What can you tell me about forged irons? - Page 3

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmanno 

Mizuno's do feel like no other brand..... Hands down, I have akways played Mizuno's at home and when traveling used whatever rentals were supplied. Taylormade and Callaway mostly. Both great clubs with hot faces that hit the ball the same or longer but did not have the feel you get from Mizuno's. plus they have the best finish available out there.

Well if they feel better than Callaway or TM rental clubs, that's really all the evidence I need.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmanno 

Mizuno's do feel like no other brand..... Hands down, I have akways played Mizuno's at home and when traveling used whatever rentals were supplied. Taylormade and Callaway mostly. Both great clubs with hot faces that hit the ball the same or longer but did not have the feel you get from Mizuno's. plus they have the best finish available out there.

While I like my Mizuno irons, that's just not true.  One of my playing partners has Callaway X-Forged and they "feel" very similar to my Mizunos.  Like I said in an earlier post, I think a lot of that "feel" is due to the sound that the softer forgings make compared to cast clubs.  I can't hit most Game Improvement irons, which are the standard cast clubs, but it has nothing to do with them being cast, I don't hit anything that has a lot of offset well.  I'm also only 5'6", so most off the shelf clubs are too long and need to be more upright for me, so forged allows me to have a set of clubs that actually fits my swing.

Id agree that Mizunos feel about the same as other forged irons.  They dont have some magical formula.  The fact is that the vast majority of forged irons are made by Endo of Japan (forged either in Japan or Taiwan).  The companies tell Endo what shape they want and Endo makes it.

Mizuno does use a different forging house but forged is forged.  The only exception to this that I can think of would be some irons like what Titleist (AP2) and TM (MB and MC) where the clubface is forged but the rest of the clubhead is cast.  While it does greatly cut down on the manufacturing costs (and those companies claim that it does effect feel), I believe that it does muffle the feel somewhat.

Yes, nobody talks about the shape of a club. It's as if profile, toe height, rocker, sole thickness distribution don't matter!

It's either Forged vs Cast. CB  vs Blade

Quote:

Originally Posted by B-Con 

IMHO, I think that the weighting and design of the club is going to make more difference than cast vs forged. One club may very well feel differently during perfect impact, but I would suspect this is due to the club's design. If someone thinks they can feel a difference between a forged and a cast club I would believe it, but they would probably also find that kind of variance amongst just forged or just cast clubs themselves.

Agree.  Cast or forged is not the end-all, be-all attribute in selecting an iron.  Infact, if a person is looking at an iron with a wide sole and deep cavity, cast vs forged isnt all that big of a deal because all of that perimiter weighting dampens feel to the point where, IMO, cast/forged means little.

I think, and this is my opinion, is that the forging process is different for each manufacturer, and some manufacturers, like Miura, use the forging process to build a club to exact specs. That is also why they use the spin hosel process -- for exact specs.

Let's take an example, with Miura, they don't hit it three times in succession, and say "mission accomplished." It is a process of hitting it, clearing out excess material, hitting it again, getting rid of material to make the head more precise, and then hitting it again. I saw a quote from Mr. Miura where he likens the process to making the clubhead as if the steel is made of fine sand that is compacted tightly - there are no air pockets -- you have one solid clubhead; and in his process, you have a club that is made to exact specs.

I've not heard a club maker say a Miura head is not built to spec - they are always accurate to spec and club makers can build an entire club without additives when the club is made to spec. So their forging process works for their objective.

Now does a forging process translate to feel you can discern from today's cast irons?

I don't know - I think "feel" is unique to every individual - and feel also depends on the shaft and grip -anything that affects what goes to your hands. With forgings, it seems Endo forgings (Bridgestone, Epon, et al) have a slight clicky sound, whereas Miura and Mizuno, for example, have a more muted-softer sound. I think the best forgings in terms of staying on spec stick with simple, traditional designs - blades and traditional perimeter weighting.

When you see forging with all sorts of metals, I think you introduce some advantages - higher tech solutions for more forgiveness - but you lose consistency in terms of staying on spec.

