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# The Apex of the Putt - Page 4

What's the reason for most people aiming for the apex point of the putt?

I'd like to think that it's because they only read the putt from behind the ball. From that point of view people are trying to figure out where the apex of the putt is, and then aim for it. Why? Because it's the point where we want the ball to roll over.

I'm no putting expert, so I need you guys opinion on this thought. WHAT IF WE READ PUTTS FROM THE APEX POINT? My approach to do this would be to make a read from behind the hole. From there I would estimate where the apex of the putt is and make my read from that point back towards the ball. This way it will be easier to figure out where we wan't to start the ball for it to reach the apex point.

Why would I read the putt from behind the hole? Because this is where I wan't the ball to finnish. As I then work my way back, I'll decide where I wan't the ball to start. That's what we wan't to focus on when we take our stance.

Sounds reasonable?

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Depends on the person, a study done shown that people imagine projectiles in different ways, some see curves, some see straight lines. The problem is, if you see a straight line, and you aim at the Apex, now your aiming far to less break. What you should be reading is the tangent line to the curve you want.

Quote:
Originally Posted by saevel25

Depends on the person, a study done shown that people imagine projectiles in different ways, some see curves, some see straight lines. The problem is, if you see a straight line, and you aim at the Apex, now your aiming far to less break. What you should be reading is the tangent line to the curve you want.

True, the question is: How can we best figure out in what direction the tangent line of the right curve goes.

OK- I STAND CORRECTED ON THE "DEFINITION OF APEX" - MY POSITION REMAINS SUBSTANTIALLY THE SAME, THO - MAKE A "STRAIGHT" STROKE TO THE POINT THE BALL WILL BREAK TOWARDS THE HOLD - SMOOTH, STRAIGHT PUTT - DON'T "STEER" IT.  TOMM

Quote:
True, the question is: How can we best figure out in what direction the tangent line of the right curve goes.

Well its basic geometry, just read the putt as a curve, then if you pick a point a few inches infront of the ball then you have nearly the tangent. IF you pick a point on the curve further out then you are aiming way to less the break you need. That's why i aim for a point just infront of the ball.

Really for me its visualization, its tough to describe. The best way for me to see it is, i will point my body in the direction i want to putt the ball, then trace my eyes from the ball to the hole, seeing it roll. Really instead of aiming towards the apex, i will aim some distance perpendicular out from the hole. Lets say, 3 inches right of the hole. The apex is less than that. Like 2 inches. It wont be 1.5, because the ball breaks less right off the putter, and breaks more when it gets towards the hole, less speed equals more time for break. But i don't think there is a general rule of thumb due to green speed variances.

Really its just retraining how you read greens and how you putt. There's no trick, its just reading the putt right and aiming the putter correctly. Really Aim Point does very well in coming up with a way to do this. I am more of a feel putter. The reason is, my greens at my local course change through out the year. So i rather just be a feel putter. I do pretty decent. Probably just less than 2 putts per hole.

I think you just gotta visualize your line and feel for the speed.  And I agree with putting to a spot perpendicular to the hole.  I don't understand why a lot of people say they play the putt a foot past the cup or so.  If there's any sort of break close to the hole your putt is gonna break too late.  I play with a few friends that could be really good putters if they would just stop rolling it too far.

I watched this a little bit ago and thought it was pretty interesting.

I cringe when I miss on the low side because I know I did exactly what this guy demonstrates.  Unfortunately, I think I taught myself to overcompensate this fall and now I tend to hit over the top of the hole.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Strandly

I watched this a little bit ago and thought it was pretty interesting.

Thanks. Not really the topic here. If I get more time here in a bit I'll find an appropriate thread for it, though.

I visualize a line and pick a point that will achieve that line. Just about what Graham was talking about. My problem is reading the grainy greens we have in Florida.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vangator

I visualize a line and pick a point that will achieve that line. Just about what Graham was talking about. My problem is reading the grainy greens we have in Florida.

Recommend taking an AimPoint class. Also check this out,

http://thesandtrap.com/t/67811/grain-break#post_857011

http://thesandtrap.com/t/67811/grain-break#post_857040

http://thesandtrap.com/t/67811/grain-break#post_857125

Quote:
Grain affects speed, but it doesn't do anything to change the amount of break outside of changing speed. The absolute grainiest greens on the PGA Tour will vary by ONE foot on the stimp when you have a putt directly into the grain (i.e. uphill) and down grain (downhill). This can affect the read because on an uphill putt you have to hit the ball harder, so the ball has less time for gravity to make the ball break, but again: it's affecting the stimp +/- 1 on the grainiest greens on the PGA Tour.

