or Connect
TheSandTrap.com › Golf Forum › The Practice Range › Reading Room › "Ben Hogan's Magical Device" by Ted Hunt
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

"Ben Hogan's Magical Device" by Ted Hunt - Page 2

post #19 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kinesiogolfer View Post

 

 

One thing that has always struck me is how this bowed wrist idea is not very apparent, certainly not to the extent that he shows in the book. This really puzzles me. If it is as big a deal as he points out in 5 Lessons, why do his slow motion swings not emphasize it at all? Is it because it was something he "let happen" in a dynamic swing but not something he actually forced to happen?

 

 

Yes I think it may have been a "moment" in the swing to emphasized for the average golfer that will have their lead wrists in dorsi flexion. In demonstrating somewhat of a dynamic motion, emphasizing palmar flexion at impact might end up looking very un-dynamic lol 

post #20 of 28

OK. I'm standing at what some people call P3. My arm is pointed to a spot a foot behind the ball near my right foot, the back of my left wrist faces roughly out perpendicular to the swing plane and target line and somewhat upwards, the club head is as you say "inside" the hands and to the right of my right hip. The club shaft is parallel to the ground and pointing back and behind me a little. Agreed?

 

Now I want to do pure palmar flexion. I keep my arm pointed to the exact same spot on the floor, and keep the back of my forearm (near the wrist) pointed at the same spot out in space. Holding all of this I then simply allow my wrist to just hinge my hand down as though it were a door hinge here's what happens for me: My palm now faces my right hip, the club head drops towards the floor, the shaft hits my thigh and the whole club is now below the delivery plane. In fact, to get to the ball from here I'll likely hit my right foot. The club head is low and now way behind me.

 

Since I did not disturb my upper arm or my forearm in doing this motion, the back of the wrist still faces outward perpendicular to the swing plane but more horizontal and less upward. With a weak 5 Lessons grip, the club face points where the back of the wrist and hand point. To get to the ball from here with a square club face I'll need to rapidly roll the arm and/or forearm until the back of the wrist and hand face forward along the swing plane and target line. This is more than 90 degrees of rotation compared to its relation to the swing plane now. If I don't do any rotation and bring this package to the ball the club face will be very open.

 

If instead of using your wrist as a door hinge (palmar flexion), you had someone tug on the club head while you supinated strongly, your wrist would bow, the wrist and clubface would now turn to face down towards the ground and forward along the swing plane. The club will not have dropped down and more behind you but  instead will still be on the delivery plane.. You can take this package to the ball on the delivery plane and come in square with no further rotations. In fact if you externally rotate your upper arm a little you can come in with a closed club face from here.

 

I agree its probably a stupid argument as its clear that just about everyone you tell to palmar flex at P3 instinctively throws in a bit of supination or upper arm rotation because they know they've got to square up the club head somehow. I'm just saying that it might be better for instructors and pupils if we really were clear on what's really going on....take the guess work and mystery out of it so to speak. Then we can really consistently train the proper movements.

post #21 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kinesiogolfer View Post
 

OK. I'm standing at what some people call P3. My arm is pointed to a spot a foot behind the ball near my right foot, the back of my left wrist faces roughly out perpendicular to the swing plane and target line and somewhat upwards, the club head is as you say "inside" the hands and to the right of my right hip. The club shaft is parallel to the ground and pointing back and behind me a little. Agreed?

 

 

I think you mean P6. P3 is left arm parallel to the ground on the backswing.

 

Here's P6

post #22 of 28

Yep, you are right I did mean P6. I fell into using my own dictionary. I don't know the TGM/MORAD stuff, and it sometimes shows. I say P3 because its the 3rd time in the swing when the shaft is parallel to the ground. so for me there are just 5 parallels in a swing. I should have brushed up my TGM before throwing the term around and adding more confusion.

 

By the way, I watched the Coleman video this morning, and now I am really guessing that Hogan really made no muscular effort to palmar flex or what he incorrectly terms "supination." It definitely doesn't happen in his slow motion practice swings. Instead he comes into delivery in slow motion and no bowing, and then hits through the ball with a rapid true supination. Its far more exaggerated than what you see in real swing video but does match that Ravielli drawing on pg 102 of a rolling release. I'd have to admit that from the book and from the demo slo-mo swing he really had an intention to fully roll the release. That sort of blows my mind!?? I guess you'd have to say that it just doesn't ever happen because he pivots so hard that the left hand just never actually rolls all the way over like that.

 

It says something about the pressures he is intentionally developing even if the motion itself never really unfolds in his full speed swings.

 

I also have to assume, as I think you are saying, that the wrist bowing happens dynamically. It happens because the wrists stay supple and conform to other pressures occurring during the swing that "encourage" that position of the wrist to happen? Its a vapor trail of other pressures, not an actively contrived position?

post #23 of 28
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kinesiogolfer View Post

Yep, you are right I did mean P6.

If you only palmar flex (and let the right wrist do what it must given your grip) at 6 it shuts the face.

But I'm sure we've moved past that now. Right?
post #24 of 28

Hmmmmm....I guess it depends on what you mean by "shut." I'm still game for the discussion because that was my original intention for posting....that Ted Hunt's description was not accurate and that most people combine other movements when they say they are only doing palmar flexion. No animosity here. I think we are using different definitions and different points of reference so its a learning oportunity for me. "Shut" could mean "closed" or it could mean "de-lofted" or a combination of the two. I'd say its both, but mostly de-lofting. I'll admit I could be wrong. Here is an experiment.

