LPGA blows it with Morgan Pressel slow play penalty - Page 6

Did anyone see this or just hear about it? Is there any video? 

Quote:

Originally Posted by bplewis24 

 

 

So you were 100% serious about wanting to see the following:

 

 

 

 

I find it hard to take that serious.

 

Brandon

Why not? What is better: Tiger makes the shot and gets a 2 stroke penalty or he can see a count down timer letting him know how quickly to play. Sure neither one is golf the way the sport was envisioned but the second one seems a lot fairer. Now neither is the way I would want to play golf but the second method is much clearer than the first. 

Munoz said she was the slower player in an interview.  But she also said Pressel was not fast. Here are some quotes.

"I think that slow play is one of our biggest problems on tour," Pressel said. "You know, I think that what bothers me the most is that we were given sufficient warning and she really didn't do anything to speed up and then I was penalized for it."

Munoz said was apologetic, adding she was surprised Pressel was penalized.

"I know I was slow and I really apologized for that and I told her, but I do feel both of us were slow and she was the only one getting penalized, and that was not fair and I know that," Munoz said. "I would never make her lose a hole."

I am pretty sure if you saw the hole (they did a replay after the event) without commentary (I don't know if it was added in afterwards or not) you wouldn't think of it as anything out of the ordinary.

They showed the video after the event but I don't know if the commentary was added in afterwards as it was talking a lot about slow play. I don't watch a lot of LPGA coverage but it didn't stand out as slow play. You see guys back away all the time when the wind comes up and walk the 10 yards up a hill so that they can see the green where they are going to land the ball.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bplewis24 

And he didn't practically hand the match to Munoz.  That's a bit revisionist.  It clearly altered the end result, but Pressel was 1up with something like 7 or 8 holes remaining.  Nothing was set in stone at that point.  And I'm wondering how many of you that continually suggest that Munoz was the slower player actually watched the match to know this for a fact?  Do you know for a fact it's seldom applied?  How do you know it's arbitrary?

 

Brandon

Quote:

Originally Posted by rustyredcab 

Did anyone see this or just hear about it? Is there any video? 

http://www.golfchannel.com/media/golf-central-monday-feature-1/

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Desmond 

There is a rule, and there is a "right" way and a "wrong" way to apply the rule, and a right time and wrong time to actually apply such a rule.

 

When was the rule last applied?

 

This is not stroke play ... this is match play. If they had not applied the rule in a long time or sporadically, they picked the wrong time to apply the rule.

 

They sucked in the application of the rule.

The right way and the wrong way? The right way is to apply the rule evenly all the time. There's been no evidence presented that this is not the case.

The rule was last applied this year. Twice.

Who cares if it's match play or stroke play? The ruling had been applied more recently than "in a long time."

Quote:

Originally Posted by newtogolf 

While I agree with the decision of the LPGA to penalize Pressel I think some of you are holding too tightly to the letter of the law or in this case rule book.

 

IMO The PGA and LPGA need to be consistent in enforcing slow play penalties otherwise it will continue to appear that they are singling out specific players. 

I think they're consistent. Do you have evidence that they're not?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elvisliveson 

And the rules official, Doug Brecht, has a history of calling out the game's top players at inopportune times just to grandstand. For instance, last year at the KIA Classic he penalized Michell Wie two strokes (the margin by which she missed a playoff) for grounding her club in a hazard, even though she claimed she did it for balance after playing her shot (which did not get the ball out of the hazard).  If Tiger or Phil said they ground the club for balance that would have been the end of it. They wouldn't look at a video that was clearly inconclusive for 25 minutes and decide against the player.

I mirror the other people who responded to this: Wie clearly broke the rule and was lying through her teeth about her "balance." Tiger or Phil would not have lied through their teeth like that. Ever. Michelle looked like a complete stooge arguing that point.

If you think that video was "inconclusive" then I'll just shut up, because I have nothing nice to say as in NO WAY was that inconclusive.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elvisliveson 

Of course I did and it was inconclusive. I don't think anyone could possibly and positively conclude she was lying unless they have an axe to grind with her.

Virtually everyone can, and they're right.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zipazoid 

Gigging a player for slow play isn't like grounding in a hazard or not replacing a marked ball - those kinds are black & white, cut & dried. You either grounded the club or you didn't.