Every article I've read on the internet so far indicates that grain does influence the break. Plus, I've putted on grainy grains for 35 years in Florida and I'm not dreaming when I see how the grain affects putts. I'm an engineer and I know computer model can be flawed. I just fixed one as a matter of fact. So I take some of the "science" with a grain of salt, just like global warming.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vangator

Every article I've read on the internet so far indicates that grain does influence the break. Plus, I've putted on grainy grains for 35 years in Florida and I'm not dreaming when I see how the grain affects putts. I'm an engineer and I know computer model can be flawed. I just fixed one as a matter of fact. So I take some of the "science" with a grain of salt, just like global warming.

I never seen any significant effect on grain other than on the speed of the putt. I've played in Florida many times. I usually play on Bent Grass 95% of the time. So I usually get a good perspective on the difference when I encounter it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vangator

Every article I've read on the internet so far indicates that grain does influence the break. Plus, I've putted on grainy grains for 35 years in Florida and I'm not dreaming when I see how the grain affects putts. I'm an engineer and I know computer model can be flawed. I just fixed one as a matter of fact. So I take some of the "science" with a grain of salt, just like global warming.

Mark Sweeney developed a computer program that, given a map of a green, determines how much a ball will break. It won an Emmy, and was the software they used to plot the AimPoint on Golf Channel for a number of years.

The software assumes there is no grain - just a uniform surface of a given stimp (the slopes are laser mapped to a millimeter or so). On the grainiest greens on the PGA Tour (in Hawaii), the software was off an inch or two over twenty feet. That could be accounted for by adjusting the speed of the green in the software by about 1 foot on the stimp - down when you're into the grain and up when you're down-grain. Also, if you could grow grainy grass on a little platform or something, then make it dead level and hit a 20 foot putt perpendicular to the grain, the ball would move less than an inch.

Your experience doesn't really mean a lot. Grain almost always grows downhill, so almost every time you're putting WITH the grain it's a downhill putt.

If the stimp is 10, and so uphill putts are like 9 and downhill putts are like 11… A twenty-foot putt at 45° on 3% slopes breaks:

• 16 inches from 45° uphill (18")
• 42 inches from 45° downhill (35")

The numbers in parentheses are what the greens would break at 10 on the stimp (i.e. no grain effect at all). Downhill putts break more. People often don't give this credit, so grain can, in their minds, get a lot more weight than its due.

I'm cynical about EVERYTHING. The first thing I do with new stuff is try to disprove it. But… I don't give a lot of weight to my "experiences" because they're a lot more likely to be wrong than some good science.

Grain affecting the break of a putt is a bit of a myth, or at the very least, a bit of mistaken identity or something: it affects the SPEED of a putt, which affects the read slightly. Not a lot, though. Two inches on that uphill putt. And 3% slope is pretty steep across a twenty foot section of green. 2% is far more common.

I need to come up with a project for a Master Black Belt project next year. I was going to do something stupid with the software life cycle and defect detection. Maybe I can convince my boss to allow me to simulate some grainy greens and collect some data.

The sniff test tells me that the grain affects cross putts and not just because of it's speed. Maybe I'm just a flat-earth kind of guy, but I'll still allow more or less break when dealing with cross-grain putts. This is a hard debate to prove one way or the other.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vangator

I need to come up with a project for a Master Black Belt project next year. I was going to do something stupid with the software life cycle and defect detection. Maybe I can convince my boss to allow me to simulate some grainy greens and collect some data.

The sniff test tells me that the grain affects cross putts and not just because of it's speed. Maybe I'm just a flat-earth kind of guy, but I'll still allow more or less break when dealing with cross-grain putts. This is a hard debate to prove one way or the other.

Come on dude, did you even read @iacas's post? He knows what he's talking about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mvmac

Come on dude, did you even read @iacas
's post? He knows what he's talking about.

I did read it. Very carefully.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vangator

The sniff test tells me that the grain affects cross putts and not just because of it's speed. Maybe I'm just a flat-earth kind of guy, but I'll still allow more or less break when dealing with cross-grain putts. This is a hard debate to prove one way or the other.

I'm sure what you think happens is more valid than fairly rigid scientific models that bears itself out in real-world testing. It's not a hard thing to "prove" - you simply seem to be unwilling to believe the proof. I'm not here to lie to you, nor can I - living in PA - shoot videos to demonstrate the proof to you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vangator

I did read it. Very carefully.

Your mistake is in thinking that it's "software." It's math. Physics. Far less likely to be wrong. Any "software" involved just does the calculations.

Unfortunately, it's hard to accept the proof through my computer screen. You may very well be right. but it goes against everything I believe I've seen for many years. It also goes against countless articles I've read. Your position is the only one I've read about grain not affect the direction of putts.

From one article...

Quote:
Here are some examples: If your putt is uphill and against the grain, you need to stroke it very hard. If your putt is downhill and with the grain, you need to stroke it very softly. If your putt is uphill and with the grain or downhill and against the grain, stroke the ball like a level putt. If your putt breaks left-to-right and the grain is growing left-to-right, play twice as much break as you read. If your putt breaks left-to-right and the grain is growing right-to-left, play the putt straight at the hole.
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