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Touching line of putt - Page 2

post #19 of 64

Does a laser pointer pen make a 'mark'?  Suppose i ask my caddie to hold the laser pen and direct the shiny dot to point X, a bit over to the right, ah Yes, just perfect. Now i address the ball, look at the mark, say  6 feet away , tell the caddy to shut it off and make my putt. There is no mark, only a spot of light was once on the green. Any ruling? 

post #20 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by joekelly View Post
 

Does a laser pointer pen make a 'mark'?  Suppose i ask my caddie to hold the laser pen and direct the shiny dot to point X, a bit over to the right, ah Yes, just perfect. Now i address the ball, look at the mark, say  6 feet away , tell the caddy to shut it off and make my putt. There is no mark, only a spot of light was once on the green. Any ruling? 

 

If I were your opponent or fellow-competitor, I might be inclined to complain. However, when I got around to searching through the book, I would come across this and wonder if it might not be much different from this Decision:

 

8-2b/1 - Caddie Casts Shadow to Indicate Line for Putting

 

Q.A caddie casts his shadow on the putting green for the purpose of indicating to the player a line for putting. Is this permissible?

A.Yes, but only if the shadow is removed prior to the stroke.

post #21 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by joekelly View Post

Does a laser pointer pen make a 'mark'?  Suppose i ask my caddie to hold the laser pen and direct the shiny dot to point X, a bit over to the right, ah Yes, just perfect. Now i address the ball, look at the mark, say  6 feet away , tell the caddy to shut it off and make my putt. There is no mark, only a spot of light was once on the green. Any ruling? 

Based on the intent of Rule 8-2b, which prohibits touching the putting green when pointing out a line for putting, I would consider it a breach.
Edit: and the Decision posted above shows I could be wrong, but there is still 14-3 (artificial devices, unusual equipment)!
post #22 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogolf View Post


Based on the intent of Rule 8-2b, which prohibits touching the putting green when pointing out a line for putting, I would consider it a breach.
Edit: and the Decision posted above shows I could be wrong, but there is still 14-3 (artificial devices, unusual equipment)!

 

I think "touching" refers to physically touching.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the intent behind the prohibition against touching the line of putt is to prevent a player from changing the physical characteristics of the green along the line to give him an advantage?  I don't see a laser pointer as any different than pointing out the line with a putter head, or even a shadow, and then removing it.

 

Seems kind of laborious though, and at any kind of distance, probably a lot harder to see than just about any other manner of legally indicating the line....

post #23 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by David in FL View Post

I think "touching" refers to physically touching.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the intent behind the prohibition against touching the line of putt is to prevent a player from changing the physical characteristics of the green along the line to give him an advantage?  I don't see a laser pointer as any different than pointing out the line with a putter head, or even a shadow, and then removing it.

Seems kind of laborious though, and at any kind of distance, probably a lot harder to see than just about any other manner of legally indicating the line....

Touching the green while pointing out a line for putting isn't the same as touching the line of putt. The prohibition of touching the green when pointing out a line for putting applies to the entire green, not only areas where touching might improve anything. It's not an improvement/advantage Rule.
post #24 of 64

There could be some sort of 14-3 argument against the practice, too.

post #25 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asheville View Post
 

There could be some sort of 14-3 argument against the practice, too.

 

I'm not sure how using a pointer would be any different than using something to cast a shadow or otherwise indicate the line.  It wouldn't be used in an "unusual" way and it would also be used in it's "traditionally accepted manner".......

 

 

 

Except as provided in the Rules, during a stipulated round the player must not use any artificial device or unusual equipment (see Appendix IV for detailed specifications and interpretations), or use any equipment in an unusual manner:

 

a. That might assist him in making a stroke or in his play; or

 

b. For the purpose of gauging or measuring distance or conditions that might affect his play; or

 

c. That might assist him in gripping the club, except that:

  • (i)  gloves may be worn provided that they are plain gloves;
  • (ii)  resin, powder and drying or moisturizing agents may be used; and
  • (iii)  a towel or handkerchief may be wrapped around the grip.
  •  

Exceptions:

 

1. A player is not in breach of this Rule if (a) the equipment or device is designed for or has the effect of alleviating a medical condition, (b) the player has a legitimate medical reason to use the equipment or device, and (c) the Committee is satisfied that its use does not give the player any undue advantage over other players.

