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post #37 of 148
Optimism is optimism lol
post #38 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post

 

Evolution has nothing to do with it. I'm plenty well evolved. I realize there are some bad people out there, particularly in certain parts of town(s). I will protect my family and myself. What does any of that have to do with evolving? There are bad people out there. Make them "evolve" so they're not "bad" and there's literally zero threat to me or my family and I will melt my guns down.

 

 

Uhm, okay. Is that an "evolved" line of logic?

 

I might choose to be dead rather than a braindead person, but dead versus having a chance to defend myself knowing the laws of the land? It's not even close.

It has everything to do with it... The statement was not centered around you as an individual but human race as a whole. Unfortunately we all can't base our choice on how evolved YOU are. Make them "evolve"?? Not sure where you are going with that??

 

No my choice is not based on evolving...it's just my choice. Period. You can choose to defend yourself and your family and I applaud your choice. But you kid yourself if you think you know how an action you take in a moment of panic to defend you and yours is going to play out in court.

post #39 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by MMiller View Post

It has everything to do with it... The statement was not centered around you as an individual but human race as a whole. Unfortunately we all can't base our choice on how evolved YOU are. Make them "evolve"?? Not sure where you are going with that??

 

It reads as if you need to get off of some sort of evolutionary high horse. You're no more evolved than anyone else.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MMiller View Post

But you kid yourself if you think you know how an action you take in a moment of panic to defend you and yours is going to play out in court.

 

I'm not kidding myself. I'm just saying that I'd rather take my chances than be dead.

 

I think you're in a very small minority if you want to take "dead" over "faces a trial."

post #40 of 148

I have no idea as to the politics of the Violence Policy Center, but here we go:

 

 

April 23, 2012

 

Washington, DC—States with low gun ownership rates and strong gun laws have the lowest rates of gun death according to a new analysis by the Violence Policy Center (VPC) of 2009 national data (the most recent available) from the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’s National Center for Injury Prevention and Control.

The analysis reveals that the five states with the lowest per capita gun death rates were Massachusetts, Hawaii, New Jersey, New York, and Connecticut. Each of these states had a per capita gun death rate far below the national per capita gun death rate of 10.19 per 100,000 for 2009. Each state has strong gun laws and low gun ownership rates. By contrast, states with weak gun laws and higher rates of gun ownership had far higher rates of firearm-related death. Ranking first in the nation for gun death was Louisiana, followed by Wyoming, Alabama, Montana, and Mississippi. (See rankings below for bottom and top five states. Seehttp://www.vpc.org/fadeathchart12.htm for a ranking of all 50 states.)

VPC Legislative Director Kristen Rand states, “Massachusetts’ low gun death rate stands as proof of how long-term, comprehensive firearms regulation can increase public safety and protect communities and families.”

 

States with the Five LOWEST Per Capita Gun Death Rates

 

Massachusetts--Rank: 50; Household Gun Ownership: 12.8 percent; Gun Death Rate: 3.14 per 100,000.

Hawaii--Rank: 49; Household Gun Ownership: 9.7 percent; Gun Death Rate: 3.63 per 100,000.

New Jersey--Rank: 48; Household Gun Ownership: 11.3 percent; Gun Death Rate: 4.72 per 100,000.

New York--Rank: 47; Household Gun Ownership: 18.1 percent; Gun Death Rate: 4.90 per 100,000.

Connecticut--Rank: 46; Household Gun Ownership: 16.2 percent; Gun Death Rate: 4.92 per 100,000.


States with the Five HIGHEST Per Capita Gun Death Rates

 

Louisiana--Rank: 1; Household Gun Ownership: 45.6 percent; Gun Death Rate: 18.03 per 100,000.

Wyoming--Rank: 2; Household Gun Ownership: 62.8 percent; Gun Death Rate: 17.64 per 100,000.

Alabama--Rank: 3; Household Gun Ownership: 57.2 percent; Gun Death Rate: 17.63 per 100,000.

Montana--Rank: 4; Household Gun Ownership: 61.4 percent; Gun Death Rate: 17.03 per 100,000.

Mississippi--Rank: 5; Household Gun Ownership: 54.3 percent; Gun Death Rate: 16.50 per 100,000.

