Welcome to the wonderful world of club fitting.
Got fitted...Lie angle...swing speed...I'm confused - Page 3
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Sorry IMO I do not agree with UFGators unless you have never picked up a club. Although I had played for years, never had a club fitting played off the shelf clubs I see a real value to a good set of clubs fit for you. I took a few good years off my swing changed along with being a bit older. I have a very upright stance and was catching the heal, by having the lie adjusted I got rid of that. I would have never known if I did not have a good fitter. Believe me it took three guys before I found the one I really trusted.
My father in law is a very tall guy and even though he sucks they added a little to the length to his shafts and adjusted the lie, these where his first real set of clubs, the first set where from a second hand sporting goods store.
My son even though he is very average in his swing, height, arm Leigh has bigger then average hands they added 3 wraps.
I agree that your swing will change the more you play and take lesions but there is no reason not to get fitted when you are ready to buy new clubs. If you need to make adjustments to your clubs after a bit take them in for a tune up.
We all know that there are guys that will go into a fitting expecting a different club, shaft because that is what the pros play but you have to be honest with yourself. But it comes down to a good fitter to point you in a direction on what you need you have to trust them.
Again this is just MO.
In my opinion yes but only if your clubs were fitted for correct impact position of the "improved" swing.
The swing you are trying to learn (close to ball like Jim Furyk or farther from ball like Moe Norman), your height, the distance from your wrist to the floor... determine your correct static length and lie at impact. If your game is good enough to try and hit the ball where you want it to go, you will make adjustments/compensations to your impact position to try and make the ball behave -- go straight.
If your clubs fit the "correct" impact position, the ball will do as you wish when your swing is correct. Your reward for a good swing is a good result. If the ball does not go where you wanted, you will adjust and compensate. Those compensations have a chance to move you to your desired swing.
If your clubs do not fit that static position, the ball will not do as you wish with a correct swing. It may fade/slice or draw/hook more than you wish. You may hit it fat or thin. (As an absurd example to make the point, imagine your clubs were two inches too short. A correct impact position would have you miss the ball entirely.) Most of us will adjust our swings and make compensations in order to hit the ball and try and get the ball to fly straight (even if we don't know we are doing it). Thus, if our clubs do not fit our desired swing, we will change good swings to swings that generate the results we want.
So, IMO, one can play good golf with clubs that do not fit just as one can play great golf with a bad swing. One can not make good swings and play good golf at the same time with clubs that do not fit. In order to give yourself the best chance at progressing to the swing you want, get a static fitting for that swing.
I live in Michigan and went to Carl's Golfland to get fitted for new clubs. I came into some money and thought that that justified buying new clubs. Carl's is one of the top 100 fitters in the US according to Golf Digest. I have been playing inconsistently for several years but have not taken any lessons. I hit a 7 iron about 130 yards and the video wasn't pretty. They suggested as did UFGators, that I take lessons to be more consistent before getting fitted for new clubs. That's what I've done this past winter and I believe they made the correct call.
I just picked up my Ping G25 iron set and got pseudo fitted. I went with an CFS-R shaft, black dot lie, and off the rack at the end of the day. I'm lucky to be average height, at 5'10", and have always felt that anything off the rack feels great and comfortable to hit. I have never been fitted my entire life and my G25 purchase was the first.
I have played since I was 14, competitively in high school, but played on and off since college. Interest level, life and work got too busy and I'd be lucky to get 2-3 rounds of golf in a year. I'm now 37 years old, still in good shape, and my interest in golf is renewed. I was thoroughly embarrassed a month ago when I played for the first time in over 2 years. I lost 8 balls and shot over 100 and basically stopped counting. It was a Johnny Miller course, something no one should play on their first outing in 2+ years, but I basically lost my swing. I was playing with a set of forged Mizuno MX-23, which are considered GI irons, but with my lack of play, they weren't forgiving enough. So the first thing I did to correct this was to sign-up for a series of lessons. I've always had a good looking swing to the naked eye, but to the professional instructor, there were plenty wrong. The facility had cameras that analyzed my swing with data and in slow motion, he was able to point out my problems. He had two simple fixes. First was to adjust my grip, and second is to focus on my swing plane. Once I got those two corrected, I am now more consistent and hitting the ball straighter than ever. With my renewed confidence and performance at the driving range I decided that I should refresh my 5 year old set with something new before heading back out to the course.
