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Baseball vs Golf...The Most Important Difference - Page 2

post #19 of 46

I don't know that I would say they are "most important" but the two biggest obstacles from going from a baseball swing to something resembling a golf swing for me (by far):

 

(1) Palm up/palm down at impact in baseball.

 

(2) Diagonal path from the center of the head to the strike zone in baseball.

 

Other than those two things everything is fairly natural since I know how to throw.

 

Of course most people could break those habits faster than I could because most people aren't nuts enough to hit 500 baseballs a day for years and years in the backyard batting cage like I did.

(Just for fun and to pass the time).

post #20 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by buddhabob View Post
 

you guys might be missing something. What's important in my opinion is the leaning 'A' angle at impact in both baseball and golf. I call it the fully leveraged position. Many golfers just don't get this or are not athletic enough to do it and its not talked about alot with the pretty finishes sold in the modern swing.  The really long hitters in golf have a pronounced leaning back 'A' angle at impact with the head well back behind the ball.  Ryan Winther the longest hitter in golf today leans so far back that he never shifts onto his front leg in the classic one-legged stork- at- the- photo- shoot finishing pose. He swings upwards of 167 mph, about 40 mph faster than Bubba on average and yes, he was a minor league slugger and pitcher. The reason the leaning A is so effective is because it uses the principles of the trebuchet to catapult the clubhead thru impact. The action of the head and upper body moving back as the hips spin forward and thru intensifies the force at impact. Baseball sluggers use extreme leaning A position at impact, without it - no real power.

 

Golf is not a long driving competition.

 

What Jamie Sadlowski or your guy do has very little to do with how golfers play golf. You can apply some of what long drivers do, but certainly not all, and probably not even most.

post #21 of 46

One of the things many are missing with baseball is that there are many different swings. What I mean by this is a swing will look drastically different for a power hitter versus an on-base hitter, or for hitting for base hits vs squeeze plays, etc. Further, you can get away with not being in the fundamental, correct position and still make contact and get a  hit. 

 

Iacas, the hitters you put above are power guys who lean back and swing up. That said they still go forward first. Any power hitter will tell you that you step into it and that the power comes from the ground up and hips rotating. However, they then fall back on hit up. They can get away with this because of freakish power. Look at guys who hit long based off of swing speed and not strength and they do not fall back like that. A basic textbook swing for a percentage guy is stepping forward, rotating hips first and then upper body, and actually cuts down into the ball. You do not swing up. 

 

All that said I would say the similarities are: 1) ground up and rotate hips, 2) right elbow tucked at some point. The differences are that in baseball you can ignore any of these and swing completely different and get away with it. 

post #22 of 46

Two major differences:

 

1. No bunting in golf.

2. You don't stand back and admire your hit in baseball.

post #23 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by JKolya View Post
 

Iacas, the hitters you put above are power guys who lean back and swing up. That said they still go forward first. Any power hitter will tell you that you step into it and that the power comes from the ground up and hips rotating.

 

It doesn't change this simple fact: baseball hitters don't move their weight forward anywhere near like a golfer does. Many if not most have the majority of their weight on their back foot.

 

Weight, not pressure.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by JKolya View Post
 

Look at guys who hit long based off of swing speed and not strength and they do not fall back like that.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by that part.

 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JKolya View Post
 

A basic textbook swing for a percentage guy is stepping forward, rotating hips first and then upper body, and actually cuts down into the ball. You do not swing up. 

 

I agree. But their weight is still almost always back of center. Find pictures at impact of hitters from FO where their weight is clearly forward of center, let alone 75%+ forward as with many golfers? (75% weight forward can produce 90-95% pressure forward).

post #24 of 46

Most baseball swings kinda straddle the 50/50 line of weight shift. They do plant their front leg and they do rotate their hips. They do have steady heads for the most part. Most baseball swings do fall back to their back foot at some point. Which means that they weight has not transferred enough forward to carry that balance. 

 

 

I also think this is an advantage because it allows them to propel off the line if they don't hit a HR. They can bounce back and sprint forward. If they were weight forward so much, they would be v

 

Maybe the only guy to get near 90% is Ichiro when he does his Japanese hit and run move. Were he is basically already starting his run towards first as he slaps at the ball. 

post #25 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by boogielicious View Post
 

Two major differences:

 

1. No bunting in golf.

2. You don't stand back and admire your hit in baseball.

3. You can't play defense.

post #26 of 46

First off, apologies to @mvmac for taking a post of his that is 3 years old to the grammar thread.  I just assumed this was a new thread.  Anyways ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
 

 

It doesn't change this simple fact: baseball hitters don't move their weight forward anywhere near like a golfer does. Many if not most have the majority of their weight on their back foot.

 

Weight, not pressure.

I get confused on this very easily, and I think it's because you reference the weight to the feet.  I get that weight and pressure are different, and I think you outlined it really well in post #15, but it's hard for me to grasp the relationship between Mike Trout's weight and his back foot when it's clearly got nothing holding it down at impact ...

