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When "Breaking 80" is not always "Breaking 80"


Roblar
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"Breaking 80" is a big deal for a lot of golfers, but it seems to me that some 79s (or lower) are vastly different from others.

I just broke 80 for the first time a bit over a week ago.  I shot 79 on the course I almost always play, Westwood Golf Course, and I was thrilled.  A few days later though, and I'm left wondering if I'm a bit of a cheat. Here's why:

1. Westwood is a par 70 course.  On a Par 72, I would have shot 81.

2. I played from the White tees - not the Blues, not the Blacks.  That reduces the yardage to 5265, and the rating/slope to 65/103.  (Instead of 5810; 67.7/114 for the Blues or 6162; 69.5/116 for the Blacks.)

3. Westwood is a seriously forgiving course.  I only hit three fairways on my way to 79 (some near misses, some adjacent fairways).  While visiting family in California, I played three courses and never broke 90 --- primarily because fairway misses were more punishing.

So a few days later (and recovered from the hangover), I keep thinking, "Yeah, I might have broken 80, but it was a cheat.  Playing with the same game on a different course, I would have been lucky to break 90. I guess I can't crow too much about this one."

So I guess the questions I have are these:

1. Do you agree that I'm a "cheat"? Is "Breaking 80" ever not "Breaking 80"?  If so, where would you draw the line? What constitutes a legit "Breaking 80" for you? (I wouldn't talk about it at a par-68 course, but I think a lot of people would celebrate it at a par-70.)


2. Is "Breaking 80" a poor yardstick?  Shouldn't it be something like 7-over or better?

3. Given how different courses can be in terms of difficulty, should people even care about something like "Breaking 80"? Shouldn't it all be contextualized by the difficulty level of the course? After all, 100, 90, & 80 are just arbitrary numbers -- picked out because they are integers of 10...  Wouldn't it be better in some sense to talk about 10-over, 20-over... ?

4. If you're a single digit, you probably don't care about this now, but did you?  As mid-to-high handicappers, do you care about "Breaking 80"? Or do you have other goals?

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I was gonna say you are overanalyzing it but... 5200 yards from the whites????? Really? Maybe their White tee's are their senior tee's?

Anyways, be happy about breaking 80 for the first time and now you should have a new goal to break 80 on a real golf course.

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Originally Posted by Roblar

1. Do you agree that I'm a "cheat"? Is "Breaking 80" ever not "Breaking 80"?  If so, where would you draw the line? What constitutes a legit "Breaking 80" for you? (I wouldn't talk about it at a par-68 course, but I think a lot of people would celebrate it at a par-70.)

2. Is "Breaking 80" a poor yardstick?  Shouldn't it be something like 7-over or better?

3. Given how different courses can be in terms of difficulty, should people even care about something like "Breaking 80"? Shouldn't it all be contextualized by the difficulty level of the course? After all, 100, 90, & 80 are just arbitrary numbers -- picked out because they are integers of 10...  Wouldn't it be better in some sense to talk about 10-over, 20-over... ?

4. If you're a single digit, you probably don't care about this now, but did you?  As mid-to-high handicappers, do you care about "Breaking 80"? Or do you have other goals?

1)  You did nothing to think you were a cheat unless you actually cheated by not counting every stroke.  If this is the course that you always play, then breaking 80 is breaking 80.  All you can go by is the courses you play.  All of the courses I play are par 72s and on par 71 but if I shoot a certain score, then that is the score I shot.

2)  You're thinking too much about it, IMO.  That's what handicaps are for.  As long as you set a goal and work toward that goal, progress can easily be tracked.

3)  The breaking 80, 90, 100 are just good goals.  Nothing more, nothing less really.  But those scores are usually associated with your home course, IMO

4)  I absolutely cared about breaking 80.  It's a good goal to shoot for and when you reach that goal, it's very satisfying.  My goals changed after I could break 80 to getting to scratch.  Each set of people have their own criteria.  Some judge capability by handicaps and others by scores.  I play with one group of guys that have no idea what handicaps are. They just go by scoring when teaming up. So all of this really just depends on the individual.  But to say that you are a cheat is not very realistic.

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Bryan A
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Course knowledge helps your score.

Playing from closer tees helps your score.

If I play a video game that I've played before and I play on easy setting, does that mean when I complete the game I haven't *really* completed it? Of course it doesn't.

Breaking 80 is breaking 80 ; still an achievement so congrats!

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For me breaking 80 isn't breaking 80 if it's less than Par 70 or less than 6,000 yards.

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Don't sell yourself short man breaking 80 is breaking 80.  So what it was a par 70, maybe you would have birdied the extra par 5's if it were a par 72.  As far as hitting only 3 fairways, i've shot 70 before hitting only 2 fairways, and Tigers broken 70 many times only hitting a couple fairways so don't worry about that.