 

2. A player is not in breach of this Rule if he uses equipment in a traditionally accepted manner.

 

 

 

I just don't see a breach.  Nothing in Appendix IV either.....

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by rogolf View Post


Touching the green while pointing out a line for putting isn't the same as touching the line of putt. The prohibition of touching the green when pointing out a line for putting applies to the entire green, not only areas where touching might improve anything. It's not an improvement/advantage Rule.

 

 

Of course you're right.  I went brain dead......

post #26 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by David in FL View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asheville View Post
 

There could be some sort of 14-3 argument against the practice, too.

 

I'm not sure how using a pointer would be any different than using something to cast a shadow or otherwise indicate the line.  It wouldn't be used in an "unusual" way and it would also be used in it's "traditionally accepted manner".......

 

 

 

Except as provided in the Rules, during a stipulated round the player must not use any artificial device or unusual equipment (see Appendix IV for detailed specifications and interpretations), or use any equipment in an unusual manner:

 

a. That might assist him in making a stroke or in his play; or

 

b. For the purpose of gauging or measuring distance or conditions that might affect his play; or

 

c. That might assist him in gripping the club, except that:

  • (i)  gloves may be worn provided that they are plain gloves;
  • (ii)  resin, powder and drying or moisturizing agents may be used; and
  • (iii)  a towel or handkerchief may be wrapped around the grip.
  •  

Exceptions:

 

1. A player is not in breach of this Rule if (a) the equipment or device is designed for or has the effect of alleviating a medical condition, (b) the player has a legitimate medical reason to use the equipment or device, and (c) the Committee is satisfied that its use does not give the player any undue advantage over other players.

 

2. A player is not in breach of this Rule if he uses equipment in a traditionally accepted manner.

 

 

 

I just don't see a breach.  Nothing in Appendix IV either.....

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by rogolf View Post


Touching the green while pointing out a line for putting isn't the same as touching the line of putt. The prohibition of touching the green when pointing out a line for putting applies to the entire green, not only areas where touching might improve anything. It's not an improvement/advantage Rule.

 

 

Of course you're right.  I went brain dead......

 

Ha, so many 14-3 discussions end in a death spiral of semantics or a complex posting endurance contest ... I regret even broaching the subject. ;-)

post #27 of 64

No penalty under Rule 8-2b.  Touching means physically touching, shadows, light beams, etc. don't breach the rule, as long as the indication is removed before the stroke is made.

 

You may not physically touch the Line for Putting, or the Line of Putt (the latter has 7 exceptions under the Rule).

 

I looked at 14-3, nothing convincing to me one way or another.

 

Joe, I'd hate to be a Referee when you're playing.  :-)

post #28 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asheville View Post
 

There could be some sort of 14-3 argument against the practice, too.

 

I don't think there is.

 

It's an artificial device, but it's being used in the typical manner.

 

A golf instruction book is an artificial device, but so long as you use it in the typical fashion (by reading it), and not by holding it up and seeing how fast the wind flips the pages, it's fine. The latter (using it as a wind speed gauge) is not.

 

Still, in the case of laser pointer, it's not touching the line of the putt at all, but I still wouldn't bother - just use your club, the end of the flagstick, etc. Then nobody has any questions, because someone out there might disagree with my opinion on 14-3 re: a laser pointer. :)

post #29 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asheville View Post
 

There could be some sort of 14-3 argument against the practice, too.

 

I don't think there is.

 

It's an artificial device, but it's being used in the typical manner.

 

A golf instruction book is an artificial device, but so long as you use it in the typical fashion (by reading it), and not by holding it up and seeing how fast the wind flips the pages, it's fine. The latter (using it as a wind speed gauge) is not.

 

Still, in the case of laser pointer, it's not touching the line of the putt at all, but I still wouldn't bother - just use your club, the end of the flagstick, etc. Then nobody has any questions, because someone out there might disagree with my opinion on 14-3 re: a laser pointer. :)

 

Except that it is unusual equipment for golf.  

 

Rule14-3:

 

Quote:
 

Except as provided in the Rules, during a stipulated round the player must not use any artificial device or unusual equipment (see Appendix IV for detailed specifications and interpretations), or use any equipment in an unusual manner:

a. That might assist him in making a stroke or in his play

 

Appendix IV:

Quote:
 A player in doubt as to whether use of a device or other equipment would constitute a breach of the Rules should consult the USGA.