 

 

http://www.vpc.org/press/1204death.htm

post #41 of 148
Imagine that...an anti-gun group came up with some statistics saying that gun ownership is bad. Do you believe everything you read? If so I have a putter I will sell you that will allow you to make every putt. Send me $1000.
Edited by NM Golf - 5/24/12 at 1:30am
post #42 of 148

Introducing new gun laws where no one can carry a gun would not work in America, simply most law abiding citizens would be gunless and criminals would still own their guns. As Iacas said, there are many poor, violence ridden areas in major American cities where gun laws wouldn't make a squat of difference to lowering deaths, probably increasing them significantly. However, things may have been much different if strict gun control began from hundreds of years ago, like when many other countries began regulating guns. I will say however, that I prefer to live where I live, a country where gun licenses are hard to obtain and background checks have to be done in order to obtain a firearm. A "genuine reason" must also be given. Even then, I believe there are many categories with most higher powered guns over basic rifles can only be obtained by target shooters and collectors must have them rendered inoperable.

 

Overall though, it's not my country and I won't tell a U.S. citizen how to run theirs.

post #43 of 148

From Wikipedia:

 

The Violence Policy Center (VPC) is a national 501(c)(3) corporation and government lobbyist working to prohibit firearm and archery ownership in the United States, especially in relation to gun politics.

 

 

I guess it's not surprising given the skewed statistics quoted.  Some observations I would have about the "honesty" of the VPC statistics:

1)The states with low gun ownership are very high density, the high gun ownership states have relatively low density.

2)How did they determine the illegal gun ownership in each state, or did they just go with legally registered weapons?

3)The states listed with high gun ownership have a very large hunting population for the given population. Probably not that high a percentage of hunters in Honolulu, Boston or Jersey City.

4)What is the breakdown of the types of deaths?  Is suicide included? How many of the deaths were family-related, or where the victim knew the attacker? How many were hunting accidents? This would give a much clearer picture than the one-sided image VPC is trying to paint.

post #44 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by NM Golf View Post

Imagine that...an anti-gun group came up with some statistics saying that gun ownership is bad. Do you believe everything you read? If so I have a putter I will sell you that allow you to make every putt. Send me $1000.

And I'm sure the there are plenty of people who read every pronouncement of the NRA as if the hand of God wrote it on tablets.

 

Keep that putter - you need it.

post #45 of 148

Yeah George Zimmerman sure went out of his way to avoid a conflict.  Maybe if he didn't have a gun to give him confidence, he doesn't pick a fight that leads to person ending up dead. I am fine with you owning a gun. But lets not pretend everyone reacts the same way. Maybe only 1% turn into Dirty Harry when they carry, but 1% of 300 million is a lot of people.  

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by inthehole View Post

I carry, and I can tell you it makes a person become more in tune with avoidance techniques.      I think far more about not going places and avoiding potentially unsafe situations, so as to not ever have to use it.     But, there are alot of thugs and gangs even in PA, and it does give me piece of mind when I'm out with my family.      It's nice to have the option to not be a victim of someone who places absolutely no value on your or your wife's life ...

post #46 of 148
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by x129 View Post

Yeah George Zimmerman sure went out of his way to avoid a conflict.  Maybe if he didn't have a gun to give him confidence, he doesn't pick a fight that leads to person ending up dead. I am fine with you owning a gun. But lets not pretend everyone reacts the same way. Maybe only 1% turn into Dirty Harry when they carry, but 1% of 300 million is a lot of people.  

 

 

I guarantee you it's very very much less than 1%. There are millions of gun owners in this country alone who have gone another day of doing absolutely nothing wrong. If we're going to start taking away people's right to carry (yes it is a right) then I think we should be disarming police as well. There are plenty of stories about them wrongfully using firearms. 

post #47 of 148

I wonder about the situations requiring you to bring your gun out.  The only times I can see it is if some one is breaking into your property and you need to protect your family or some one has a knife and you bring out the gun.  The other situations that arise in my head would make it a bad idea for you to bring a gun out that you are carrying.  You live in a bad neighborhood and are sketched out by the gangs, so you carry in case something happens.  Most likely if something happens and you cooperate, you won't be killed.  But bring a gun out instead, in a gang neighborhood? Tell me how that goes down...  Other situations are similar, some one brings a gun out threatening you.  You think he'll be jolly letting you bring yours out?  Sure, if the person threatening you doesn't have a clear weapon (gun that is), yes carrying will protect you.  But in a situation where the other person does have the gun, what would you do?  Risk going for yours or not?

post #48 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Desmond View Post

And I'm sure the there are plenty of people who read every pronouncement of the NRA as if the hand of God wrote it on tablets.

 

Keep that putter - you need it.

You do realize you have a tendency to come across a little Holier than Thou?

 

Like I said before I do not have any interest in trying to convince people either way as for as guns go. What I don't like though is when someone like yourself starts regurgitating stats that have obviously been cooked up by the anti-gun establishment and starts passing them off as fact. Hopefully you realize that statistics can be made to say just about anything you want them to. For every ridiculous stat you can find by these yahoos I can find 3 that dispute it completely. That would go on and on and on.