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I "broke 80" (79) on a par 71 course with a 66.4 rating and 102 slope (5,861 yrds.).  Not the most difficult course, but I still count it

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Yeah, I think it counts.  Heres why:

You can't control the course.  I went on a great golfing trip these past few days into New Hampshire.  There was a Donald Ross-Design course there (Lake Sunapee Country Club), it was very short (only 5800 yards), and had devilish fast greens and wicked rough around the greens.  In short, it didn't care if you were long (I had pitching wedge in my hand on most holes for 2nd shot) but killed anyone without a good short game.  I shot a 96, almost all from my iron shot not holding the green, poor chipping and poor putting.  On the front nine, I hit 7 greens in regulation (not stopped, the iron shot hit somewhere on the green) and shot +8.  Short course does *not* equal good score.  There are a whole lot of ways to make a short golf course hard.

I hit my driver straight and my long irons well.  I'm not a good putter.  On that course, I got torn up.  On my home course, I recently shot an 81 because the course is long but the greens are relatively easy, there isn't a whole lot of sand, and there isn't thick rough near the greens (i.e. it doesn't punish you for having a marginal short game).  Also, it had just rained heavily, and my long irons were holding the soft wet greens really well.  Is that a "real" 81?  I think so, even though the course sets up right to my strengths and doesn't really punish my weaknesses.  Its a "hard" course if you don't hit your driver straight because it has alot of fairway water, but its not a hard course if your straight off the tee.

Given how fast and how countoured those greens were at that course, I would honestly rather have a six iron in my hand on my home course than a nine iron in my hand at that course.  Seems wierd, yes, but it was so hard to hold those fast greens with an iron.

Also, keep in mind those extra two par numbers come from the addition of par 5s, which for a good player are usually the easiest holes.

Congrats.  Breaking 80 is a huge accomplishment.

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You broke 80 on an easy course from ridiculously short tees.  Of course that's less satisfying than if you did it on a less easy course from real tees.  But it's still an accomplishment.  Maybe now you should play the back tees at that course?

Personally I've only broken 80 twice (though weirdly with a 74 and 76!).  Both times were from long tees (~6800 yards both times), but both courses were very easy courses, with slopes of 117 and 119.  I'll also feel much more accomplished when I break 80 at a tough course where two or three big misses off the tee won't probably leave me with an open 2nd shot to the green, or at least a decent recovery to somewhere where an up and down for par is a good possibility like they do at the courses where I broke 80.

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I've had this problem too. There are so many details involved in assessing performance. Let me share my thoughts: [list] [*] For personal performance goals, set your goals at differentials*, not raw scores. For example, aim to card a <10 HDCP differential , not shoot <80. On a "fair" course those are pretty close to being the same, but that way the difficulty of the course is factored into your goals and you never have to wonder about "cheating". The course difficulty, quirks, and length are taken into account and par becomes irrelevant. This year I shot what I think was a 78 or something on an "executive" course: on each side there were 3 par-3s, a reasonable length par-5, and short par-4s. I carded a differential of 16.3. There's no way I'd claim I broke 80. * differential = (your score - CR) * (SR/113) [*] However, for tracking raw scores... We all do like to talk about raw scores, and most people are not familiar enough with the HDCP system to care deeply about differentials. Plus there's the sheer fun of putting up a score under a certain threshold. For myself, I've set a standard that I use to label a course as a "full, fair course". Any score I shoot on such a course is a fair score that I can use for any non-HDCP adjusted statistic purposes. I just make sure that these 4 conditions are met: The CR must be > 66 The SR must be > 105 Par must be >= 69 Length must be > 5500 yds Those aren't overly strict standards, but they do filter out easier courses and include pretty much all of the courses most people would consider "standard" full-size. For yourself, I'd draw on your experience with various courses and set your own standards for what you think constitute a "fair" and "full" course. After you set that standard, don't worry about it, take whatever you get. Everyone knows that people shoot their lower scores on easier courses. [*] One of my own questions: Also, to "break" score X, do you just score X or do you have to score strictly less than X? Thank goodness the first time I broke 90 I actually shot under 90, otherwise I wouldn't know what to do. Is there any commonly accepted definition here? If a pro shoots a 60, would he be considered as one of the pros having broken 60? [*] Another question: What about scores where you fill in using your handicap? My lowest carded score (on what I consider a "full" course) is an 85, but I filled in the last 5 holes using my handicap because it got dark. Does that count as my lowest score? I turned in the scorecard legally, but I didn't actually physically make all those scores, so it feels very hollow. This is another problem avoided by focusing on differentials, though. [/list] I think that CR & SR is much more important than any other measurement when you're assessing how hard a course is. Forget par, the length, what the rough is like, etc. Look at how hard the course has been evaluated to be and use that, because they took all the things you could think of, and more, into their assessment. This also leads to focus on differentials rather than actual raw strokes. And don't sell yourself short. Golf is hard, and an honest score is an honest score. If you've played golf long enough to know what a "fair" course feels like and what a "stupid easy" course feels like, draw up some "standards", either with precise measurements or just a feeling in your head, and then don't worry about it. :) [edit] Oh, and to answer your questions specifically: 1) [i]Personally[/i], the course seems a little too easy at 65/103 at 5250 yards. But you'll note that's not too far from my own standards, so it's totally up to you. 2) Anything involving absolute scores is imperfect. It's a nice yardstick, but breaking 80 vs breaking 81 doesn't mean much. For personal goals, I'd focus on differentials. 3) That's what handicaps are for. 4) I care about breaking 80, but my current goals are to score < 85 at my home course (comparing raw scores on the same course is always valid), card a < 10 differential eventually, and get my HDCP below 15. Breaking 80 on an arbitrary course is on the list behind those, but on my home course is almost identical to a < 10 differential.
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Simply....it's not cheating...it's just not as special.  But that's relative.  Yesterday I played Rock Barn (where they play a Sr. PGA tour event) and I shot 39 on the front with a double on the first hole and rough that was very penal.  Had never seen the course and I felt like I had shot even!  The back was a different story!


