However, your point raises a question for me when I think of from a cost benefit perspective? Mainly, at what playing level do you think a player would benefit from buying the original product vs. the generic in this case from gigagolf? I know equipment plays a role in scoring, but other than just saying I have a brand name what is the difference in strokes between two people of the same playing level with these two sets of clubs?
post #93 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abu3baid View Post

I do feel like the praising is probably out of control.. However, your point raises a question for me when I think of from a cost benefit perspective? Mainly, at what playing level do you think a player would benefit from buying the original product vs. the generic in this case from gigagolf? I know equipment plays a role in scoring, but other than just saying I have a brand name what is the difference in strokes between two people of the same playing level with these two sets of clubs?

 

TBH, I don't know (or care) because I tend to not want to support knock-offs that skirt the legalities. It's intellectually dishonest to just copy someone else's design. Golf clubs last awhile if you take care of them.

post #94 of 121

I really don't know if I should post this or not...what the heck!!!  I have had  Titelist, Cleveland, Taylormade, Cobra, and Maltby drivers.  I paid to be fitted for the Cleveland, Titelist, and Taylormade. I hit all of these drivers very well in the cage with the monitor and the equipment they used to fit me.  Go out to play for real and can't hit them worth a crap.  Personal opinion is that these cage sessions make you feel that you hit the club better than you really do.   Bought the Cobra on sale and had the Maltby put together for me.   Still like the Maltby  Out of all of them, I would say that I hit the Maltby the best, but not really that good.  

 

On a whim, I decided to look at the Gigagolf drivers after reading this thread.  According to their e-fit, or whatever it is called, all of the drivers I have had were to long, and wrong loft.  I am 65, do not hit real long any more, usually a good drive is about 260 with a nice roll out,  but generally in the 240-250 range, but very inconsistent.  The ball I have been playing with is the Callaway Extra Soft...

 

Ordered a driver form Gigagolf, used their efit deal.  Ended up with a standard length driver, stiff flex, and 10.5* loft driver. standard grip.  Got the club on a Monday, went to the range on Tuesday and Wednesday.  Followed my normal range routine, getting loose with my 9i, hitting the 7i, then hit the driver.  First few balls with the driver were a bit right and not long.  Next 5 or so balls were longer and a nice gentle fade.  Hit a few more irons, then 3W, a few more with the driver.  Was pretty satisfied.  Of course you are using range balls and are not gonna get the distance you might get with a fresh ball....Played a round with my two brothers on that Friday.  I am an 18 hdcp, so I do not expect to hit all fairways or greens in regulation.  I hit 7 greens off the tee with the driver and none way right and out of play.  Overall I will have to say that I am probably more satisfied with the Gigagolf TRX Titanium Driver.

 

Price was about $250 less than the drivers I got fitted for and I hit this driver better, overall and with better results than any of the above mentioned drivers. I think that if I has a little shorter shaft in the Maltby that I would hit it and the Gigagolf driver about equal.  

 

I am not an egoist, so it does not bother me to not have a "name brand" in my bag.  The driver from Gigagolf looks good, feels good, and has a nice sound to it.  It is not "tinny" sounding and does not sound like you are hitting a baseball with and aluminum bat.  It felt pretty solid and looked good at address.  

 

Now, I cannot tell you that it added 20+ yards to my drive, but I did not lose any yardage.  May be a few yards longer because I am not in the trees, out of the fairway trying to just advance the ball into the fairway on my second shot.  It was nice to be able to hit towards the green--still can't hit very many greens in regulation, but  I had opportunity that I did not execute...

 

Buying and using equipment other than the top names is not for everyone.  Who knows, I may use this driver for a while and give it to my brother and go back to hitting my 3W off the tee.  

 

I am not employed or related to anyone at Gigagolf.  I don't know enough about all this to write a really in depth review.  Would I recommend this driver?  Yes, but I am fully aware that the majority of my issues on the golf course are created by the Indian (can I say that) and not the arrow....

post #95 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abu3baid View Post

I do feel like the praising is probably out of control.. However, your point raises a question for me when I think of from a cost benefit perspective? Mainly, at what playing level do you think a player would benefit from buying the original product vs. the generic in this case from gigagolf? I know equipment plays a role in scoring, but other than just saying I have a brand name what is the difference in strokes between two people of the same playing level with these two sets of clubs?

