Improvement Loop - Page 2

Because Hogan and Moe created a swing that fit to them and they knew it and what the ball will do. The thing they knew was, that there swing will be that swing 100% of the time. If you are constantly trying to hit a straight ball everytime, your mind will be trying to modify your swing each time to get it there. This changes your swing, everytime you swing. Its impossible to play like that.

I think information is dependant on the person. I am an engineer, going to college, i have been drowned in a sea of information before, and come out fine. So i am use to it, you get someone who hasn't then it can do more bad than good. Thats were a pro might be a good aid, someone to take all that information and filter it. I can filter alot myself, so i am all go for as much information as possible. I just know to shut it off while playing, and pick what i want to use.

Quote:

Originally Posted by saevel25 

Because Hogan and Moe created a swing that fit to them and they knew it and what the ball will do. The thing they knew was, that there swing will be that swing 100% of the time. If you are constantly trying to hit a straight ball everytime, your mind will be trying to modify your swing each time to get it there. This changes your swing, everytime you swing. Its impossible to play like that.

 

I think information is dependant on the person. I am an engineer, going to college, i have been drowned in a sea of information before, and come out fine. So i am use to it, you get someone who hasn't then it can do more bad than good. Thats were a pro might be a good aid, someone to take all that information and filter it. I can filter alot myself, so i am all go for as much information as possible. I just know to shut it off while playing, and pick what i want to use.

There's a difference between knowing something and then putting it into practice. Basically when it comes to golf, who cares how much someone "knows" when in practice someone with less knowledge and more talent is beating the tar out of them.

I could provide other examples, but let me throw out the names Wi and Waite as players people on this site seem to think have reached golf swing nirvana and yet their actual over all golf games were/are below average compared to other pros. Certainly nothing worth copying, yet the positions they hit during these swings is something to marvel at.

Zoinks!  That young lady really really trusts!

Quote:

Originally Posted by sean_miller 

I could provide other examples, but let me throw out the names Wi and Waite as players people on this site seem to think have reached golf swing nirvana and yet their actual over all golf games were/are below average compared to other pros. Certainly nothing worth copying, yet the positions they hit during these swings is something to marvel at.

Sometimes. The thing is you don't often see their bad swings, or the things they're working on. Their swings are not "perfect" by any stretch, particularly when Charlie is in contention after 54 holes. :-P

But he knows, he understands, and for the most part he "does" the practice. It doesn't show up on the course all the time, but "improvement" at the PGA Tour level isn't really the topic. Sometimes those guys do best not understanding things if you know what I mean...

He flinched a lot more than she did!

"You hit me and you are Grounded for life!!!"

Quote:

Originally Posted by mvmac 

 

Good example of instructor Brian McGrew understanding the sequencing and what pieces to emphasize

 

 

Thanks Michael! We worked two days in a row in that sequence (for like 3ish hours total). First day (Friday) we started out with ball flight laws, shot descriptions, etc and then got into some setup and swing stuff. The second day (Saturday) we concentrated on tilts and then eventually got into working the ball (applying ball flight laws). Saw him and his group today (Sunday) at the turn and they said he was hitting it further than he was before, which I'm sure was quite a sight considering how long they thought he was before, and said he shot 36.

He went from talking about quitting the game to nothing but smiles. Amazing what good information does for people. 

EDIT* Setup is still off in the after. He has a tendency to stand too close. Think we got it worked out though. 

I think the "understand" part is the part people seem to ignore, gloss-over or assume is unimportant.

It seems to be a fairly dominant trait for a lot of people in my experience, whether it's in golf, troubleshooting a computer or baking a cake; people want to know what to to and then do it, not hear "all that rubbish about why it does what it does" etc. It's a frequent bug-bear of mine when someone says, "Dave, my PC has broken. Can you fix it?" and the second I try to tell them the reason why they broke and how to avoid wasting my time in the future they don't want to know - "It doesn't really fuss me why it's broken as long as it can be fixed" or "No I don't really need to see you fixing it so that I can fix it in the future myself".

At the other end of the spectrum are people like the vast majority of members on TST; we want to know what an issue is, what the fix for the issue is, why the proposed fix is the correct one, how we need to apply that fix and then we actually apply it. None of this "monkey see, monkey do" that people seem to want.

TST = Improvement Loop

Joe Public = Improvement A-B and repeat

Another problem people have with learning and the improvement loop is that everyone naturally compares the information they are being given with information they've heard in the past and then they weigh up what's more likely. With golf because there's been so much incorrect information, deliberate mis-information or just plain stupidity passed through generations when someone says, "actually the vast majority of the ball's starting position is the face angle at impact" they immediately think, "Well all these classic golf teachers and friends of golf pro's say otherwise, therefore you're wrong" unless you can provide them with un-arguable facts like video or physics equations.

Quote:

Originally Posted by uttexas 

On improving feel: I like the following quote from Hogan: "muscles ain't got no memory they do what I tell them to do.''

So, how do we improve muscle memory (feel) for the golf swing?
When learning a new complex task, I hypothesize that focus should initially be internal, then as the motion is ingrained the focus moves to more and more external.

"Feel" is built with variation hitting shots with focus and attending the feedback from those shots with criteria as impact and flight..
really simple.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MiniBlueDragon 

I think the "understand" part is the part people seem to ignore, gloss-over or assume is unimportant.

