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post #19 of 52

 


Quote:
Handicap allows for a competitive match in a situation where the disparity in skill levels of the players would otherwise prevent having a competitive match.

 

I agree completely - the handicap system is one of the things that makes golf such a wonderful game. I can go and have a good match with a scratch golfer, or equally an outright hacker, and we can all have an enjoyable game. This is really unique in any sport with which I've done - people of largely disparate skill levels can all play together happily. 

post #20 of 52

Here's my bottom line: GET A REAL HANDICAP and keep it up to date. In the midwest it costs about $30 to have a "home" course keep your handicap for you. You can post your scores on line. There are rules about how to post scores for 9-hole rounds and for partial rounds. The key is to post EVERY round that you are supposed to post. This way, your handicap is accurate and you can compete with others in a fair manner. It drives me nuts when a friend shows up to the course and says, "I don't play enough to keep a handicap. Put me down for a (whatever)." These are often the same friends who are being treated to a round of golf at someone's club that may cost our host $150 each. Find the $30 and get and keep a real handicap. 

 

My regular Saturday group plays a two-point game for 50 cents a point. It is rare for more than $5 to change hands after the round. We all have real handicaps and are competitive even though it is not about the money. Handicaps make it fair and more fun. I know that the guy I'm giving 19 strokes to has earned them and if he birdies a hole, everyone is happy for him -- not wondering if he's a liar.

 

Years ago I had a very fair handicap. I meticulously recorded every round. I had about 60 rounds that helped establish my handicap (I know only 20 count but I want to make the point that it was well established for some time). I usually played with an extended group of guys who had seen my game many times. We did a buddy trip with an even larger extended group. I was a rookie on this trip and knew about half the guys. I do not recall my index, but it had not moved much for years. On a short and tricky par 70 course, I was playing to a 20 handicap and I shot the round of my life. I had broken 90 once or twice in my life and usually shot just over 90 when I played well. That morning, I shot 75. Because I was known as an honest guy who had an honest handicap, most all of the guys were thrilled for me to have had the round of my life. If I had just guessed at a handicap, I'd have looked like a sandbagger and worse. That afternoon, on the same course, I shot 95. I managed to hang on and win our 4-day event and a lot of money. Without a real handicap, it would not have been the same.

post #21 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by rustyredcab View Post

Here's my bottom line: GET A REAL HANDICAP and keep it up to date. In the midwest it costs about $30 to have a "home" course keep your handicap for you. You can post your scores on line. There are rules about how to post scores for 9-hole rounds and for partial rounds. The key is to post EVERY round that you are supposed to post. This way, your handicap is accurate and you can compete with others in a fair manner. It drives me nuts when a friend shows up to the course and says, "I don't play enough to keep a handicap. Put me down for a (whatever)." These are often the same friends who are being treated to a round of golf at someone's club that may cost our host $150 each. Find the $30 and get and keep a real handicap. 

 

My regular Saturday group plays a two-point game for 50 cents a point. It is rare for more than $5 to change hands after the round. We all have real handicaps and are competitive even though it is not about the money. Handicaps make it fair and more fun. I know that the guy I'm giving 19 strokes to has earned them and if he birdies a hole, everyone is happy for him -- not wondering if he's a liar.

 

Years ago I had a very fair handicap. I meticulously recorded every round. I had about 60 rounds that helped establish my handicap (I know only 20 count but I want to make the point that it was well established for some time). I usually played with an extended group of guys who had seen my game many times. We did a buddy trip with an even larger extended group. I was a rookie on this trip and knew about half the guys. I do not recall my index, but it had not moved much for years. On a short and tricky par 70 course, I was playing to a 20 handicap and I shot the round of my life. I had broken 90 once or twice in my life and usually shot just over 90 when I played well. That morning, I shot 75. Because I was known as an honest guy who had an honest handicap, most all of the guys were thrilled for me to have had the round of my life. If I had just guessed at a handicap, I'd have looked like a sandbagger and worse. That afternoon, on the same course, I shot 95. I managed to hang on and win our 4-day event and a lot of money. Without a real handicap, it would not have been the same.


Great Post... Handicaps are pointless unless you abide by the handicap rules when posting them. Oh, and if you are not playing the ball down every shot then you also might as well not even keep one IMO...

 

post #22 of 52

Oh geesh I was off on the definition of a scratch golfer by 10- 20 yards....sue me.