TBH, I don't know (or care) because I tend to not want to support knock-offs that skirt the legalities. It's intellectually dishonest to just copy someone else's design. Golf clubs last awhile if you take care of them.

Fair enough Erik.. I think from your stand point as someone who is in the business this is understandable.

However, I think it would be very interesting for the rest of us consumers who only really care about value for money to know what it is we are paying for.. Only way to do that is to get a professionals opinion and maybe track man numbers over a period of time..

In terms of intellectual property I think as consumers we can only really rely on the courts to sort that stuff out.. I'm sure the big manufacturers have all of their big lawyers working on it, but until then as long as they are within the boundaries of the law it is hard to persuade people to go other places without hard proof that the product doesn't deliver..

I will try to look up if there are any current activities in regard to closing this operation legally.
post #96 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abu3baid View Post

I will try to look up if there are any current activities in regard to closing this operation legally.

 

I doubt there are, and as I've said it's legal so far as I know.

 

But that doesn't mean it's the kind of behavior I wish to reward with my cash. There are lots of things that are legal but not exactly things I wish to support.

post #97 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
 

 

I doubt there are, and as I've said it's legal so far as I know.

 

But that doesn't mean it's the kind of behavior I wish to reward with my cash. There are lots of things that are legal but not exactly things I wish to support.

I chimed in earlier that, having tried one of the gigagolf clubs that belonged to my brother, I don't particularly find their quality to be high, but that's a sample size of one. But what really does bother me is just looking at their driver page. Anyone who's followed major club releases over the past year or two can name exactly which major model driver the gigagolf models are knocking off. Their SLDR one is especially brazen; they even have them in black and white like the Taylormade. I really hate the free rider nature of any company that lets others put in the money and legwork into creating innovation and marketing, and then undercutting that original company's price while ripping off all of that work. In the long term, it's bad for everyone except the free riding business, and I'd hate to encourage that with my business.

post #98 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by dkolo View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post

 

I doubt there are, and as I've said it's legal so far as I know.

But that doesn't mean it's the kind of behavior I wish to reward with my cash. There are lots of things that are legal but not exactly things I wish to support.
I chimed in earlier that, having tried one of the gigagolf clubs that belonged to my brother, I don't particularly find their quality to be high, but that's a sample size of one. But what really does bother me is just looking at their driver page. Anyone who's followed major club releases over the past year or two can name exactly which major model driver the gigagolf models are knocking off. Their SLDR one is especially brazen; they even have them in black and white like the Taylormade. I really hate the free rider nature of any company that lets others put in the money and legwork into creating innovation and marketing, and then undercutting that original company's price while ripping off all of that work. In the long term, it's bad for everyone except the free riding business, and I'd hate to encourage that with my business.

In terms of them being a knock off you will not get an argument from me.. There are knock offs across the board with most of the products I can think of.. That is why everything invented will usually have a patent to protect its rights. What I find strange is that there is no action being taken against these guys by the ones being hurt the most..

Look at it from a beginners point of view.. Do I pay 900 for a set, when I can pay 300 for the same set with a negligent difference? The otherr option is buying used for like 600 or a Wilson set for 150.. No brainier for a beginner, but everyone is always free to spend where they see fit of course!

I'm still not decided what to buy when I come back to Boston, but I'm going to think long and hard and will have to justify to my self paying an extra 600..

To be honest I didn't know anything about gigagolf until I read this thread.. But now that I do it is hard to ignore!
post #99 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abu3baid View Post


In terms of them being a knock off you will not get an argument from me.. There are knock offs across the board with most of the products I can think of.. That is why everything invented will usually have a patent to protect its rights. What I find strange is that there is no action being taken against these guys by the ones being hurt the most..

Look at it from a beginners point of view.. Do I pay 900 for a set, when I can pay 300 for the same set with a negligent difference? The otherr option is buying used for like 600 or a Wilson set for 150.. No brainier for a beginner, but everyone is always free to spend where they see fit of course!

I'm still not decided what to buy when I come back to Boston, but I'm going to think long and hard and will have to justify to my self paying an extra 600..