 

We have a difference of opinion, we will agree to disagree. Its an opinion though please do not try and pass your rhetoric off as fact.

Quote:

Originally Posted by phillyk View Post

the only statistic that I can look at in this is the 168 permits that were revoked due to use in a crime.  I don't care what the % is. Thats 168 people that use this privilege wrongly risking the lives of others.

And how many people lost their driver's license during that time? I would bet my Scotty Cameron that it was a higher percentage. Should we ban cars?

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by phillyk View Post
If your scared of being shot by a gang, DONT LIVE THERE!  

Where is "There"? I guess violence only occurs in bad neighborhoods right?

 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by phillyk View Post
And most of all, you shouldn't be giving them a reason to harm you.  

So all victims of violent crime were giving the perpetrators a reason to harm them? You are probably the same guy that thinks if a girl wears a short miniskirt that she is asking to get raped.

 

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by phillyk View Post

Why go around and say hey I have a carrying permit buddy, don't mess with me.  I think that would just make it worse. 

This shows how ignorant you are about this entire argument. Its a concealed carry permit, the whole reason you have one is so people don't know you are carrying a gun! Anyone who announces they are carrying a gun to another person is a total idiot.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by phillyk View Post

Ignore people your scared of and go about your day as if you didn't know them.

 

Well Hallelujah!  phillyk has found the answer to staying safe in today's society! All we have to do is ignore and pretend we don't know the guy robbing, stabbing and/or shooting us and he will certainly go away! Geez, why didn't I think of that. And to think all this time I have been carrying this heavy gun around!?

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by carpediem4300 View Post

Optimism is optimism lol

No some optimism is just denial. Denial can get you dead.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas View Post
I think you're in a very small minority if you want to take "dead" over "faces a trial."

I am with you on this one Erik, pretty much anything beats dead. Plus, most shootings by CCW permit holders don't go to criminal trial, although you will probably be sued by the family of the asshat you shot.

post #49 of 148
Quote:

No some optimism is just denial. Denial can get you dead.

What?!?!?!

 

optimism wont get you dead, stupidity gets you dead,.....im optimistic that perhaps one day the streets will be safe, by whatever means that be, no guns, more police, doesnt really matter,....maybe not my lifetime,....but im optomistic it will happen

 

That doesnt mean im going to die, im fully aware of the dangers of everyday life....

 

ITs odd, im very anti-gun, but very pro death penalty,...maybe im weird, i dunno

 

Anywho, a question to the gun owners, what type of ammo do you pack? i dont know alot about ammo apart from there are different calibers and some are hollowpoint and some arent,......i know a hollow point mushrooms on impact and rattles around a bit causing serious damage,...and others dont i suppose -------I only ask as watching the trial of anders breivik and hearing how several of the survivors where shot multiple times in the chest/face/legs etc,....just curious 

post #50 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Desmond View Post

And I'm sure the there are plenty of people who read every pronouncement of the NRA as if the hand of God wrote it on tablets.

 

Keep that putter - you need it.

Quote: NM Golf

 

You do realize you have a tendency to come across a little Holier than Thou?

 

Like I said before I do not have any interest in trying to convince people either way as for as guns go. What I don't like though is when someone like yourself starts regurgitating stats that have obviously been cooked up by the anti-gun establishment and starts passing them off as fact. Hopefully you realize that statistics can be made to say just about anything you want them to. For every ridiculous stat you can find by these yahoos I can find 3 that dispute it completely. That would go on and on and on.

 

We have a difference of opinion, we will agree to disagree. Its an opinion though please do not try and pass your rhetoric off as fact.

 

______

 

 

Do you realize that your statement makes little sense as it pertains to my quote of an article and related sentence?

 

 

Before the article was quoted, I stated that I did not know the political leanings of the Violence Policy Center. I made no common about the stats - just listed if for discussion. So who is jumping the gun? And just because the VPC is anti-gun does not mean the stats are "obviously cooked up."

 

You say we have a difference of opinion when I did not voice an opinion.

 

If anyone is holier than thou, it is thou. Just because someone posts stats that are against your position without comments does not mean there is disagreement. It just means stats are posted for discussion. You assume too much.

 

But look at the stats that might not be cooked up. Forget the ranking of gun laws. Just look at per capita gun death rates. There seems to be a direct correlation between gun ownership and gun deaths.

