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Got fitted...Lie angle...swing speed...I'm confused - Page 2

post #19 of 46
I get what your saying and it makes sense but to me at the very least the proper length is a huge deal. As a been o see plus and minuses to both.
post #20 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by UFGators View Post

...  If you're anywhere near a bogey golfer, you have no business being fit, except knowing which shaft flex is most appropriate. To adjust a lie angle for someone who does not have a consistent swing is a complete mistake.  I have customers that come in and ask for a fitting because the Golf Channel said it was important, but they have absolutely no idea what it concerns.  These types of customers cannot hit the ball in the same spot consistently.  The face tape and lie angle tape is scattered with black marks after just 5 hits, with some balls slicing, hooking, and others chunked.  Then they're appalled when I tell them nicely that they should consider lessons before investing in clubs or that they should just get standard clubs. ...

 

Years ago when I was a 15 HDCP, I had problems once the season got going with hooking or pulling iron shots. When I got fitted, I wore a hole in the sole tape about 1/2 inch toward the heel. The clubsmith then built me irons with a flatter lie that really straightened out my shots.

 

So, a person with a consistent swing can benefit from clubfitting even if they're not breaking 90 every time.

 

But you're right, if a person hits five shots and delivers every trajectory imaginable, they do need lessons first.

 

But, if they have the wrong shaft flex and the shafts are way too long or too short ("...I got a good deal on eBay..."), tweaks here can pave the way for success in lessons.

post #21 of 46

I will say a few random things related to this topic. Take them for what they're worth (and take them to mean what you'd like):

  • I can break par with just about any reasonable set of clubs, including my wife's set of clubs, from 6500 yards.
  • We fit a guy +2° in his wedges who was having trouble pulling shots. His "new" set of $1000 irons were fit 3° flat not because he swung flat, but because he tended to pull shots slightly. A 30-minute lesson fixed that, so now he's got irons that are way too flat for him.
  • Everyone who plays golf even somewhat frequently has a swing that's remarkably similar. Their low point control might vary 18 inches from one swing to the next, but the swings themselves are incredibly similar.
  • I used to buy into what an old fitter told me once: that he rarely ever had to change anyone's fitting even over 20 years. I now realize that it was probably more to the fact that the bullet point above was true, as well as another point being true: most golfers don't take lessons from good instructors and just reach a moderate level and stay there the rest of their lives.
  • Fitting matters more to low handicappers, but in general, the tools any skilled person uses matter more to them than the unskilled person, but that doesn't mean an unskilled person should use a tool that's bordering on "flat out wrong" for their game, either.
post #22 of 46

There's a difference between what passes for fitting at big box stores and a real fitting.  Big box stores see most people bring their B-game swings, hit shots into a net and pick the one out of 3 shafts that "fits" the swing speed.  Tour players get fit on the range using their playing ball and a Trackman with a number of shaft and head options.  They can usually tell whether something is better, longer, tighter, more spinny, less spinny, has more roll-out, etc. just by the ball flight.  It only takes a few swings because their launch conditions are so consistent.

 

Having said that, I think there is a place for a cheap alternative to that for most handicap golfers where you have 3 selections or so, and have a high schooler put you in the right ballpark.  "Fit" is not the word that should be used for that, IMO.  It implies something exacting, which big-box stores aren't equipped to provide.

 

I'd suggest for new golfers just grab a few irons from standard to +-2" in length.  Take your address position and have a qualified pro look and see if you are too upright, too bent over, comfortable that way, etc.  Then just add some upright for longer clubs or flatter for shorter clubs and find something comfortable.  That way you can be in the ballpark and reasonably certain that a drastically off lie and length aren't affecting your ability to absorb lesson material.  Then just spend time working on your swing.

post #23 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by bunkerputt View Post

I'd suggest for new golfers just grab a few irons from standard to +-2" in length.  Take your address position and have a qualified pro look and see if you are too upright, too bent over, comfortable that way, etc.  Then just add some upright for longer clubs or flatter for shorter clubs and find something comfortable.  That way you can be in the ballpark and reasonably certain that a drastically off lie and length aren't affecting your ability to absorb lesson material.  Then just spend time working on your swing.