 

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I've broken 80 twice (77 and 78), both on courses at around 6600 yards, but the bottom line is that you did it. The course length may have contributed but you still had to swing the club, hit the greens, and make the putts.  Congratulations! Breaking 80 is a milestone and I just hope that both you and I can do it again!

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This course distance thing intrigues me; it's as if people think a course is made more difficult solely by the length of the course.

Surely if you have a course that is 6,295 yards long (par 71) but it consists of long, wide fairways, minimal hazards, no water and long planar greens it's easier than a course which is 5,781 yards long (par 70) and designed around a network of streams, hillsides, carefully (read: evilly!) placed bunkers and multi-tiered sloping greens?

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Review of Westwood Park Golf in Norman, OK (I assume that is the course OP is referencing)

It is, what it is: a no frill's, no chill's, good value kind of track! Great place to play if you are short on coin and confidence. Management is helpful and accommodating. The course is moderate to well maintained. A very high recommendation for beginning golfers or high handicappers (this course is a confidence booster ). A very high recommendation for those in seek of a good value. A below average recommendation for those who want a creative and testing round of golf.



Another Review:

Reviewed by: yekoms65, Shoots in the 90s , from Norman, OK

Summary:
very good beginers course that is well kept. wide fairways and medium to large greens. wide range of hole lengths.

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Originally Posted by MiniBlueDragon

This course distance thing intrigues me; it's as if people think a course is made more difficult solely by the length of the course.

Surely if you have a course that is 6,295 yards long (par 71) but it consists of long, wide fairways, minimal hazards, no water and long planar greens it's easier than a course which is 5,781 yards long (par 70) and designed around a network of streams, hillsides, carefully (read: evilly!) placed bunkers and multi-tiered sloping greens?



Depends on course rating and slope.

That 5,781 length course could be rated at 73 with a Slope of 135

You could go play a 6,600 yard course rated at 69 with a slope of 110

Or you could try what I did and play a 7300 yard, 74.4 rating, 142 slope course and realize what it would take to shoot under 80 on that course ( shot 87 )

I have broken 80 3 times, on a par 72, 6900 yard course but the slope is only 116 and the rating is only 69.

Course rating and slope are FAR more important to worry about than length.

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Originally Posted by Kieran123

Depends on course rating and slope.

That 5,781 length course could be rated at 73 with a Slope of 135

You could go play a 6,600 yard course rated at 69 with a slope of 110

Or you could try what I did and play a 7300 yard, 74.4 rating, 142 slope course and realize what it would take to shoot under 80 on that course ( shot 87 )

I have broken 80 3 times, on a par 72, 6900 yard course but the slope is only 116 and the rating is only 69.

Course rating and slope are FAR more important to worry about than length.


Yep exactly what I mean. It seems that a lot of people simply think "Long course = difficult course" which is complete crap.

In the UK we also don't use "slope" ratings on courses. The closest thing I'd say is our use of SSS and CSS scores?

http://www.thesocialgolfer.com/golf-forums/default.aspx?g=posts&t;=649

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Speed [77] Tempo [5] ToeDown [5] KickAngle [6] Release [5] Mizuno JPX EZ 10.5° - Fujikura Orochi Black Eye (with Harrison ShotMaker) Mizuno JPX EZ 3W/3H - Fujikura Orochi Black Eye Mizuno JPX 850 Forged 4i-PW - True Temper XP 115 S300 Mizuno MP R-12 50.06/54.09/58.10 - Dynamic Gold Wedge Flex Mizuno MP A305 [:-P]

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Originally Posted by Grumpter

Review of Westwood Park Golf in Norman, OK (I assume that is the course OP is referencing)

It is, what it is: a no frill's, no chill's, good value kind of track! Great place to play if you are short on coin and confidence. Management is helpful and accommodating. The course is moderate to well maintained. A very high recommendation for beginning golfers or high handicappers (this course is a confidence booster). A very high recommendation for those in seek of a good value. A below average recommendation for those who want a creative and testing round of golf.

Another Review:

Reviewed by: yekoms65, Shoots in the 90s, from Norman, OK

Summary:

very good beginers course that is well kept. wide fairways and medium to large greens. wide range of hole lengths.


Breaking 80 is still breaking 80

Bryan A
"Your desire to change must be greater than your desire to stay the same"

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