 

Build a model. Cut out a cardboard circle for the swing plane. Glue or tape a hinge flat to it at p6 out at the edge so one leaflet hangs off the disc. The hinge face pointing out from the cardboard plane represents the back of the left wrist at p6. The hanging leaflet is the left hand. Raising the loose leaflet is pure dorisflexion and lowering it is pure palmar flexion....pure hinge motions.

 

Now our goal at impact is to get the club face square to the target and to the path of club travel (the rim of the swing plane). Since by definition a weak grip is where the club face and back of the left hand/ left wrist are pointing in the same direction, this means we also have to find a way to get the back of the left wrist and hand to face the same direction the rim of the swing pane is pointing at impact ie the target.

 

Now, opening and closing the hinge by itself is a good representation of pure wrist palmar flexion and dorsiflexion. However there is no amount of hinging at P6 that will ever square the hinge faces to the club path indicated by the rim of the cardboard. As long as you ONLY hinge, the face representing the left wrist will always point perpendicular to the swing plane. The hinge face representing the back of the left hand can point a lot of directions depending on the amount of hinge, but facing along the club path to the ball is not one of them.

 

To achieve square at impact something else has to happen. We have to actually pick up the hinge and realign the pivot axis 90 degrees so it is square to the swing plane. In other words we have to ROTATE it counterclockwise until it stands on end. Palmar flexion only moves the hand on the wrist in a pure hinge motion. It does not alter the direction the hinge pivot axis points.

 

We want to rotate the left wrist pivot axis 90 degrees so the wrist  and hand face the target and are square to the swing plane at impact. This requires an arm rotation, either supination, shoulder rotation or a combination. These motions close the club face significantly. If we look at the model again, the degree of palmar flexion at p6 doesn't really decrease the amount of rotation (closing) still needed to get square so we can say that palmar flexion is not really helping to close the club face in any practical sense.

 

Finally, you can do one more experiment. Place the hinge at impact position square to the the cardboard disc with the hinge faces pointing forward along the target line. Now play with the free leaflet of the hinge. No amount of hinging back (palmar flexion) will ever get the face pointing left at impact. In a weak grip the club face is aligned with that face. If you hinge enough into palmar flexion you can see that the face actually points down severely and right of target. It won't ever point left of target line unless you dorsiflex the hinge........ aka.....a FLIP.

 

Palmar flexion does give the look of a "shut" club face. However from the above does it actually close the face or just mostly de-loft it?

post #25 of 28
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kinesiogolfer View Post
 

Palmar flexion does give the look of a "shut" club face. However from the above does it actually close the face or just mostly de-loft it?

 

I disagree with almost everything you've said (to which I've responded, that is), and I feel I've been fairly clear in what I've said. I feel that you have to alter your hand path to have palmar flexion result in a "square" to "open" (right-pointing) face if that's "the only change you make."

 

I don't care about Ted Hunt's magical device, though, which is why I've not read most of what you've written. I've only keyed on the few things you've said that struck me as wrong, made a video, and posted about those things.

 

Please investigate other sections of the site. There's more to this site than this thread. Thanks.

post #26 of 28

At the risk of abusing this thread, I'll post this and shut up and let other people talk. How would you describe this move in the first two photos?..palmar flexion or something else? Is the wrist merely bowing or is something else going on? Does the back of wrist continue to face in the same direction during this move or not? if it changed what do you have to do to get the change? (text below is from Kelvin Miyahira but come up with your own conclusions first!)

 

h24.jpgh25.jpgh28.jpg

The key difference is that Hogan may have been wide open at the top of his backswing but he closed his clubface much earlier in the downswing (through supination of left forearm) and used right wrist flexion, supination and ulnar deviation (seen from target line view) to impede any more clubface rotation thereafter. Some have coined this method a “closed to open” release pattern. I think it is appropriate in Hogan’s case. Hogan’s clubface goes from quite an open position on the left to closing early via supination of the left forearm. Look how square the clubface is just before impact! Early supination of the left forearm and left wrist flexion are apparent. Post-impact compare with Philly’s closed clubface. Hogan’s right hand is holding more extension (cupping) and less rolled into pronation than Phil.

post #27 of 28

Palmar and "shut" at 6

 

post #28 of 28
The two most important lines in the book for me are that the downswing is almost automatic, the golfer instinctively hits through. The section about supination is to study it, and so when swinging becomes more proficient at it, I think the key is the chain action, the sequence, that golf shots should be planned and played instinctively. That novices would best keep their hands unconscious. But again - hit through instinctively.

I think several lines in the book show this method is about automatism, repeat ability, instinct. He talks about these positions, eg the bent right elbow, being important, but that you can't 'simulate' them, they are positions you swing through as a by-product of your own swing. All part of the chain action. He talks about being the 'captive' of your own swing.

He talks also about his weakening the left hand as a personal preference, that could be adopted by people with the same swinging pattern ie same build, athleticism, flexibility, perhaps even tendency to be flat and hook the ball. He says clearly that it is advantageous not to have to make adjustments.

In my view, he meant that you set up and execute a chain action instinctively, if any value in doing something conscious was to be gained I believe he says the backswing rewards conscious attention more than the downswing, which, once the hips start it, becomes almost automatic.

The second line for me is about the drawings clearing up the involved language of instruction.

For me, he supinate his left forearm or instinctively does so, but that is the move. The sequence on p102 is of supination and the highlighted palmar flex ion is for me, a position that exists, but as a by product of supination. I don't think he really cared about the squareness of the club through the ball, or where it occurred in the downswing; I think he cared about dynamics, motion and the body instinctively squaring the blade through the motion of supination, learned instinctively through practice.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Reading Room
TheSandTrap.com › Golf Forum › The Practice Range › Reading Room › "Ben Hogan's Magical Device" by Ted Hunt