 

Okay, except that address is hardly the position from which to judge that sort of stuff. If that were the case virtually everyone would be fit with clubs that are too flat.

post #24 of 46

I should have specified, if you're abnormally tall or short, there is a viable reason to adjust the length of your clubs accordingly, no matter the inconsistency.  I'm referring to the customers (the inconsistent ones) that have got in their head that swing weight is of the utmost importance , even to the point of wanting to know what a new grip on their driver or irons will do to that swing weight.  Also, other golfers that come into the store have been swinging standard clubs all of their life, therefore any adjustments are to the lie angle are not necessary because they have become accustomed to standard clubs.  But, having said this, I played all through high school with standard clubs and was a plus handicap golfer in my junior and senior years.  A fitting was not talked about in golf as much 5 to 6 years ago, now people are blaming kick-points and torque on their troubles, when their main focus should be receiving instructions as to how they should swing the club.  I can't give a fitting to someone who looks as though they are trying to kill snakes, chopping at the ball (no offence to anyone, really).  My parents treated me as if I was going to be the next golf superstar, so I had a club in my hand at 3 and lessons from age 5 on and a fitting from my pro was never discussed.  I'm not on the amateur tour or a pro of some sort (not that I could have been) because I got burnt out on the sport and had no desire to play in college; this had nothing to do with a fitting either.  Having your lie angle adjusted should be done only if you develop consistency and that is done through lessons and developing a swing that you plan to have for years to come.  If you're pushing the ball and you're 5'6, bending them up is only going to worsen the problem because now you'll be digging the heel.  Really though, in all honesty, I'm not trying to offend anyone in any manner.  I just wanted to throw my opinion in on the matter because this has been frustrating me as of late. 

post #25 of 46
If you only took 40 swings I wouldn't trust the guy, period. BUT, I'm not into rocket science either.
post #26 of 46

I am a big fan of a static fitting for length and lie -- done by the pro who is teaching you your swing. As said in this thread, if you have clubs that are too flat or too upright, you will compensate your setup and/or swing and adjust.

 

Unless your swing is the swing you know to be correct (or the one you plan to live with forever), get fitted for length and lie based on your body and your desired swing -- not your current swing.

 

Shaft flex can be determined by a dynamic fitting (even for 18 handicap golfers) but know that it may change as your technique changes.

post #27 of 46

I got fit for my current irons at golf galaxy.  I would never do that again.

post #28 of 46

I do not believe in this type of retail club fitting because I think that the lie angle and swing speed are variable.  The lie angle is highly influenced by the address position which is often poor, and easily correctable.  An amateur hunched over the ball could buy a special set of irons 2 degrees flat, or have a pro walk by and say "UR DOING IT WRONG."  The sad fact is that a poor posture will hit the ball better with clubs fitted to the poor posture, but not as good as if they kept their clubs and fixed their posture. 

 

That said I would recommend that people measure themselves in a basic manner a la the Ping website.  It asks for your height and some simple measurements so that your clubs will have the right length and grip size.  Ultimately I expect clubs to be like socks and hats where "one size fits most" but if you are two standard deviations from normal height you'll need something special to play your best.  The problem for someone 6'5" playing a standard set would be that they make poor swing changes to adjust to ill-fitting clubs, like getting fat to grow into a boxy suit.