 

 

I would assume here that, similar to a golf swing, his pressure on the front foot is probably in the 90's at impact?

 

But what you're saying is that since his center of mass is still clearly behind that, perhaps dead center of his feet, perhaps even a little back ... that's why you'd say that he has 50-60% weight "on" his back foot?

 

Am I in the ballpark here?  (Pun very much intended ;))

post #27 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfingdad View Post
 

I get confused on this very easily, and I think it's because you reference the weight to the feet.  I get that weight and pressure are different, and I think you outlined it really well in post #15, but it's hard for me to grasp the relationship between Mike Trout's weight and his back foot when it's clearly got nothing holding it down at impact ...

 

When you jump in the air, do you still weigh the same amount?

 

Yes.

 

Freeze Mike Trout and put him on a scale. Both feet will touch and will register "weight."

 

Not embedding because it's somewhat but not fully relevant: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhuebaVgrWk .

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfingdad View Post
 

I would assume here that, similar to a golf swing, his pressure on the front foot is probably in the 90's at impact?

 

Almost definitely, if not up to 100% (because if his back foot is in the air, no pressure is being applied to the ground at that moment).

 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfingdad View Post
 

But what you're saying is that since his center of mass is still clearly behind that, perhaps dead center of his feet, perhaps even a little back ... that's why you'd say that he has 50-60% weight "on" his back foot?

 

Exactly.

 


 

The golf swing is a permanent (it stays forward) shift of both COM and COP forward in the downswing.

 

The baseball swing is a temporary shift forward of COP, and a COM that may shift slightly forward but which often shifts slightly back during the moments around impact, often with pressure spiking again under the trail foot when it lands (since it's almost a COM measurement at that point).

post #28 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsc123 View Post
 

3. You can't play defense.

Dang!  Three major differences!

post #29 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
 

 

The good or correct baseball swing is a temporary shift forward of COP, and a COM that may shift slightly forward but which often shifts slightly back during the moments around impact, often with pressure spiking again under the trail foot when it lands (since it's almost a COM measurement at that point).

FTFY.  ;)

 

I remember when I played ... half the reason why curve balls and change ups worked on us amateurs is because we tended to "lunge" forward at the ball and actually move our weight (somewhat) to our front foot.  Whoops.  Strike three.  Sit down.  Don't do that next time!

 

It was a mantra of our coaches ... "stay back, stay back, stay back."

post #30 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
 

 

It doesn't change this simple fact: baseball hitters don't move their weight forward anywhere near like a golfer does. Many if not most have the majority of their weight on their back foot.

 

 

 
 

 

I agree. But their weight is still almost always back of center. Find pictures at impact of hitters from FO where their weight is clearly forward of center, let alone 75%+ forward as with many golfers? (75% weight forward can produce 90-95% pressure forward).

I agree. I am not saying weight is forward in the golf sense in a baseball swing. I am saying that a good contact instructor teaches a weight transfer on the stride and the upper body staying over the lower. However, the overall weight at contact may still be on the back foot.  So its more like your center of gravity moving forward. An ideal contact swing is: stride with weight going forward, hips turning, right elbow down, and then swing down on the ball. Its difficult to explain because we here are used to using these same terms in regards to golf. There is a weight transfer in baseball, but it looks nothing like weight transfer in golf. At contact weight can be on the back foot, but your entire center of gravity shifted forward. Its like you are pushing off of that back foot to move forward. 

 

 Now, you have to account for the pitch (type, location, speed) which often results in actual swings looking way different than ideal. In a hitting clinic where you hit off a tee and work on the motions you are taught weight transfer, center of gravity moving forward (not falling away), right elbow, ,and cutting down into the ball. 

 

 

Strength vs swing speed: Was referring to an old way of describing two different power swings. Its the difference between a McGwire vs Griffey swing. McGwire muscled the ball over while Griffey simply had a fast swing that produced power. Their swings (at times) look completely different in regards to weight and positioning. Again, I am not disagreeing with what you said or saying that weight is forward.  The weight is backwards at contact in both swings for McGwire and Griffey. There are others though like Frank Thomas and Bryce Harper who are completely off the back foot at contact and sometimes well into the follow through. 

post #31 of 46

 

\Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas View Post
 

 

It doesn't change this simple fact: baseball hitters don't move their weight forward anywhere near like a golfer does. Many if not most have the majority of their weight on their back foot.

 

 

I was fortunate to play baseball at a high level (Ontario Blue Jays followed NCAA Div 1).  I was primarily a pitcher when I got to University but before that, both a pitcher and center fielder. 

 

From my own experience, without a doubt, my weight transfer in golf has everything to do with my experience as a pitcher and zero to do with my experience hitting a baseball.  In fact, everything positive I brought over from baseball to Golf was from pitching.  If you look at many of the good "former major league" baseball players who are all excellent golfers, almost all of them were pitchers (John Smoltz, Greg Maddux are great examples).