 

 

Another problem people have with learning and the improvement loop is that everyone naturally compares the information they are being given with information they've heard in the past and then they weigh up what's more likely. With golf because there's been so much incorrect information, deliberate mis-information or just plain stupidity passed through generations when someone says, "actually the vast majority of the ball's starting position is the face angle at impact" they immediately think, "Well all these classic golf teachers and friends of golf pro's say otherwise, therefore you're wrong" unless you can provide them with un-arguable facts like video or physics equations.

I find golf a game of bad instructions with a lot of theory.

I find it more to become video and to look right and loose the athletic edge.

When I talk to good golfers means scratch or + index, they have themselves little knowledge about what their body does in their swing.

Turning to a golf guru or doing what their teacher tells them to do is then easy even for them to do and create all kinds of compensations and flaws and they can still play with it.

Just not so consistent.

The amateurs seldom take the time to work trough their own swing due to thinking they should do it simply.

I dont agree necessarily they need to understand the swing, but to understand when they do things right at impact and what to use as feedback.

Swing thoughts isnt needed, nor is loosing the athletic portion of the motion which has become an effect aftr David Leadbetters work with Faldo.

As I do swing, and also dosnt look textbook video theory I get a lot of suggestions "what to do" so I ask them to hit a shot, they cant hit the target, so I go, seems I can do that so I continue with what I do then. ;)

Lot of good ideas inside instruction but it has been watered down so the player dont know what they mean.

Quote:

Originally Posted by boogielicious 

I've spent a lot of time learning about the swing through reading, watching video of myself and others and being a student with Evolvr.  I understand the physics of the swing (the math part).  I am becoming more proficient in understanding the parts of the swing and knowing why they are needed for better performance, but certainly not expert yet.

 

The one part I still struggle with the most in the "understanding" category or the transition to the "do it" category, is understanding how it is supposed to feel when I'm doing things right.  I have days when ball striking is excellent and it feels so easy.  Then on other days, whether it's due to body aches or stiffness, nothing feels quite right.  I do drills and sometimes I have the "ah ha" moment, but other times the drills are more difficult than they should be.  Some of my favorite parts in the S&T book are the players comments on feelings for different parts of the swing. 

 

I am a bit analytical about things like MDL.  Actually, a LOT analytical and I want to have more insight on the feel.  How do we improve our understanding of feel in the Improvement Loop? 

 

This is what I want to work on this winter when it's cold and dark outside.

 

 

boogielicious--I'm writing this as someone who worked in sports psychologist and how people learn biomechanical movements  for three decades, not as an experienced golfer, but I know enough to address your post.  When you read articles or watch videos from sports psychologist, I'm sure you received a lot of tips.  Basically, in the context of the left-brain/right-brain hemispherical model, they are essentially  saying that you have to find a way to tone down the left brain, which is the analytical side where analytical reason resides, and turn on the right brain, which is the holistic side, where feel and rhythm reside.  Some people who are highly left brained have difficulty toning it down.  To be fair, there are people who are highly right brained, and they may have difficulty turning on the left brain and may thus not have the patience to learn about the physics of the swing.  When I studied accomplished tennis players and volleyball players, I often could not tell if they were left brained or right brained.  The left brained athletes were able to incorporate the right brain into their performance, and the right brained athletes were able to incorporate the left brain into their performance.  I can tell you about a pro basketball player who looked right brained in his performance but turned out to be left brained.  When he took up tennis, you could then see that he was learning it in a left brained process, but quickly brought his right brain into this learning process.  Long story short--when you try to use what sports psychologists teach for your situation, they are trying to get you to tone down the left brain and turn on the right brain.

My golf professional told me, stop thinking about it, i am very left brain oriented, and this was enhanced by 5 years of engineering college work. So, for me i have a hard time shutting down my analytical side. You will see me on the course, constantly making swing, and feelings, trying to figure out things. When i am playing my best, is when i shut that down and let myself play loose on the course. Basically i need to get myself to understand that i know the swing, and from there its just execute. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by saevel25 

My golf professional told me, stop thinking about it, i am very left brain oriented, and this was enhanced by 5 years of engineering college work. So, for me i have a hard time shutting down my analytical side. You will see me on the course, constantly making swing, and feelings, trying to figure out things. When i am playing my best, is when i shut that down and let myself play loose on the course. Basically i need to get myself to understand that i know the swing, and from there its just execute. 

Add, grad school and 30 years of being an engineer, and it is even harder!!

Thanks Chipandcharge.  In other sports I have done, like bike racing, track, rugby (where I did a lot of kicking too), I never thought about technique much after learning initially.  I need to just let it go for golf.  I do it well for the putting side and need to apply that to the rest.

Quote:

Originally Posted by boogielicious 

Add, grad school and 30 years of being an engineer, and it is even harder!!

 

Thanks Chipandcharge.  In other sports I have done, like bike racing, track, rugby (where I did a lot of kicking too), I never thought about technique much after learning initially.  I need to just let it go for golf.  I do it well for the putting side and need to apply that to the rest.

booglelicious--your educational and career backgrounds and mine are  a close match.  Six years in engineering grad school and 36 years in engineering.  However, I also did almost three decades in educational and sports psychology and coaching volleyball and tennis.  I hope you have been reading and viewing videos on turning off the analytical side of the brain.  Everything I've seen will work, but some things more for one person than other.  The difficult is that you don't know which will work for you most effectively, so  you have to give them all a try.  The instructions usually tell you what to do, but they usually don't teach you how to make the instructions work.  It is like trying to curb test anxiety in school--many techniques offered, but you have to find the one that works for you.  I think there is a private channel for communication on this web site.  If we can make use of it, I could go into more detail on how to make the instructions on toning down the analytical mind work.