And Morgan either took way too long or she didn't. Turns out, in this case, she did.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zipazoid 

I would imagine there were others - were they gigged too?

Why are we supposed to rely on your imagination as a compelling argument?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Desmond 

Let's put it this way, if you were in Morgan Pressel's shoes, what would be your argument?

I wouldn't have an argument. I also wouldn't have played so slowly I'd have earned a penalty.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Desmond 

Remember, this is in match play, where both players are slow, and a rule that is sporadically applied.

 

Prove it. You keep saying sporadic like it's a fact. It's not.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Desmond 

If you're going to have rules, enforce them equally and for everyone.

 

There is more to this story than just a sporadic ruling...

Prove that they're not enforced equally. Just repeating the word "sporadic" doesn't make it true.

Munoz herself said she was playing just as slow as Pressel why weren't they both penalized? 

"I know I was slow and I really apologized for that and I told her, but I do feel both of us were slow and she was the only one getting penalized, and that was not fair and I know that," Munoz said.

If you put people on a clock you should have a clock visible for them to check.  Imagine basketball or football without a count down timer. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas 

I think they're consistent. Do you have evidence that they're not?

Quote:

Originally Posted by x129 

 

If you showed 100 people the video of Morgan playing that hole, I doubt very many would cite her for slow play on that hole.  This wasn't a Kevin Na standing over the ball forever or a Keegan Bradley backing off and spitting ever shot.

Really?  I thought it was blatant that she was playing slow by watching that.

Here's Jerry Folt'z take

Quote:

Originally Posted by zipazoid 

 

http://www.golfchannel.com/media/golf-central-monday-feature-1/

Thanks for the link. The video does not show them playing the hole -- edited to just show MP shots. Not sure, but it seems like they started the clock on the video when she pulled a club -- and very unclear what the trigger is on the green. Could she have avoided starting the clock by walking up to and looking toward the green (second shot) without a club in her hands? Avoid starting the clock on the tee by discussing yardage and wind without a club in her hands? Also seems like bad luck that she had honors on the tee, then was away, then was away on her putt. Again, without seeing Munoz shots, I'm not sure who played when and from where. Easy to walk up to the green while other is playing if they are not behind you. Can't do that if you'd be in their way.

Lastly, if MP lost the hole when she putted out because of her total time, why did the official allow Munoz to putt? The hole was over wasn't it? Or if Munoz have done something wrong -- like touch her line -- would the hole still have been in play? If she also had taken too long to finish would they both get the penalty or is it first one in loses? If slow play is the issue, why let a player line up a putt and take that time when the hole was over?

I have given out slow penalty penalties twice in our city tournament.  The first time we had a strict time par policy and the entire group was given a one shot penalty for finishing 15 minutes late.  They were given sufficient warnings during the round and we were doing our best to help them play faster by spotting shots for them.  On one hole one of the players hit his ball into some trees and the others three were in the fairway.  While I and others help the player in the trees find his ball the other three players just stood at their balls in the fairway even though the green was open for them to hit.  They did nothing to help the other guy find his ball nor did they play ready golf to help their group get back into position.

The other time a group with a notorious slow player was behind and were warned.  The other players in the group requested that their group be put on the clock (which was their right under the policy).  Sure enough the slow player took 60 seconds to hit a shot when the limit was 40 and he was given a warning that he would be penalized if the group didn't catch up and he got another bad time, every other player took no more then 30 seconds every time they were timed.  The group did not catch up and the slow player once again took 60 seconds several holes later and was assessed a 1 shot penalty.

The next year everyone was very aware of their pace of play, especially when they saw me near their group, and no one has been penalized since.  The moral of the story is slow play policies have no effect unless they are enforced and I applaud the LPGA for enforcing theirs. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by RemyM 

... Sure enough the slow player took 60 seconds to hit a shot when the limit was 40 and ...

When did you start your 60 second clock? Is that stated clearly in your slow play rule?

Quote:

Originally Posted by rustyredcab 

When did you start your 60 second clock? Is that stated clearly in your slow play rule?

I used this:

http://csgalinks.org/images/uploads/misc/policies/Pace_of_Play_Policy.pdf

Both of his bad times were on putts when he spend time looking at the putt from both sides of the hole.