 

The habits that are ingrained by the baseball swing are horrible habits for the Golf Swing and most times, a former baseball player who is "now a golfer" must exercise those baseball swing habits completely out of their muscle memory.

post #32 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deryck Griffith View Post
 

If you look at many of the good "former major league" baseball players who are all excellent golfers, almost all of them were pitchers (John Smoltz, Greg Maddux are great examples).

 

Not to diminish the rest of your post in any way at all, which is great, but I think that a bit of that has to do with the fact that they get four days off between starts*… :)

 

* (Click to show)
And tend to be more analytical or perhaps of a better mindset for golf.
post #33 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
 

 

Not to diminish the rest of your post in any way at all, which is great, but I think that a bit of that has to do with the fact that they get four days off between starts*… :)

 

* (Click to show)
And tend to be more analytical or perhaps of a better mindset for golf.

 

Haha.  Those 4 days off are indeed great for the Golf game!  I know some guys who played (and other who still are playing) in the Majors and the stories of the "pitchers" playing in between starts are good ones!

 

I agree with the mental aspect; specifically, mindset.  The one thing though when I started playing golf seriously 6 or so years ago; my muscle memory tendency to "push off" of the mound with the inner part of my right foot translated very well to Key #2 "weight forward."  In some ways (important to say "some ways"), Key #1 "steady head" translated also as when you pick up your leg in the pitching motion, you must stay centered over the rubber (you can't really lean back outside your right foot.  You can however turn your torso around towards second base, again similar to the golf swing, as you raise you leg WHILE STAYING CENTERED) and then "push off" from that point. 

 

Everything on the way down though from that point after pushing off (Inline Impact (flat left wrist), Diagonal Sweet Spot) does not translate from pitching much and definitely doesn't translate from the baseball swing.

post #34 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deryck Griffith View Post
 

 

Haha.  Those 4 days off are indeed great for the Golf game!  I know some guys who played (and other who still are playing) in the Majors and the stories of the "pitchers" playing in between starts are good ones!

 

I agree with the mental aspect; specifically, mindset.  The one thing though when I started playing golf seriously 6 or so years ago; my muscle memory tendency to "push off" of the mound with the inner part of my right foot translated very well to Key #2 "weight forward."  In some ways (important to say "some ways"), Key #1 "steady head" translated also as when you pick up your leg in the pitching motion, you must stay centered over the rubber (you can't really lean back outside your right foot.  You can however turn your torso around towards second base, again similar to the golf swing, as you raise you leg WHILE STAYING CENTERED) and then "push off" from that point. 

 

Everything on the way down though from that point after pushing off (Inline Impact (flat left wrist), Diagonal Sweet Spot) does not translate from pitching much and definitely doesn't translate from the baseball swing.

:-D The reason those pitchers can play golf is because they drop the barrel of the bat "into the slot" so nicely (sarcasm). Ideal for golf but is like a blind dog finding a bone for hitting a baseball very well.

post #35 of 46



Love this thread. A pressure shift in a baseball swing is vital if you want any power. The weight back part that you see in a high level swing (knee behind the foot, hip behind the knee, shoulders behind the hips) is a shallowing out technique that flattens out the swing arc with proper arm work. In some swings you will see the hips going forward ahead of the shoulders during their stride, in others hitters use lower back extension (belt forward) while keeping the head steady. Good hitters are not falling back at contact. And virtually all high level hitters do have weight going forward during their stride. The load in baseball is a weight and a pressure shift to the back foot.
post #36 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deryck Griffith View Post

Haha.  Those 4 days off are indeed great for the Golf game!  I know some guys who played (and other who still are playing) in the Majors and the stories of the "pitchers" playing in between starts are good ones!

I agree with the mental aspect; specifically, mindset.  The one thing though when I started playing golf seriously 6 or so years ago; my muscle memory tendency to "push off" of the mound with the inner part of my right foot translated very well to Key #2 "weight forward."  In some ways (important to say "some ways"), Key #1 "steady head" translated also as when you pick up your leg in the pitching motion, you must stay centered over the rubber (you can't really lean back outside your right foot.  You can however turn your torso around towards second base, again similar to the golf swing, as you raise you leg WHILE STAYING CENTERED) and then "push off" from that point. 

Everything on the way down though from that point after pushing off (Inline Impact (flat left wrist), Diagonal Sweet Spot) does not translate from pitching much and definitely doesn't translate from the baseball swing.

Any swing is on an arc. A baseball swing is a flatter arc than golf, but an arc nonetheless. So how does controlling the path of the sweet spot not applicable? Everything any good hitter does relates to controlling the path of the sweet spot with speed.

And as you should know the pitchers arm works on an arc as well. A lot of things that I do with my students involves controlling their arm path in a diagonal fashion consistently. Thus enabling command.
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