 

On a more serious note that makes absolutely no sense to me. Say you have a 350 yard hole and at 100 yards out there is bunkers and water hazards and what not.  So that hole is rated quite hard.  But a scratch golfer would not hit driver, they would hit an iron or hybrid club to about 150 out and from that spot the hole could be super easy. I think it is steriotyping (spelling) a golfer.

 

As for handicap being a potential thing.  I golf on a 72.1 rated course 122 slope and even though my best round was 10 over my handicap was 8.9.  That makes absolutely no sense. (nice I have used that term twice now)

 

Now to net golf.  What other competition rewards you for being as average to yourself as you can be.  Do people who win net tournaments really claim that they have done anything?  "Ohh yeah i shot 108 gross but the course was giving me 36 strokes, and I beat out some scratch golfer who shot 73, go me."  Really not much to talk about to your buddies.

 

 

post #23 of 52
Quote:

Originally Posted by trackster View Post

 

As for handicap being a potential thing.  I golf on a 72.1 rated course 122 slope and even though my best round was 10 over my handicap was 8.9.  That makes absolutely no sense.

 

That 10-over would be a 9.2 differential. If your best 10 of your last 20 rounds were all exactly 10-over, that equates to an average differential of 9.2, for a handicap index of 8.8.  Did you in fact shoot exactly 10-over for your last 10 rounds? If so then your handicap is correct. If not then you or someone else is not calculating your handicap correctly.

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by trackster View Post

 

Now to net golf.  What other competition rewards you for being as average to yourself as you can be.

 

I have no idea what you're talking about. If you win a tournament with a good net score, you've played to your potential (or better), not your average. That's exactly why the handicap system calculates what your *potential* performance should be, not your *average* performance.

 

post #24 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by trackster View Post

Oh geesh I was off on the definition of a scratch golfer by 10- 20 yards....sue me.

 

On a more serious note that makes absolutely no sense to me. Say you have a 350 yard hole and at 100 yards out there is bunkers and water hazards and what not.  So that hole is rated quite hard.  But a scratch golfer would not hit driver, they would hit an iron or hybrid club to about 150 out and from that spot the hole could be super easy. I think it is steriotyping (spelling) a golfer.

 

As for handicap being a potential thing.  I golf on a 72.1 rated course 122 slope and even though my best round was 10 over my handicap was 8.9.  That makes absolutely no sense. (nice I have used that term twice now)

 

Now to net golf.  What other competition rewards you for being as average to yourself as you can be.  Do people who win net tournaments really claim that they have done anything?  "Ohh yeah i shot 108 gross but the course was giving me 36 strokes, and I beat out some scratch golfer who shot 73, go me."  Really not much to talk about to your buddies.

 

 


I am shocked that someone with an *11.4* handicap does not understand the handicap system.

 

As a side note, rarely does a 36 handicap beat a scratch golfer since most normal events are flighted. In singles competition, a scratch golfer will compete against the single digits and I am more likely to compete against 15+ HCs. The only time it comes up head to head is in match play - which is really what the HC system is geared towards.

 

post #25 of 52

I let the computer calculate my handicap for me.  I plug in the numbers and it spits them back out at me.  If you want to take it up with him go ahead.

 

As for not understanding the handicap system. People read a post about it, do a quick google search and then act like they are experts when they quote the PGA website.

 

Plus I think handicaps are like I've said a poor excuse so worse players can "compete".  

 

If I play a PGA pro who has a handicap of +5 or 6 (go ahead google and tell me that the tour average is something other than those 2 numbers I really don't care it's an example) he shoots 67 and I shoot 81, have I really accomplished anything?  He now nets 72 or so and I net 70 (say my course handicap was 11.0).  Net golf is just plain ridiculous.  That would be like if a running race was decided by who runs the fastest compared to their previous times, and not who actually crossed the finish line first.

post #26 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by trackster View Post

Plus I think handicaps are like I've said a poor excuse so worse players can "compete".  

 

If I play a PGA pro who has a handicap of +5 or 6 (go ahead google and tell me that the tour average is something other than those 2 numbers I really don't care it's an example) he shoots 67 and I shoot 81, have I really accomplished anything?  He now nets 72 or so and I net 70 (say my course handicap was 11.0).  Net golf is just plain ridiculous.  That would be like if a running race was decided by who runs the fastest compared to their previous times, and not who actually crossed the finish line first.


So don't play net golf. For the millions of others who like it because it lets them actually have reasonably fair bets, games, matches, etc., the handicap system seems to work pretty well.