To be honest I didn't know anything about gigagolf until I read this thread.. But now that I do it is hard to ignore!

It's a moral hazard to be sure. No one individual buyer has any economic incentive to buy the genuine article as opposed to the knockoffs with this big of a price disparity, if all else is equal (though I'm not convinced they are on par quality-wise, but let's say they are), but if enough consumers moved to the knockoffs / clones, then the big manufacturers wouldn't have the profit incentive to innovate, and you'd have consumers be hurt that way by virtue of inferior products. I don't think this stuff is much different than arguments over buying fair-trade items or humanely raised food products. Either an individual is moved by the broader ramifications or behaves purely economically rationally. I can't aspersions on either one, but I personally would rather support the Taylormades and Callaways of the world who give us lots of interesting innovations that make the game better. Personally, both brands have treated me well. All the clubs I own are Callaway, and I had wonderful experiences with the customer support of their Preowned division. Taylormade, for its part, has sent me a bunch of free stuff, including giving me a free Speedblade 6-iron and a bunch of their golf balls, not to mention let me hit golf balls in the middle of Times Square when they rented out the area for a promotional event. I'm happy to buy their stuff. Does that mean I'm rushing out to pay full price every week when they release a new version of a product? No way, I'll still eagerly seek out a deal or buy late models or even used, but I'd rather put money into that economy than to support the knockoffs that don't operate in what I would consider to be a respectable business model. 

post #100 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by dkolo View Post
 

I chimed in earlier that, having tried one of the gigagolf clubs that belonged to my brother, I don't particularly find their quality to be high, but that's a sample size of one. But what really does bother me is just looking at their driver page. Anyone who's followed major club releases over the past year or two can name exactly which major model driver the gigagolf models are knocking off. Their SLDR one is especially brazen; they even have them in black and white like the Taylormade. I really hate the free rider nature of any company that lets others put in the money and legwork into creating innovation and marketing, and then undercutting that original company's price while ripping off all of that work. In the long term, it's bad for everyone except the free riding business, and I'd hate to encourage that with my business.

 

I agree with this 100%. Their gimmicky drivers, fairway woods, and hybrids are clearly free-riding off the R&D put into designing these clubs by major manufacturers. I'll never buy one of these again. But the iron set I have just looks like a good, standard set of muscle back irons that cost me $300 vs. $1000 for a comparable Titleist or Mizuno set. I simply can't afford that. My wife would whack me over the head with my 6-iron and I want to be alive to play with the clubs. I have a hard time finding a used set of Mizunos released 8 years ago for $300 on E-Bay in very good condition. Excellent condition? That's usually $500 minimum.

 

If you want to save money on clubs, though, I think drivers and fairway woods can be gotten cheaply at Golfsmith or a place like that, allowing you to not need a Gigagolf or Pine Meadow. I got a Ping G15 that is superior to my old Gigagolf driver for $85 at Golfsmith - plays wonderfully. I got a RBz Stage 2 3W in excellent condition from GlobalGolf for about $100. An R11 rescue at GlobalGolf for $50.

 

As to Erik's point above about not supporting them with my cash to steal other's ideas, I agree to a point. Like I said, unless someone can show me how they directly ripped off an exact iron model from Titleist, Nike, etc. to produce the one I use from them, I don't see what they're doing with irons as wrong. Even wedges (though I find their lines inferior to name-brand wedges). They just seem like good irons that are cheaper. I don't buy the idea of boycotting entire companies if only a part of what they do is amoral. I still buy Nike sneakers even though there have been several lawsuits against them for atrocious labor practices overseas. I'd visit Dubai even though the laborers who built the gorgeous towers there were basically packed into work camps like roaches and treated awfully for penny wages. Am I going to buy a "Gigagolf Slider" driver that looks like someone painted a TaylorMade? No. But I won't never buy from them. If I boycotted every company that had some lousy business practice in place I'd need to grow my own food and build my own appliances. That's assuming I'm not a numbskull sometimes. too ;-)

post #101 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by dkolo View Post
 