 

I tend to agree that use of such a device would probably be allowed as long as it it turned off before the stroke is made, but I still feel that there is room for doubt.

post #30 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post
 

 

Except that it is unusual equipment for golf.  

 

It's not being used to play golf. Eyeglasses, a 9-volt battery, and a sharpie are also "unusual equipment for golf…" except for the fact that they're a special category of equipment called "artificial devices."

 

What are eyeglasses and a laser pen (etc.)? Artificial devices. Just like a book, or a calculator. You can use a calculator during a round of golf, and use it to calculate things, but you can't hit your ball with it.

post #31 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post

It's not being used to play golf. Eyeglasses, a 9-volt battery, and a sharpie are also "unusual equipment for golf…" except for the fact that they're a special category of equipment called "artificial devices."

What are eyeglasses and a laser pen (etc.)? Artificial devices. Just like a book, or a calculator. You can use a calculator during a round of golf, and use it to calculate things, but you can't hit your ball with it.

Definition of equipment from the Rule book - anything used, worn or carried by the player or anything carried for the player by his partner, or either of their caddies......

Hence eyeglasses, a 9-volt battery, a sharpie are equipment if carried by the player.
post #32 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogolf View Post

Definition of equipment from the Rule book - anything used, worn or carried by the player or anything carried for the player by his partner, or either of their caddies......

Hence eyeglasses, a 9-volt battery, a sharpie are equipment if carried by the player.

 

I'm aware of that. I'm saying that for the purposes of this rule, the words "artificial devices" apply more so. This isn't a ball striking the "equipment" of a player or his caddie, etc. You'll note there's no definition of "artificial devices" and so my point remains - the laser pointer is more of an artificial device. If you insist on calling it equipment for 14-3, then projecting a beam of light is exactly the "usual manner" in which one uses a laser pointer, and "pointing" is a traditionally accepted method of showing a player where to aim.

 

Pointing a laser dot on the green does not "assist him in making a stroke." It doesn't "gauge or measure distance or conditions" and it certainly doesn't help him grip the club.

 

The rules add this as well:
2. A player is not in breach of this Rule if he uses equipment in a traditionally accepted manner.

 

Pointing a laser, is, again the traditionally accepted manner of using a laser pointer, just as using a calculator to do math is the traditionally accepted manner of using a calculator, and reading a book is the traditionally accepted manner of using a book.

 

A book cannot be used to stretch a golfer. A club can, but that falls under a stricter definition of "equipment." You can't use a swing donut, but you can use a stretching bar or your driver or swing two clubs at the same time to get the same effects. The stretching bar is an artificial device, but it's used in the traditionally accepted manner (stretching).

 

Heck, you can even use a pencil in an odd way - to gauge distance (14-3/2). 14-3/5 calls  "booklet" an "artificial device" (not "equipment) and says it's legal, because it's use is traditionally accepted. 14-3/5.5 expands on 14-3/5 to say you can have an electronic "booklet" and it too is fine. In that sense, a laser pointer is simply a means of pointing, and such methods (pointing) have been traditionally accepted so long as the line isn't touched. 

 

14-3/11 says you can't use a plum line, but you can use a club (14-3/12). 14-3/12.5 says you can carry bottles of water around the course, so long as you don't use them in a non-traditionally accepted manner (finding the level of the green).

 

None of the "However" examples in this are met by a laser pointer:

 

 

Quote:

14-3/16

Use of Electronic Devices

As provided in the Etiquette Section, players should ensure that any electronic device taken onto the course does not distract other players.

The use of an electronic device such as a mobile phone, hand-held computer, calculator, television or radio is not of itself a breach of Rule 14-3. For example, the following uses of an electronic device during a stipulated round are not a breach of the Rules:

  • Using the device for matters unrelated to golf (e.g., to call home);
  • Using the device to access information on advice-related matters that was produced prior to the start of the player's round (e.g., an electronic yardage book, swing tips);
  • Using the device to access (but not interpret or process) playing information from previous rounds (e.g., driving distances, individual club yardages, etc.); or
  • Using the device to obtain information related to the competition being played (e.g., the leader board or projected "cut").