So now back on topic around fitting. I went to my local golf shop and had a few irons in mind after reading reviews online. I hit a few of each with a 7 iron and liked the sound and feel of the G25's the most. It felt the most forgiving and trackman indicated the highest consistency amongst all the clubs I tried. Now comes the fitting. Lie angle, length, and grip size was a non-issue. I'm average height with a text book swing, just need to work on impact consistency with practice. So next was swing speed. I was clocked at 93mph with a 7 iron and a distance of 170.2 yards with a +.46 launch direction, so pretty much crushed it dead center. This is on the G25 with CFS-R (regular) flex. I told the fitter, I like it, and he tells me that I should use a stiff flex at that swing speed and distance. So I tried the stiff shaft instead. It felt a little heavier, my swing speed came down a little, and couldn't get the same results without working harder. It felt like I had to work a tad harder but the launch angle was slightly lower by about 1 degree, which is nice. I went back and forth hitting R vs. S and the regular flex felt way better for me. What I realized is that my tempo is more important than my swing speed. I wasn't torquing my club enough for the shaft flex to matter so much. The slightly lighter shaft gave me higher swing speed and a slightly higher launch angle which I don't mind so much. The fitter didn't even tell me this and I simply recalled a discussion I had with my instructor. I basically ignored the fitter, who was leaning me towards stiff, and went with the club that felt better. Luckily, they had one R flex in stock left for me to take home.
The next day, I went out on the course with friends and shot a 79, only my second time out in over 2 years. It was an easier course, but it wasn't because of the new clubs, but the 3 lessons and range practice I had to that point. I'm pretty sure the clubs helped a bit, being more forgiving and the fact that shiny things make me happy, but the lessons were the best investment I've made in the sport.
In summary, you should get a fitting just to be sure. I think if your height and other measurements aren't average, fitting a club will promote better posture and overal swing as you get better. In terms of shaft flex, which is a hot topic everyone likes to argue about, use your judgment and feel for what is better for you. Don't let ego / machismo get in the way thinking that you have to swing fast all the time. At the course, my swings are easier and I'm hitting my 7 iron straight and anywhere between 150-160. According to many charts, stiff flex is still recommended for that kind of distance.
Here is a good video to watch on shaft flex: http://youtu.be/MDaKUHxk0I8 watch his tempo, it's smooth and consistent. If your tempo is fast and jerky, more torque is introduced, and shaft flex become very important.
Tomorrow I'm getting a new driver fitted. Currently hitting an old Ping G5 R-flex and I'm hooking it a lot. Went to the golf shop a few days ago before closing and the fitter said I need to go stiff with an average swing speed of 97mph. I'm going to trust him because I know it's hard for me to make square contact with the ball. I was hitting a couple stiff shaft drivers and I can already tell the difference from trackman's data. With a driver, which is the longest club in your bag, getting it properly fitted for shaft flex is more important imo.
I will say a few random things related to this topic. Take them for what they're worth (and take them to mean what you'd like):
- I can break par with just about any reasonable set of clubs, including my wife's set of clubs, from 6500 yards.
- We fit a guy +2° in his wedges who was having trouble pulling shots. His "new" set of $1000 irons were fit 3° flat not because he swung flat, but because he tended to pull shots slightly. A 30-minute lesson fixed that, so now he's got irons that are way too flat for him.
- Everyone who plays golf even somewhat frequently has a swing that's remarkably similar. Their low point control might vary 18 inches from one swing to the next, but the swings themselves are incredibly similar.
- I used to buy into what an old fitter told me once: that he rarely ever had to change anyone's fitting even over 20 years. I now realize that it was probably more to the fact that the bullet point above was true, as well as another point being true: most golfers don't take lessons from good instructors and just reach a moderate level and stay there the rest of their lives.
