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Myth of Maintaining Address Flexion in the Rear Knee - Page 10

post #163 of 199
The flexibility of the pro's is so much more than the typical amateur. The amount of coil they can achieve with less hindrances is so obvious. Any amateur, may need to bend their left elbow, lift their left heel, flare feet and straighten their back legs, to allow a decent backswing of sufficient depth. Some of these things might create too much of a good thing for the pro's. Trying to emulate what they do is a futile task for most of us. Sure if you are young, supple and your shoulders have not been affected in a bad way from work or sports then keep it bent and see if it helps. I just think more of how Sam Snead swung a club is easier on most of us in the long run.

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post #164 of 199
Quote:
Originally Posted by mpb1472 View Post

The flexibility of the pro's is so much more than the typical amateur. The amount of coil they can achieve with less hindrances is so obvious. Any amateur, may need to bend their left elbow, lift their left heel, flare feet and straighten their back legs, to allow a decent backswing of sufficient depth. Some of these things might create too much of a good thing for the pro's. Trying to emulate what they do is a futile task for most of us. Sure if you are young, supple and your shoulders have not been affected in a bad way from work or sports then keep it bent and see if it helps. I just think more of how Sam Snead swung a club is easier on most of us in the long run.

 

I think you're overstating the differences between PGA Tour players and average players. They're a bit more flexible, but not as much as you seem to believe in my opinion. I don't have full measurements of "everyone" to verify this, but they're not super flexible. Flexibility only goes so far. If you're too flexible, it's almost a limiting factor to speed and things can easily get out of sequence.

post #165 of 199
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
 
 Flexibility only goes so far. If you're too flexible, it's almost a limiting factor to speed and things can easily get out of sequence.

 

So true, and I'm glad someone finally said this. There are so many old guys that I know who can't ever reach parallel on the backswing due to physical limitations, and I don't think any of them realize how helpful this is to their consistency. A high handicapper who is insanely flexible may have a harder time improving than some out-of-shape stiff. Overloading the shoulders and arms on the backswing leads to really bad sequencing and rhythm issues.

 

People don't realize how important it is to have a relatively short and controlled backswing with not an excessive amount of wrist cock, forearm rolling, arm loading, and shoulder turn. It's so much easier to find the ball at impact. 

 

Sorry for the off-topic post. 

post #166 of 199
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mpb1472 View Post

I just think more of how Sam Snead swung a club is easier on most of us in the long run.

 

And "most of us" includes plenty of tour players. 

 

I think some of you guys are almost looking at decreasing flex in the rear knee as a "fall back" option if you fail to achieve a centered pivot with a fully flexed rear knee. Decreasing flex in the rear knee, gaining flex in the lead knee, is a much more common way to make a centered pivot than trying to turn 100 degrees with a steep enough shoulder/hip angle, while not decreasing flex in the rear knee. May not be "common" in the way a centered pivot is taught by most instructors but it's common in how players achieve it.

post #167 of 199
Quote:
Originally Posted by JetFan1983 View Post
 

 

So true, and I'm glad someone finally said this. There are so many old guys that I know who can't ever reach parallel on the backswing due to physical limitations, and I don't think any of them realize how helpful this is to their consistency. A high handicapper who is insanely flexible may have a harder time improving than some out-of-shape stiff. Overloading the shoulders and arms on the backswing leads to really bad sequencing and rhythm issues.

 

People don't realize how important it is to have a relatively short and controlled backswing with not an excessive amount of wrist cock, forearm rolling, arm loading, and shoulder turn. It's so much easier to find the ball at impact.

 

Sorry for the off-topic post.

Michael Phelps comes to mind.  Hank mentioned he was too flexible which was working against him.

post #168 of 199
When I see the pro's in person and on TV, first thing I see is how still they remain while being able to turn so far in their backswing. I got a little off topic and perhaps was a little unclear in suggesting that the right knee straightening was only for flexibility challenged individuals to adopt. Your thread shows many supple players doing it. Sorry for clouding it up a bit.
post #169 of 199
Quote:
Originally Posted by mpb1472 View Post

When I see the pro's in person and on TV, first thing I see is how still they remain while being able to turn so far in their backswing. I got a little off topic and perhaps was a little unclear in suggesting that the right knee straightening was only for flexibility challenged individuals to adopt. Your thread shows many supple players doing it. Sorry for clouding it up a bit.

 

It's fine.

 

And as for the bold… Key #1. :) Though we like the word "steady" more… :-D 

post #170 of 199

The only issues I have with this analysis (and most analysis) is that I feel like it's neglecting the fact that these players are all trying to play a certain shot shape with nearly every shot they hit.  They're rarely trying to hit it straight because hitting a ball perfectly straight doesn't help maximize shotmaking.  Also, most tour pros prefer to play a fade shot as their stock shot because they're all trying to avoid a hook.  Knee flexion has a lot to do with shot shape.  In the video it appears that all these guys are playing to holes that setup for a fade shot.  Ask any amateur watching these analyses if they want a fade to be their stock shot shape and they'll mostly all respond no because they want to hit that nice baby draw.  Straightening the back leg to stay "stacked" over the ball and have a steep shoulder and hip angle is a must for a fade shot.  However, for a draw shot you would want to keep the back knee flexed so as to keep more weight on it throughout the backswing allowing the shoulders to turn flatter and the hips to not turn hardly at all which helps bring the club into the ball on a flatter plane and produce a draw.  