I think the casting process has some advantages in terms of being able to do more with a club head - i.e., use two piece club heads - part forged and part cast to offer more forgiveness in certain heads.

During the '90's, forged had an advantage over cast in terms of consistency - forged clubs tended not to have "hot spots" whereas cast, with the exception of Pings, tended to have hot spots - many people pointed fingers at Callaway during the '90's for their hot spots.

But now, cast quality has improved. I've owned a lot of clubs - Pings, when hit on the screws, feel like nothing, which is exactly what a forged club feels like when hit on the screws. I will say this - some forged clubs have a more solid or dense "feel" - but they are few and far between - I only noticed a difference with a Miura CB-201/Nippon combo over the last 20 years. Other than those clubs - when hit on the screws, you've got to be very good to discern any difference between a full shot with a forging or cast club.

I can only discern a difference in wedges - on short, finesse shorts unless the steel is really harsh in the cast club. Other than that, don't get worked up about it. 

It's how the club looks and feels in your hand and how much confidence it gives you -- this is a "between the ears" game after you get a swing. Get something you love.

Well i think the problem with designs a few years back, it was extremely hard and expensive to do what Mizuno did with there new MP's, make a forged club with perimiter weighting. They get away with it by using two different materials, the isnert is not as dense, so it shifts weight to the edges. Casting is easier to make, and cheaper, but the materials are not as soft. Though clubs like the Taylormade Burner's use a face insert that is a bit softer. So really there isn't that much disparity, unless you are going full blade irons. Really if you can't find an iron to fit your game, then i will be shocked.

As for feel, the best club i hit were the Mizuno MP 59's. But, the AP2's and Callaway forged were a very close 2nd in feel for me. Honestly, i don't see that as a deal changer when i am selecting clubs. If i am buying irons, i try to find an iron that still gives me some forgiveness, because i rather have a safety net on the golf course on those rare toe hits. So i like to see some perimeter weighting, a slightly higher MOI than a full blade. I rate how it looks higher than feel, because i have to be comfortable setting up to the club. As for performance, i never seen any clubs that truely out perform another on center of the clubface hits. The only performance gains you see is if you hit a high MOI iron, so your mis hits will go farther than blade style irons. Thats why some people think, "Oh this gives me 5 extra yards" Well you got that 5 extra yards on a mis hit probably. There really isn't much yardage difference on center hits between irons.

So for me,

1) how does the iron look at address

2) does it have some perimeter weighting

3) do i like the feel of the hits

4) what are the stock shaft selections (this effects overall price of the iron)

Cause i wont go spend loads of money on irons, because i can hit any iron really, and i can play golf with any iron. So as long as i can find a stock golf shaft that gets close to what is optimal for me, which saves me money, that is a big plus. Thats why i am leaning towards callaway forged because they offer Project X flighted irons shafts as a stock shaft. Ping would cost me nearly 20 dollars more per club.

I play both cast Callaway Razr X and Mizuno JPX800 Pro. Can't tell the difference in "feel". In fact they each play identical to the other. Whenever I get the urge for a new set of clubs, instead I just switch to the other set. Heard a club maker once say the difference between forged and cast is forged is like a jar full of sand and cast is a jar full of marbles. Couldn't tell it by me.

A few years back i read of an experiment where some club maker painted both forged and cast irons all black. By looks alone the pros could not tell any difference and guess what...when hitting the ball the pros could not tell any difference. Yeah, sure the pros hit the ball solid everytime but also may have an enhanced sense of 'feel'. For humble golfers, like most of us, only marketing, reputation, status  and cost make any difference. I am not saying that confidence in tools makes no difference but confidence is best cultivated through success. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old1964 

Forged clubs "feel" softer at impact and are often preferred for that kind of feedback. You know when you hit it dead center and when you don't. ...

 

The softer "feel" relates in part to the type of metal used in the iron's head. Forged irons tend to be made of softer metal than cast irons.