It's a moral hazard to be sure. No one individual buyer has any economic incentive to buy the genuine article as opposed to the knockoffs with this big of a price disparity, if all else is equal (though I'm not convinced they are on par quality-wise, but let's say they are), but if enough consumers moved to the knockoffs / clones, then the big manufacturers wouldn't have the profit incentive to innovate, and you'd have consumers be hurt that way by virtue of inferior products. I don't think this stuff is much different than arguments over buying fair-trade items or humanely raised food products. Either an individual is moved by the broader ramifications or behaves purely economically rationally. I can't aspersions on either one, but I personally would rather support the Taylormades and Callaways of the world who give us lots of interesting innovations that make the game better. Personally, both brands have treated me well. All the clubs I own are Callaway, and I had wonderful experiences with the customer support of their Preowned division. Taylormade, for its part, has sent me a bunch of free stuff, including giving me a free Speedblade 6-iron and a bunch of their golf balls, not to mention let me hit golf balls in the middle of Times Square when they rented out the area for a promotional event. I'm happy to buy their stuff. Does that mean I'm rushing out to pay full price every week when they release a new version of a product? No way, I'll still eagerly seek out a deal or buy late models or even used, but I'd rather put money into that economy than to support the knockoffs that don't operate in what I would consider to be a respectable business model.

I think this is a very excellent statement, but I don't think it's an either/or. I think there is significant grey area in between.

post #102 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmoan2 View Post
 

 

I agree with this 100%. Their gimmicky drivers, fairway woods, and hybrids are clearly free-riding off the R&D put into designing these clubs by major manufacturers. I'll never buy one of these again. But the iron set I have just looks like a good, standard set of muscle back irons that cost me $300 vs. $1000 for a comparable Titleist or Mizuno set. I simply can't afford that. My wife would whack me over the head with my 6-iron and I want to be alive to play with the clubs. I have a hard time finding a used set of Mizunos released 8 years ago for $300 on E-Bay in very good condition. Excellent condition? That's usually $500 minimum.

 

If you want to save money on clubs, though, I think drivers and fairway woods can be gotten cheaply at Golfsmith or a place like that, allowing you to not need a Gigagolf or Pine Meadow. I got a Ping G15 that is superior to my old Gigagolf driver for $85 at Golfsmith - plays wonderfully. I got a RBz Stage 2 3W in excellent condition from GlobalGolf for about $100. An R11 rescue at GlobalGolf for $50.

 

As to Erik's point above about not supporting them with my cash to steal other's ideas, I agree to a point. Like I said, unless someone can show me how they directly ripped off an exact iron model from Titleist, Nike, etc. to produce the one I use from them, I don't see what they're doing with irons as wrong. Even wedges (though I find their lines inferior to name-brand wedges). They just seem like good irons that are cheaper. I don't buy the idea of boycotting entire companies if only a part of what they do is amoral. I still buy Nike sneakers even though there have been several lawsuits against them for atrocious labor practices overseas. I'd visit Dubai even though the laborers who built the gorgeous towers there were basically packed into work camps like roaches and treated awfully for penny wages. Am I going to buy a "Gigagolf Slider" driver that looks like someone painted a TaylorMade? No. But I won't never buy from them. If I boycotted every company that had some lousy business practice in place I'd need to grow my own food and build my own appliances. That's assuming I'm not a numbskull sometimes. too ;-)

Yeah, I agree with a lot of what you said, but I want to clarify what I said a bit. The driver page is the most salient example of how clearly they rip off the major manufacturers because we're often most familiar with  the trade dress of the drivers. But their iron sets are pretty easy, if not easier, to match up with whom they're ripping off. I don't want to do a bunch of links, but their PowerMax Slot or Power Slot (the club says one thing, the site says another) is so obviously a ripoff of last year's RocketBladez, it's ridiculous. Even down to the stripes on the cavity and the slot in the sole. I mean, I'd say that's a gimmick Taylormade put R&D into. And going across their lineup, I see Callaway's Diablo Edge, Taylormade's Burner 2.0, etc. As I added in a later post, I can't judge people for supporting or not supporting this or similar businesses, but I'd hesitate to agree that there's some sort of divide in terms of drivers vs. other ripped-off technology. That was just something I picked out for effect as an example because it was the first thing I noticed when I visited their website. The end effects of their cloning are the same and I have to lump them in together, in my mind.

post #103 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmoan2 View Post
 

I think this is a very excellent statement, but I don't think it's an either/or. I think there is significant grey area in between.