 

I also don't think the outcome of a net round of golf is really how people will judge a PGA Tour player and an 11 handicapper. Pretty darn sure nobody will actually think the "winner" of your match is the better player.

post #27 of 52

If my "hole is rated" you mean the handicap for that hole, "hard" is not the factor. Holes are to be handicapped based on the differential between the expected (or actual) performance of an 18 handicap and a scratch golfer on that hole. Most people think the #1 handicap hole is the hardest. It is not supposed to be rated that way. It is supposed to be the hole where an average golfer and a scratch golfer will have the biggest difference in scores. For me, this creates an issue since that rating is often done from the back tees even though my group does not play those back tees. So, when my home course re-ated the holes, a par 3 became the #2 handicap hole because it is a very long carry over water and from the back tees, most 18 handicaps will not clear the 220 yard pond and avoid the woods. However, when you move to our tee, 175 yards is much easier and the differential is much less yet the rating is the same.

Quote:
Originally Posted by trackster View Post
...

Say you have a 350 yard hole and at 100 yards out there is bunkers and water hazards and what not.  So that hole is rated quite hard.  But a scratch golfer would not hit driver, they would hit an iron or hybrid club to about 150 out and from that spot the hole could be super easy. I think it is steriotyping (spelling) a golfer.

 

post #28 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by trackster View Post

I let the computer calculate my handicap for me.  I plug in the numbers and it spits them back out at me. 



Look, whatever your actual handicap is, it's calculated the same way for everyone and when used properly is a great way to gauge a player's potential, and allows the player who plays closest to that potential on a given day to win the match. You still haven't explained what "makes absolutely no sense" about your handicap.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by trackster View Post

 

As for not understanding the handicap system. People read a post about it, do a quick google search and then act like they are experts when they quote the PGA website.

 

The irony here is that the system is so simple, one *can* become an expert with a few minutes of research. The fact that you don't seem to understand it is evidence that you haven't made the slightest effort to try. (And btw, the PGA has nothing to do with the handicap system, so I doubt anyone quoted their website.)
 

post #29 of 52


Quote:

Originally Posted by rustyredcab View Post

Here's my bottom line: GET A REAL HANDICAP and keep it up to date. In the midwest it costs about $30 to have a "home" course keep your handicap for you. You can post your scores on line. There are rules about how to post scores for 9-hole rounds and for partial rounds. The key is to post EVERY round that you are supposed to post. This way, your handicap is accurate and you can compete with others in a fair manner. It drives me nuts when a friend shows up to the course and says, "I don't play enough to keep a handicap. Put me down for a (whatever)." These are often the same friends who are being treated to a round of golf at someone's club that may cost our host $150 each. Find the $30 and get and keep a real handicap. 

 

I stopped keeping a handicap about 6 years ago. After a car accident my game just hasn’t been the same and looking at my index shoot up was just depressing. Even when I had it I didn’t relish playing matches. Honestly I am out there to play myself not anyone else.

 

Now invariably a few times a year I play with people who insist on using handicaps and playing a match during the round. I try to beg off but in most every instance they have insisted that we simply have to play a match. Not my idea of fun but there are a few instances where I will actually agree to play the match (ie. when I get the private course invite from someone who is a business acquaintance). Just because you want to play a match doesn’t mean everyone wants to.

 

 

post #30 of 52

The expected difference between a scratch and a bogey golfer?  No two golfers are the same, what is hard for one  could be an easy play for another.  Rating holes this way seems like a poor way to do it.

 

I still like all the handicap experts here.  Does it really help your game?  Does being only able to enter a 7 or an 8 as a high score for a hole help you at all in the long run?

 

The fact that people sandbag their handicap for tournaments shows a flaw in the system.

 

What made no sense about my handicap was that I had never shot better than a 82 and my handicap was 8.9 (I'm talking about index, not differential for the course) at the time.  

 

And my last note.  2 years ago I shot 84 (+12) as around a 30 handicap.  And i get a few congratulations, but a whole lot of no you didn't, you broke the rules, your handicap was wrong, etc.  Handicap holds you back to what is expected of you.  Some one even said in a post that a 30 handicap should never shoot 84 ever.  What is that crap? 

post #31 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by trackster View Post

The expected difference between a scratch and a bogey golfer?  No two golfers are the same, what is hard for one  could be an easy play for another.  Rating holes this way seems like a poor way to do it.

 

What's the better system you have in mind?

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by trackster View Post

I still like all the handicap experts here.  Does it really help your game?  Does being only able to enter a 7 or an 8 as a high score for a hole help you at all in the long run?