However, examples of uses of an electronic device during a stipulated round that are a breach of Rule 14-3, for which the penalty is disqualification, include:

  • Using the device (e.g., a television or radio) to watch or listen to a broadcast of the competition being played;
  • Using the device to ask for or give advice in breach of Rule 8-1(e.g., calling a swing coach);
  • Using the device to access information on advice-related matters that was not produced prior to the start of his round (e.g., analysis of strokes made during that round); or
  • Using the device to interpret or process any playing information obtained from current or previous rounds (e.g., driving distances, individual club yardages, etc.) or to assist in calculating the effective distance between two points (i.e., distance after considering gradient, wind speed and/or direction, temperature or other environmental factors).

 

 

NB it says "electronic devices" and not "electronic equipment" - further speaking to my point that though "equipment" is the over-arching definition, for the purposes of this discussion, considering it "artificial devices" makes more sense and fine-tunes the discussion.

 

So, at the end, I conclude:

  • Using a laser pointer to point at the line on the putting green - fine.
  • Using a laser pointer to say "start it just right of this tree" (and pointing at the trunk of said tree) - fine.
  • Using a laser pointer during a swing at all - not fine.
  • Using a laser pointer to distract others, etc. - obviously not fine.

 

It's being used, in this thread, simply to point. That's what a laser pointer does, and pointing is a traditionally accepted thing in golf. Caddies have been doing it for centuries. It seems stupid to me to carry a laser pointer to do so, but I do not believe it's against the rules at all.

post #33 of 64
Imo, there's one significant error in your reasoning. "In a traditionally accepted manner" relates to use "traditionally accepted" in the game of golf. It does not simply mean using an artifical device (equipment) for what that device was designed to do. For example, laser pointers do not have any traditionally accepted manner of use in the game of golf.
post #34 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogolf View Post

Imo, there's one significant error in your reasoning. "In a traditionally accepted manner" relates to use "traditionally accepted" in the game of golf. It does not simply mean using an artifical device (equipment) for what that device was designed to do. For example, laser pointers do not have any traditionally accepted manner of use in the game of golf.

 

And I made the point (no pun intended) that the act of pointing is traditionally accepted.

 

You could point with a stick, a club, the flagstick, your finger, etc. The act of pointing is traditionally accepted. That you're using an artificial device to do it (as you are when you use almost anything but your finger) is almost beside the point, as the artificial device is not being used to measure, not being used to assist the player in making a stroke, etc.

 

When were books ever traditionally accepted for use when playing golf? Because they're used in the traditionally accepted manner, you can read a book on the golf course, even if it contains instructional material.

post #35 of 64

Do we agree that a laser pointer is an artificial device? I think it is an artificial device.  If we all agree with that premise, then would pointing out a line or spot with the laser pointer assist someone in their play?  I think that answer has to be "yes" otherwise why use the pointer.  The Rule in part states:

 

Except as provided in the Rules, during a stipulated round the player must not use any artificial device ... that might assist him in ... his play; ...

 

I am coming late to this party but using a laser pointer to assist the player in lining up his shot or putt, if we agree it is an artificial device, appears to be a problem.  Using a shadow cast by a caddy holding a club or flagstick and then moving away does not involve the use of an artificial device and so that Decision makes sense.  It does not follow that all manner of pointing out a line are permitted and that would include laser pointers.

post #36 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by bkuehn1952 View Post
 

Do we agree that a laser pointer is an artificial device? I think it is an artificial device.

 

Yes. It's clearly not natural or whatever the opposite of "artificial" would be.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bkuehn1952 View Post
 

If we all agree with that premise, then would pointing out a line or spot with the laser pointer assist someone in their play?  I think that answer has to be "yes" otherwise why use the pointer. 

 

No. I don't think that's what's meant by "assist someone with his play." Heck, if you took it the way you're trying to take it, a nice breakfast could "assist someone with his play." An electric fan in the golf cart could "assist someone with his play" by keeping him cool. A towel can "assist someone with his play" by wiping the sweat from his brow (or a hat, or a sweatband), and those are even worn while making a stroke.

 

There's a fuzzy line drawn about what "in his play" means, but since you can point to the spot using any manner of artificial devices and/or equipment, I believe a laser pointer is simply another pointing device.

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