 

The other aspect of this is that it is hard to define what the standard set is at this point, so a club buyer should get the specs for the set to better comprehend what they're doing.  I would not just go by feel and guesswork given the wide variety of sets at retail these days.  Look at the length, lie, loft, and maybe even bounce and swingweight written down on paper, and if it isn't available don't buy the set.

post #29 of 46

Getting fit for clubs appears to be the new marketing gimmick for golf equipment manufacturers and golf stores.  What UFGators said isn't going to be popular or well received but it's consistent with what many have told me when it comes to club fitting for casual golfers with double digit handicaps.  Erik hit many of the points I've been told by fitters and club pro's that I've become friends with.  They all suggest a static fitting and swing speed analysis but beyond that suggest waiting until handicap is single digits for fine tuning clubs unless there is a specific consistent problem they are trying to overcome. 

post #30 of 46

Being 5'5" tall, even when I was a 36 handicap, a static fitting based on my basic body measurements did wonders for my game.  Standard clubs were just too long and upright for me to make solid contact with my irons.  I got static fitted and played down to 18 like that.  When I bought my Mizunos, I was actually fit for them (still an 18 handicap) and the static measurements were actually fairly close, there was a slight lie angle adjustment.  Now that I'm striking my irons relatively consistently and they aren't the weak point in my game, I went back and had them checked out, and they were still good.  The only change was the the soft forgings had become more upright over the past couple of years and didn't match the specs they were originally bent to anymore. 

 

So from a hacker to a 12 h.c. I had very minimal changes to lie angle and no change to length.  If I had the mentality that club fitting is just a marketing scam and I should wait until I improved, I would still be playing irons that were too long and upright for me and hitting horrible fat shots and hooks still.  Having clubs that were at least static fitted made a big difference in my progress. 

 

It probably wouldn't help someone who is average height as much as people who are shorter or taller than normal.  Those should at least have a static fitting, even if you're just learning.

post #31 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullitt5339 View Post

Being 5'5" tall, even when I was a 36 handicap, a static fitting based on my basic body measurements did wonders for my game.  Standard clubs were just too long and upright for me to make solid contact with my irons.  I got static fitted and played down to 18 like that.  When I bought my Mizunos, I was actually fit for them (still an 18 handicap) and the static measurements were actually fairly close, there was a slight lie angle adjustment.  Now that I'm striking my irons relatively consistently and they aren't the weak point in my game, I went back and had them checked out, and they were still good.  The only change was the the soft forgings had become more upright over the past couple of years and didn't match the specs they were originally bent to anymore. 

 

So from a hacker to a 12 h.c. I had very minimal changes to lie angle and no change to length.  If I had the mentality that club fitting is just a marketing scam and I should wait until I improved, I would still be playing irons that were too long and upright for me and hitting horrible fat shots and hooks still.  Having clubs that were at least static fitted made a big difference in my progress. 

 

It probably wouldn't help someone who is average height as much as people who are shorter or taller than normal.  Those should at least have a static fitting, even if you're just learning.

I have to agree with Bullitt5339, being 5'2", how in the world could you tell me a club fitting could not help my game??  I play hockey and I have never not cut down my hockey stick!  If you are not in the standard range, a club fitting just makes sense!

post #32 of 46

I hear FUGators sentiment, sometimes it's futile to try and fit a person that has yet to hammer out a singular swing.  On the other hand, you don't want to turn someone away from the game.  At the end of the day, Club Fitters should have a pretty good idea what a person needs before they are loose on the Trackman.  Asking questions like "How many rounds do you play a month?" and "What's your typical miss?" are essential to open a fitting session.  If you hear answers similar to "I'm going out this Saturday with my boss and I need to make some birdies!"  or "I am in sales and we have a scramble this Monday, Ive never played before" you know what you have right there...   Ansr Forged 3-P red dot, True Temper Tour Issue, hard stepped once.  a3_biggrin.gif

 

In all seriousness, you will at least be able to get some sort of idea what the poor bloke needs in terms of head and shaft composition.  That will satisfy most folks.

post #33 of 46

I really think that the static fitting will help people who aren't "normal" the most, even at the higher handicaps. If your 6'6" or 5'1", off the shelf clubs aren't going to fit you at all. And you will have to compensate for them in your swing, instead of being able to make a good swing. Not sure how much it would help an "average sized" person with a higher handicap.