The handicap system has absolutely nothing to do with helping your game. The fact that you think it does shows yet again a misunderstanding on your part of what the handicap system is designed to do.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by trackster View Post

 

The fact that people sandbag their handicap for tournaments shows a flaw in the system.

 

And the better system you have in mind would somehow prevent all cheating? Note that the current system does have safeguards, such as giving more weight to a tournament score if it was statistically very high or low.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by trackster View Post

 

What made no sense about my handicap was that I had never shot better than a 82 and my handicap was 8.9 (I'm talking about index, not differential for the course) at the time.  


And like I said, either you entered it wrong, it was calculated wrong (and we can probably throw that one out since you said a computer did it), or your best 10 of your last 20 scores were all 82s and 83s, in which case your handicap if 8.9 does indeed capture your potential very accurately. If you post the 10 scores that were being used, we can do the calculation here.

 

Is it not making sense because 82 is 10 over, so you think your handicap should be no more than 10? If so, then again you are not understanding the system and how it takes the rating and slope of the course into account.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by trackster View Post

 

And my last note.  2 years ago I shot 84 (+12) as around a 30 handicap.  And i get a few congratulations, but a whole lot of no you didn't, you broke the rules, your handicap was wrong, etc.  Handicap holds you back to what is expected of you.  Some one even said in a post that a 30 handicap should never shoot 84 ever.  What is that crap? 

 

If you shot an 84 as a 30 handicap, your handicap was likely wrong and although they should take you at your word once questioned about it, they were right to question you. I'm not saying you sandbagged, I'm just saying your handicap was likely wrong.
 


 

 


Edited by sacm3bill - 8/10/11 at 2:51pm
post #32 of 52

Nope my handicap was right at the time thank you very much.

 

As for my better system, if you haven't read my opinion here I'm a fan of doing away with net golf.  If you are not a good golfer then you shouldn't be rewarded for shooting close to your not good score.

 

The safeguards for preventing sandbagger also double as not helping your game.  A bogey golfer is not suppose to take more than a 7 or 3 over or something of that nature (go ahead and impress me with a google search).  But guess what if he actually had to take the 9 or 10 he got on that hole and had similar holes in that round his handicap wouldn't be as low as it is.

post #33 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by trackster View Post

Nope my handicap was right at the time thank you very much.

 

Heh, well I guess that settles it. :-) So much for my hare-brained theory that maybe someone who doesn't understand the system might not be using it correctly.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by trackster View Post

 

As for my better system, if you haven't read my opinion here I'm a fan of doing away with net golf.  If you are not a good golfer then you shouldn't be rewarded for shooting close to your not good score.
 

 

That's fine and dandy, and as others have mentioned you're welcome to not use net golf.  Not sure why your part in this discussion didn't end there.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by trackster View Post

The safeguards for preventing sandbagger also double as not helping your game.  A bogey golfer is not suppose to take more than a 7 or 3 over or something of that nature (go ahead and impress me with a google search).  But guess what if he actually had to take the 9 or 10 he got on that hole and had similar holes in that round his handicap wouldn't be as low as it is.


Yeah, his handicap might be a 30 even though he might be capable of shooting an 84...... HEY, I think we just solved your mystery!!!

 


 

 

post #34 of 52

I would respond to your post but I don't understand your 3rd part.  Anyways as I've said handicap is a way for worse golfers to try and compete.  If you are bad your should have to work your way to a competitive level, not be able to compete as bad golfer.  There is nothing to work towards in net golf.  My 2 cents is done.  You guys can go back to it.

post #35 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by trackster View Post

I would respond to your post but I don't understand your 3rd part.


Shocker.

post #36 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by trackster View Post

Nope my handicap was right at the time thank you very much.

 

As for my better system, if you haven't read my opinion here I'm a fan of doing away with net golf.  If you are not a good golfer then you shouldn't be rewarded for shooting close to your not good score.

 

The safeguards for preventing sandbagger also double as not helping your game.  A bogey golfer is not suppose to take more than a 7 or 3 over or something of that nature (go ahead and impress me with a google search).  But guess what if he actually had to take the 9 or 10 he got on that hole and had similar holes in that round his handicap wouldn't be as low as it is.


I think someone got beat by a high handicapper and never got over it, because this nonsense is getting more and more ridiculous. 

 

You have made it abundantly clear that you know nothing about how courses are rated, nothing about how slope is determined, no idea how handicaps are computed, no idea about what the purpose of handicaps are, and you revel in your ignorance.  So fine, don't play net golf.  But leave the rest of us alone.

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