I have X20 Tour irons, a smaller-headed cavity back, and I can tell on impact what quality of shot I have hit. Not so with the larger-headed regular X20s I played prior to getting the Tours. Base X20s had more metal in each head, possibly dulling any tuning fork effect.

I've avoided forged irons in part because I often play on public courses with less-plush, harder turf, and the harder steel of the cast irons better resists bending during a season of play.

Note that most of your forged irons tend to be marketed toward the Player's - GI end of offerings, because forging is a more expensive manufacturing process and forged irons tend to cost more than cast. But, the Nike VR.S Forged are a GI/SGI forged iron that I can readily hit - as long as I have the right R.flex shaft.

Because most forged irons are marketed toward the Player's - GI zone, the stock shafts tend to be rather stiff. This also would make them appear difficult to hit, if the shaft doesn't bend enough for the average golfer.

Cast or forged is mostly a matter of preference. Some prefer simple gross utilitarianism, some revel in the visual beauty, the crisp solid sound, and the smooth dense tactility of fine iron hammered to shape by a skilled artisan.

Look in your mother's kitchen. You'll likely find a cast iron skillet, and several hot forged blades.

Look in your father's toolbox. Probably find a cast pipe wrench, and a set of forged box/spanner wrenches.

Each to it's purpose. Each to his own.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old1964 

Forged clubs "feel" softer at impact and are often preferred for that kind of feedback. You know when you hit it dead center and when you don't.

 

 

I have always felt that the "feel" argument is overstated when it comes to forged clubs. I and I assume many other golfers can tell when they hit a cast club dead centre and when they do not. I have never hit any of the SGI so that may be the case with them but I find it hard to believe that a player could not feel a dead centre and an off centre hit with any type of club. It may not be the same feel as a forged blade but shots will feel different across the face of cast clubs. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmanno 

Mizuno's do feel like no other brand..... Hands down, I have akways played Mizuno's at home and when traveling used whatever rentals were supplied. Taylormade and Callaway mostly. Both great clubs with hot faces that hit the ball the same or longer but did not have the feel you get from Mizuno's. plus they have the best finish available out there.

Mizuno's are great but if you have never hit a set of pre 2000 Hogan's I guarantee they will give your Mizuno's a run for their money. 

For me, the feel of a club is getting blurred more and more, GI's are getting better feel, still not as good as forged, but its not nearly as wide a gap as it was 10 years ago. 

Forged are made from softer steel, the reason being, it would be way to labor intensive to forge anything else. 

Forged irons tend to have a better shaft selection, specifically for those with higher swing speeds

Forged irons tend to have not as strong loft, so a GI 6 iron would closer to a Forged 5 iron, but these assumptions are getting more blurry as well

Forged irons tend to have a higher COG, which lowers the ball flight

Forged irons have less a MOI, which means the sweet spot is smaller. This basically means, mishits will end up shorter than miss hits from GI irons

Forged irons tend to have a thinner face and less offset.

Forged irons tend to have a thinner sole, which digs into the ground more than GI clubs

Forged irons tend to be more expensive

Now, forged can mimic GI clubs, Titleist AP2 have a slot in the back which basically makes it a cavity back, but its forged. Mizuno MP 59 (i think), uses two materials, basically it looks like a muscle back, but plays more like a GI club because the density difference shifts the weight towards the perimiter. The new Mizuno H4's have varying soles from higher to lower loft, making the longer irons more like hybrids, and the shorter irons more like a typical scoring iron. 

So you can see how forged and GI are getting mixed together more. 

Also note that many companies, like titleist use a stronger steel, but play around with the sound the ball makes on the club. Our ears tell us alot about the feel, sometimes more so than our hands. I usually can tell the strike of the ball by the sound off the clubface more than the feel through the hands. The ears are closer to the brain, and our reaction time is faster through hearing. 

Personally i would recommend the mix technology, i rather have that small bit of forgiveness in the iron when i need it. Especially since i play one shot type 90% of the time, i don't need that much workibility. So i try to balance maximum feel with the amount of forgiveness i want.

You mean at 5' 6" the clubs need to be flattened not more upright.