- Fitting matters more to low handicappers, but in general, the tools any skilled person uses matter more to them than the unskilled person, but that doesn't mean an unskilled person should use a tool that's bordering on "flat out wrong" for their game, either.
First of all you sir should be on the tour if this is the case and my hat is off to you for being able to break par with just about any reasonable set of clubs. I assume you play by PGA rules strictly?
I believe fitting matters more to high handicappers and here is why. Low handicappers already have a fitted set of clubs. All pros, real-true-pros, have fitted sets and a couple of extra ones sitting in a vault 'just in case' theirs gets lost/stolen. Every year they go back to make adjustments to better their game. For pros it's more mental than reality. Their real improvements come with working with a coach first. He'll find out what they may be doing wrong and then decide if an adjustment is in order. I've seen instructors give the same iron back to a pro and tell him it's been adjusted and to do what we just practiced and you see the difference. The only thing that changed was the pros's mental state and confidence.
High handicappers on the other hand are the ones that buy off the shelf clubs that have the wrong size grip, wrong shaft, wrong style/type of head, wrong lie, wrong clubs in their bag, and wrong length shaft. It's a lose lose from the start. What high handicappers could benefit from is in getting just one club built for them, just one, and then go take some lessons with it from a competent instructor.
Have it, the club, tweaked after feedback from the instructor, and then, and only then, proceed to build a set, one club at a time.
And high handicappers don't need the traditional set of clubs. Their needs can vary greatly. High handicappers don't benefit from multiple wedges, they need one they can use over and over again with success.
Everyone needs a putter.
High handicappers need the lower clubs 6 through 9.
High handicappers don't all need 5 through 3 irons.
Some need hybrids, some need fairway woods, some need a couple of those irons.
Most high handicappers who learn to use a 5 wood near perfectly f or their game can hit it from 160 to 200 by having a swing they have learned to control.
Many high handicappers (and pros) use a fairway wood or hybrids to chip from the deep grass around the green because using a wedge in deep grass is a real surgical shot, even for the pros.
Most high handicappers should not use a driver with loft less than 12 degrees. I teach them to use a 3 wood or even a strong 5 wood till they have found their comfort zone and then to consider buying a driver, but to be very cautious about spending money for no net results. If you can hit a 3 wood 230 down the center of the fairway 10 out of 10 times, does it really benefit you to buy a driver that you end up in the trees 3 out of 10 times, in the deep rough 4 out of 10 times and in the fairway 3 out of ten times, regardless of the distance. The greater the distance the greater the error on a bad shot. You could be in the next fairway over or in the water or out of bounds. Each of these will cost you a stroke.
Golf is an individual game and no two people play the same, plan their shots the same or hit the same. We are all different. There are no cookie cutter approaches that fit all golfers or even the majority of them.
I'm a fitter/builder/repair business owner and I see it all the time.
FORE! Play Golf
I'm new to the forum and started a new topic asking a question about this. Looks like I should ave searched first!!! My bad. Anyway, I'm likely one of the hacks that UFGators is talking about. Using the tape and hitting off boards, I was "fit" to I.5 flat (Ping purple dot). But, I'm 5'9" and using Ping's static fit on its website I measure at 1.5 upright (yellow dot). I have lessons starting in June but, if I'm going to adjust my lie, I'd like to do it before lessons. Do I stick with the purple dot, as measured by my totally inconsistent and crappy swing, do I get them adjusted to yellow dot since fixing my swing with lessons is "easier" based on my static fit measurements, or do I adjust to black dot since I'm a beginner?
Desert, I realize this might be a little late, but if you haven't started your lessons yet and are still undecided about your lie angle situation, I would suggest that you hold off on any adjustments until after you meet with your instructor. He will most likely make some changes in your stance/posture and swing. Then you'll have a better idea which way you need to go. Your instructor will be able to consult with you also on this...it might not be a formal "fitting" or he might not be able to exactly how much your irons need to be adjusted, but he should be able to provide some insight or recommendations.