Oh, there's no question. It's total line drawing that comes down to what level of costs we're willing to bear in order to support our moral beliefs; it's 100% literally putting a price value on our beliefs. It's why I keep stressing that I can't judge people for doing business with this company because their moral valuations are necessarily unique to them, and yet are just as valid as mine.

post #104 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by dkolo View Post
 

Oh, there's no question. It's total line drawing that comes down to what level of costs we're willing to bear in order to support our moral beliefs; it's 100% literally putting a price value on our beliefs. It's why I keep stressing that I can't judge people for doing business with this company because their moral valuations are necessarily unique to them, and yet are just as valid as mine.

I don't think they are as valid as yours, necessarily. Yours sound a lot more "valid" - or at least more principled - than most! It's funny, now that I think about it, too, the only clubs on the page that are not clear knock-offs are the vanilla MB blades I own. I just hadn't been on the sight for about a year. I guess I'm a hypocrite if I don't buy elsewhere. Looks like I'm back to playing muni courses with brown-dirt greens for a while again!

post #105 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmoan2 View Post
 

I don't think they are as valid as yours, necessarily. Yours sound a lot more "valid" - or at least more principled - than most! It's funny, now that I think about it, too, the only clubs on the page that are not clear knock-offs are the vanilla MB blades I own. I guess I'm a hypocrite if I don't buy elsewhere. Looks like I'm back to playing muni courses with brown-dirt greens for a while again!

I wouldn't say that at all; we all have to make internal tradeoffs that we can live with. Lord knows I'm no saint. When I was in college and grad school I bought the cheapest meat I could get my hands on; as I get older I'll try to do what I can to pay attention to how things are made and support producers who treat animals better and act sustainably (my 21 year old self just threw up a little at hearing that). You do the best with what you have. It's as much about building and spreading awareness as it is about actual effects of your actions (which in any given individual case, are next to nothing). Enjoy your clubs, and don't feel bad at all! That'd be the worst possible outcome, haha.

post #106 of 121
From a pure capitalistic point of view I would say thy the market will deal with this correctly over time.. There is a big difference in my mind when a knock of is being sold with the originator having no retribution avenue and when there is a huge manufacturing operation being run and the big corporations have millions they can spend in taking the offender to court and putting a stop to this "stealing" if you want to call it that.

Like I mentioned since I'm not vested in the industry, ie I don't earn a living dealing with these big manufactures or am sponsored by them, then from a moral stand point do I really have an obligation to society to help in bringing this knock off down? This is what I question, and that is why making this issue a moral ground issue is not correct in my opinion.
post #107 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abu3baid View Post

From a pure capitalistic point of view I would say thy the market will deal with this correctly over time.. There is a big difference in my mind when a knock of is being sold with the originator having no retribution avenue and when there is a huge manufacturing operation being run and the big corporations have millions they can spend in taking the offender to court and putting a stop to this "stealing" if you want to call it that.

Like I mentioned since I'm not vested in the industry, ie I don't earn a living dealing with these big manufactures or am sponsored by them, then from a moral stand point do I really have an obligation to society to help in bringing this knock off down? His is what I question, and that is why making this issue a moral ground issue is not correct in my opinion.

Every thing you do requires a moral decision.

 

Anyway, being bored at lunch probably is leading me to be:offtopic:

post #108 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmoan2 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abu3baid View Post

From a pure capitalistic point of view I would say thy the market will deal with this correctly over time.. There is a big difference in my mind when a knock of is being sold with the originator having no retribution avenue and when there is a huge manufacturing operation being run and the big corporations have millions they can spend in taking the offender to court and putting a stop to this "stealing" if you want to call it that.


Like I mentioned since I'm not vested in the industry, ie I don't earn a living dealing with these big manufactures or am sponsored by them, then from a moral stand point do I really have an obligation to society to help in bringing this knock off down? His is what I question, and that is why making this issue a moral ground issue is not correct in my opinion.
Every thing you do requires a moral decision.

Anyway, being bored at lunch probably is leading me to be:offtopic:

Well, I guess your right we can discuss if everything someone does requires a moral decision some other place :)

I'll definitely update this thread if I end up going for the gigs golf clubs! I think this has been a very good conversation in my opinion!
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