post #171 of 199
Quote:
Originally Posted by rtylerg View Post

The only issues I have with this analysis (and most analysis) is that I feel like it's neglecting the fact that these players are all trying to play a certain shot shape with nearly every shot they hit.  They're rarely trying to hit it straight because hitting a ball perfectly straight doesn't help maximize shotmaking.  Also, most tour pros prefer to play a fade shot as their stock shot because they're all trying to avoid a hook.  Knee flexion has a lot to do with shot shape.  In the video it appears that all these guys are playing to holes that setup for a fade shot.  Ask any amateur watching these analyses if they want a fade to be their stock shot shape and they'll mostly all respond no because they want to hit that nice baby draw.  Straightening the back leg to stay "stacked" over the ball and have a steep shoulder and hip angle is a must for a fade shot.  However, for a draw shot you would want to keep the back knee flexed so as to keep more weight on it throughout the backswing allowing the shoulders to turn flatter and the hips to not turn hardly at all which helps bring the club into the ball on a flatter plane and produce a draw.  
Poppy cock!

Plenty of pros play a push draw, not all, but plenty. Rory is well know for hitting beautiful, high push draws and he definitely releases flex in his trail leg. I'm on a phone so I can't link any pics but I'm sure someone else will.

Weight forward is a large component of hitting a draw as it tends to move your path outward or to the right. Weight slightly back will do the opposite, moving your path inwards or to the left, this will cause fade bias. Of course, this all assumes you are controlling the face well enough to start the ball on an appropriate line.
post #172 of 199
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rtylerg View Post
 

Knee flexion has a lot to do with shot shape.  

 

I agree pros aren't trying to hit it straight but knee flexion has more to do with making a centered pivot than curving the ball a certain way. If anything staying centered with a neutral alignment at address will tend to produce a draw.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by rtylerg View Post
 

Straightening the back leg to stay "stacked" over the ball and have a steep shoulder and hip angle is a must for a fade shot.  However, for a draw shot you would want to keep the back knee flexed so as to keep more weight on it throughout the backswing allowing the shoulders to turn flatter and the hips to not turn hardly at all which helps bring the club into the ball on a flatter plane and produce a draw.  

 

 

You can certainly hit a draw with the knee decreasing in flex. Doing the flatter shoulder/hip turn pattern can rotate the swing direction too far OUTward, where a lot of good player get into trouble. Staying centered helps the path not "bend" too far left or right.

 

Both of these guys play draws and they both turn "steep" with the lead knee increasing in flex and the rear knee decreasing in flex.

 

 

post #173 of 199

Do you think it's also important to have the front knee move slightly inwards? I know when I work on knee flex, I often overflex the front knee and pull myself closer to the ball and this leads to a bunch of problems (Shanks, heel contact, standing up on the downswing to make room).

See how macs knee moves in a little bit and not straight down. 

post #174 of 199
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meesh View Post
 

Do you think it's also important to have the front knee move slightly inwards? I know when I work on knee flex, I often overflex the front knee and pull myself closer to the ball and this leads to a bunch of problems (Shanks, heel contact, standing up on the downswing to make room).

 

 

Yep no doubt there needs to be some inward movement of the left knee. General measurement is that the knee goes from outside the left hip at 1 to inline at 4. Left foot being flared not only helps on the downswing but it also helps regulate how far back the left knee can go.

post #175 of 199

Did anybody happen to see the Golf Magazine June issue? In the your game section there is an article called how to fix your death move.

Maintain your right knee flex yo blast your irons longer than ever.

 

Best two things I got from you guys is to let it straighten and flare my feet. 

Mags and tips can driven you crazy.

post #176 of 199

 

Okay, so here are my problems with this article. I won't even mention that his "START" position is not very well balanced. He seems to be way on his heels. Could be the camera position, though.

 

- "Maintain your right knee flex" is ambiguous. Maintain the same? Some of it?  What?

- "Straightening" your right knee technically means "to make straight." Does he mean "extending"? If so, why not say that? Too wordy? Not really. He then says "a locked right knee" implying he means to truly "straighten."

- The drill with the stick implies that he means ANY extension of the left knee.

- You lose your spine angle? Huh? Flat out wrong. Heck, his spine angle looks the same in his NO and YES pictures (it's within a few degrees - he's a bit steeper (IMO in a good way) on the left).

- Extending your trail knee does not limit how far you can rotate back. Flat out wrong. WTH? Goodbye power? Please.

 

post #177 of 199

But he's a Top 100 Teacher, Erik! :-P 

post #178 of 199
Quote:
Originally Posted by JetFan1983 View Post
 

But he's a Top 100 Teacher, Erik! :-P

 

I know. :)

 

"Friends" with him on The Facebook, too… but no, I'll be good.

post #179 of 199
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JetFan1983 View Post
 

But he's a Top 100 Teacher, Erik! :-P

 

I know.

 

Scary, isn't it. 

 

I seriously don't know who this guy was watching during the 2012 and 2014 Masters.... how can people keep promoting this crap??

post #180 of 199
If this is being good I want to see the bad version. a1_smile.gif Say what you really mean! a1_smile.gif

Detail question. What do you mean @iacas by any extension of the left knee? If you let the right knee extend doesn't that make the left knee bend more? Oh wait, by keeping the rear knee locked via stick it can make the left knee do some not so good things?

Not a fan of the wording power-rich. Who talks like that? Just say great source of power if that's the case. We're not talking vitamins here.
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