 

I also think that anyone can benefit from finding out there swing speed, so they can see what shafts they should use, and see what grip size they need. Now most big box stores don't spend enough time with you to really fit you properly, or for you to even warm up for that matter.

 

I got fitted by a local club builder that built my last set for me. He had me go around the corner to a driving range, that worked with him and hit a couple buckets of balls. (they were free) And then I came back once I was warmed up. Even then, we spent about 2 hours fitting me. A lot of that time was him giving me a sudo lesson, and trying to fix things in my swing before fitting. We finally settled on +1" in length, stiff shafts, and midsized grips. I ordered my Callaways that way, and to me it seems like it makes a big difference. I am able to swing better due to standing upright, and seem to hit the ball cleaner now. I am going to be getting some lessons from him now. He offered me 6 free lessons when I bought my clubs from him. One thing he had that I really liked was, he had 50 or so clubs all with the same heads, but different flexes, lie angles, and lengths. So when he did the measurements, he was able to give me a club that fit what he measured and I could hit it several times to try it out.

 

I really think it boils down to what you feel comfortable with. If you feel fine with off the shelf clubs, then maybe stick with them till your handicap drops. If something doesn't feel right, get some lessons, and then see about getting fitted. It was an Instructor that told me I should get fitted during a lesson. he noticed I was bending over to far, and said it was holding back my swing. My swing speed did go up with the fitted clubs. Only 8mph, but that was enough to make a difference to me.

 

I will also add that I was fitted at Golfsmith, and they gave me completely different results. (other than the shaft flex) Not to say these guys don't know what they are doing, but they really can't spend the time with you that they should.

post #34 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by rustyredcab View Post

I am a big fan of a static fitting for length and lie -- done by the pro who is teaching you your swing. As said in this thread, if you have clubs that are too flat or too upright, you will compensate your setup and/or swing and adjust.

Unless your swing is the swing you know to be correct (or the one you plan to live with forever), get fitted for length and lie based on your body and your desired swing -- not your current swing.

Shaft flex can be determined by a dynamic fitting (even for 18 handicap golfers) but know that it may change as your technique changes.

I'm new to the forum and started a new topic asking a question about this. Looks like I should ave searched first!!! My bad. Anyway, I'm likely one of the hacks that UFGators is talking about. Using the tape and hitting off boards, I was "fit" to I.5 flat (Ping purple dot). But, I'm 5'9" and using Ping's static fit on its website I measure at 1.5 upright (yellow dot). I have lessons starting in June but, if I'm going to adjust my lie, I'd like to do it before lessons. Do I stick with the purple dot, as measured by my totally inconsistent and crappy swing, do I get them adjusted to yellow dot since fixing my swing with lessons is "easier" based on my static fit measurements, or do I adjust to black dot since I'm a beginner?
post #35 of 46

For BrokeLoser:

 

ladders11 already said it, but I'd like to repeat the suggestion; go to the Ping web site and use their online fitting tool.  You plug in some key measurements and it will make recommendations based on your physical characteristics. They note that a fitter may alter this based on your swing.  I would speculate (perhaps someone knowledgeable could confirm) that if your swing dictates a different lie angle than the static fitting recommends, and you then improve your swing technique with some good instruction, your fitting needs would tend to change in the direction of the static fitting? 

 

My point is, if you do that static fitting and it comes back confirming Yellow Dot / Green Dot, smile and go play golf.  If it doesn't... well then you may want to start asking why.

post #36 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by PirateJim View Post

  I would speculate (perhaps someone knowledgeable could confirm) that if your swing dictates a different lie angle than the static fitting recommends, and you then improve your swing technique with some good instruction, your fitting needs would tend to change in the direction of the static fitting? 

Thank you for putting into words much better than I have been able to. This is exactly my question.  Is it true that a beginner improving his/her swing through instruction will "tend to change in the direction of static fitting?"

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