 

As I stated previously, if you want to own a gun and carry it, cut out all the loopholes wherein background checks are eliminated, pay for the background check and pay for the administration of these gun laws at a reasonable rate. IMHO, it should be like a driver's license wherein the background checks are updated every 6 years or so. Hey, they may do this already. I don't know since I have not looked into the matter yet, although with the number of people packing in Texas, I may obtain a license to carry.

 

 

States with the Five LOWEST Per Capita Gun Death Rates

 

Massachusetts--Household Gun Ownership: 12.8 percent; Gun Death Rate: 3.14 per 100,000.

Hawaii--Household Gun Ownership: 9.7 percent; Gun Death Rate: 3.63 per 100,000.

New Jersey Household Gun Ownership: 11.3 percent; Gun Death Rate: 4.72 per 100,000.

New York-- Household Gun Ownership: 18.1 percent; Gun Death Rate: 4.90 per 100,000.

Connecticut-- Household Gun Ownership: 16.2 percent; Gun Death Rate: 4.92 per 100,000.


States with the Five HIGHEST Per Capita Gun Death Rates

 

Louisiana--Household Gun Ownership: 45.6 percent; Gun Death Rate: 18.03 per 100,000.

Wyoming-- Household Gun Ownership: 62.8 percent; Gun Death Rate: 17.64 per 100,000.

Alabama--Household Gun Ownership: 57.2 percent; Gun Death Rate: 17.63 per 100,000.

Montana-- Household Gun Ownership: 61.4 percent; Gun Death Rate: 17.03 per 100,000.

Mississippi--Household Gun Ownership: 54.3 percent; Gun Death Rate: 16.50 per 100,000.

post #51 of 148

A friend of mine shot and killed a guy who was invading his home back in the early 80s or so. He'd committed some burglaries around the town my friend lived in. It was just he and his wife at the time, but he shot him once and that was enough. He tells me not a day goes by he doesn't think about the guy he killed, and he feels sad, but he also says not once has he ever regretted doing it and he'd do it again just as quick if someone else threatened his wife or himself or his kids or grandkids.

Criminals have guns. Until they don't have them anymore, and so long as they bring the gun fights to the average guy, the average guy would be well advised not to bring a knife to a gun fight (or a six-iron or whatever else you grab because you don't have a gun).

 


Quote:
Originally Posted by phillyk View Post

The other situations that arise in my head would make it a bad idea for you to bring a gun out that you are carrying. You live in a bad neighborhood and are sketched out by the gangs, so you carry in case something happens. Most likely if something happens and you cooperate, you won't be killed.  But bring a gun out instead, in a gang neighborhood? Tell me how that goes down...

 

Actually, victims of violent crimes are more likely to escape death or serious injury when they're carrying versus not.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by carpediem4300 View Post

optimism wont get you dead, stupidity gets you dead,.....im optimistic that perhaps one day the streets will be safe, by whatever means that be, no guns, more police, doesnt really matter,....maybe not my lifetime,....but im optomistic it will happen

 

There's optimism and then there's just fairy tale never-never-land lalala dreaming. It's not going to happen.

post #52 of 148

And every year ~12k gun owners kill someone else. Is that a small percentage? Sure but that is still a lot of people.  It may or may not be a right. I have read enough articles on both sides to say it isn't clear what the heck the founding fathers ment much less what they would want in todays world. As far as the police with guns, I am not sure what your point is. That having a bunch of armed guys walking around causes innocent people to get shot (it happens) or it cause criminals to get shot (happens a bit also). No one can tell us how many of murders would be avoid if people didn't have easy access to guns. No one can say how many crimes are prevented (or even just shifted to someone else) by guns. 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by xmanhockey7 View Post

I guarantee you it's very very much less than 1%. There are millions of gun owners in this country alone who have gone another day of doing absolutely nothing wrong. If we're going to start taking away people's right to carry (yes it is a right) then I think we should be disarming police as well. There are plenty of stories about them wrongfully using firearms. 

post #53 of 148

if a person cannot dream of a never never laalala land then surely they are stuck in the repetative routine of never thinking about better things, and jsut accepting the way things are and thats how they are staying? Imagine if martin luther king thought that,.......and never bothered lobbying for anti-racism,..................and just accepted that blacks would always be second class citizens,..........people probably told him his optimism was fairy tale,.....turned out better than most thought I appreciate that it may never happen, but to ignore change, or the chance of change is an ignorance to ones self belief,....anything can change if its for the good

post #54 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post

You're no more evolved than anyone else.

That is certainly correct...no more evolved. I think you missed my original point. I support your right and choice to own and carry firearms. To try and protect you and yours in this somewhat barbaric society we live in. I still own many guns and have carried them in the past. I just don't choose to do so presently. That's all that was being said in the original post. No right or wrong choice but a choice all the same.
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