Quote:

Originally Posted by x129 
 

Of course you have read a thread about the issue and that video had commentary about the slow play along with a clock.

Nope, I had heard about the penalty and saw the replay of her shots on the hole with no clock.  She played like she was unaware she was on the clock.  If you are on your time par then you can play like that but when you've been informed you are behind and subject to timing most people pick up their pace, she did not.

A few days ago when I was reading the box scores, I came across a baseball game that took 3:21 to play, nine innings, and the final score was 2-1. I wonder if there was anybody left in the stands to see the final out. In 1951, when records started being kept, the average time for a baseball game was 2:23 and 166 games in both major leagues combined were played in less than two hours. And you know? Somehow the games all got played, one team won and the other team lost, and at the end of the season they played a World Series.

I don't know if golf has gotten any slower than it was sixty years ago, but it can't be any faster. It all gets down to how you use your mind. The extra time these baseball players take and these golfers take isn't doing anything to help them be better prepared than if they just got on with it. Players and their caddies will take all the time the are given. It's not a mental thing with most slowpokes, as with Na and Crane. From what I hear about the LPGA, when the turtles are asked to shift it, they do, because they can, and they are no worse off for it. Too bad for Pressel, but those were the rules/policies. 

The one thing that does bother me about this affair is what someone posted earlier. What if Munoz had been the slowpoke on this hole? What kind of penalty could she have been handed, since it was match play and she had already lost the hole? That's where the inequity lies.

I think the reason for 100+ (and counting) posts in the thread is the lack of clarity & enforcement of the rule. When the rule uses (as quoted earlier in this thread) the phrase 'at the official's discretion', it makes it subjective. We can post until we're blue in the face that 60 seconds is 60 seconds, but clearly, that's not enforced uniformly (and no, iacas, I cannot prove that - it's just common sense. Not every player taking more than 60 seconds is penalized - Kevin Na would have 10 shots added to his score if so).

Compare & contrast to Dustin Johnson in the 2010 PGA, when he grounded his club. That was clear-cut with video proof - he grounded his club in a hazard. I would imagine there wasn't too much debate about that. But the slow play rule is just too damn discretionary in its wording & subjective in its enforcement.

If we can agree on that (we won't but a guy can dream), then it comes down to when to enforce it. And I will contend that on the back nine of a semifinal match-play match, where only one of the players gets gigged & it costs her 2 holes & as a result she goes on the lose the match was a horrible time to decide to enforce it. At least in stroke play the rest of the field benefits from Pressel's gaffe - in match play it benefitted only her opponent.

I'm not saying slow play isn't an issue. And I'm not saying something shouldn't be done about it. But the way the rule is presently written is terrible. It results in these kinds of 'grey area' debates.

Quote:

Originally Posted by x129 

You see guys back away all the time when the wind comes up and walk the 10 yards up a hill so that they can see the green where they are going to land the ball.

 

 

 

 

This is why I don't understand why more players on the PGA tour aren't considered slow players.  Maybe it's simply the way the cameras only follow certain players for lengthy periods of time, and for others they only show their good shots, starting from the moment they are addressing the ball.  Whatever it is, whenever you see Phil or Tiger (who likely get the most coverage) it seems like they are taking 5 minutes to hit their shot.  How many times have we seen Phil and Bones deliberate for 1 full minute over an iron shot?  I just don't see how more PGA tour players don't violate slow play policy.  I'm guessing their other shots are relatively quick, or it's simply not enforced.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by newtogolf 

Munoz herself said she was playing just as slow as Pressel why weren't they both penalized? 

That part is simple though: they were on the clock on a specific hole, and on that hole Pressel was the slow one.  That's simply the way the rule works.  I'm actually okay with that since they are warned ahead of time, and after reading Foltz' take, it seems like she showed some amount of disregard or entitlement in spite of the warning...possibly thinking that since Munoz was the slower of the two by her estimation, that she wouldn't be penalized before Munoz was.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mvmac 

Here's Jerry Folt'z take

 

Thanks.  I think that is the most insight we have on this issue so far.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chas 

RemyM: exactly. My guessing is that she won't make that mistake again.

Then the game and Tour is probably better off for this incident.  It's unfortunate, but often times people only learn the hard way, and it takes a high profile case to get the message across.

Brandon