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65/20/15 Practice Ratios: Where to Devote Your Practice Time - Page 11

post #181 of 501

I'm not a proponent of the non-professional teachers but there are very good exceptions.   I would trust Tiger Woods or Phil Mickelson before my neighbor that shoots 90.   I would have also trusted Sparky Anderson to coach either the Cincinnati Reds or the Detroit Tigers and he wasn't much of a baseball player.   Did Vince Lombardi not become the greatest American Football coach ever?  He wasn't much of a player.

post #182 of 501
Quote:
Originally Posted by dennyjones View Post

I'm not a proponent of the non-professional teachers but there are very good exceptions.   I would trust Tiger Woods or Phil Mickelson before my neighbor that shoots 90.   I would have also trusted Sparky Anderson to coach either the Cincinnati Reds or the Detroit Tigers and he wasn't much of a baseball player.   Did Vince Lombardi not become the greatest American Football coach ever?  He wasn't much of a player.


Actually, Anderson played in the major leagues, although not for long.  He was one of those AAA guys who hung around year after year, relying on his baseball smarts.  That's what first got him going into coaching after his playing days.

 

Lombardi played football in college, then later some semi-pro.  But back then, pro football wasn't the high-paying career choice.  Thus, he got into coaching.  Not saying he would have been all-pro, but to say he wasn't much of a player is inaccurate.

 

Anyway, you can't compare a team (baseball, football, etc.) coach with an individual (golf, tennis) coach. Different skill sets are required to be successful.  Team sports require more field management and team strategy. Thus a caddy on the bag might be the equivalent of a team sport coach, helping his player devise a strategy to play each hole, offering encouragement, reading greens.  Some caddies are excellent players, but it isn't a requirement.

 

A golf instructor/coach is more like a position coach in team sports. They specialize in a certain specific area of their game.  They are knowledgeable through study AND THROUGH PERSONAL EXPERIENCE how to perform whatever action they are teaching. How else can they retain the confidence of their players, if they cannot demonstrate what they are talking about?

post #183 of 501
Good read and concept. From my novice perspective, I can see the advantage of the 65/25/10 practice ratio moving forward. Todays putts per were 1.61 indicating chips/pitches were close to the pin and putting was generally good. However, I was inconsistant on my full shots, a couple shanks, several really fat shots, and alignment issues off the tee. I appreciate and needed the intense short game work i've done to this point, and i'll make sure I maintain it. It just seems for my game, I have a much greater opertunity to shave strokes working on my full shots on the driving range.
post #184 of 501
Thread Starter 

A graphic from a recent magazine:

 

1000

 

I know it's coming at the problem from the back side a little, but here are the #1 and #2 best players on the PGA Tour in 2012.

 

Rory gained 2.9 strokes against the field per round, and Tiger gained 2.8. Here's how those break down as percentages (or just look at the pie charts :D).

 

Stat Rory Tiger Combined
Driving 1.2 (41.38%) 0.7 (25%) 1.9 (33.33%)
Approach Shots 1.3 (44.83%) 1.4 (50%) 2.7 (47.37%)
Long Game 2.5 (86.21%) 2.1 (75%) 4.6 (80.70%)
Short Game 0.3 (10.34%) 0.3 (10.71%) 0.6 (10.53%)
Putting 0.1 (3.45%) 0.4 (14.29%) 0.5 (8.77%)
Short Game 0.4 (13.79%) 0.7 (25%) 1.1 (19.30%)

 

Luke Donald is cited as the example of how you can make up strokes with putts gained, but his average (which put him third in 2012) is only 0.797 strokes. And his adjusted scoring average (remember, Rory is #1 and Tiger is #2)...? 10th. He's gaining almost twice as many putts per round as Tiger and Rory combined and yet finished eight spots behind the worst of the pair.

 

And btw, I've seen Luke Donald practice - even he doesn't spend more than 15% of his time on his putting.

post #185 of 501

Look at when Luke jumped to world number 1,

He jumped from 150th in driving and approach to the green to around 40/50 in both cateogires, from 2010 to 2011, about 100 place rankings better. Yet Luke Donald led the PGA in strokes gained putting both of those years. 

 

In 2012, Luke's Driving got better, but his GIR's dropped to 100th, you see him not living up to that 2011 year this year. 

 

Doesn't matter how good a putter you are, if your just putting for pars on the PGA, your not going to score well. 

 

Think of it this way, putting is all opportunity based. To score you need to give yourself the opportunity to use your good putting. Meaning, hitting a lot of Greens In Regulation. 

 

But like everything, this is fluid, if you are a really really bad putter, then yea spend more time on it. I don't get why people always get all uptight about specifics, just do what works for you. If you feel like your making a lot of putts, but not scoring, then work on the long game to maximize that good putting, its pretty simple to understand. 

post #186 of 501

I am comfortable with my swing so my time is quite a bit different. I spend 60% on short game 100yrds or closer. 30% on putting. Average range time on a practice day is 90 minutes. On full swing I switch up one time be a 6I or 7 or 8. I do hit 25 shots with driver 30 shots with 3 wood moving my aim point each time.On 3 wood 15 off deck 15 off teed ball. Some days I do a drill with my driver after I hit my 25 shots I set up and try to hit it 150 yrds and only 150yrds off the deck, this helps me overall with punch shots I have to use to get out of trouble. When you can control a driver like this drill then a 5 iron is easy. Also I never hit my driver full bore on the range. 80 to 90% swing.

post #187 of 501
You're a nine handicap Did you read the first post? 60% of your time on your short game and 30% on your putting????
Quote:
Originally Posted by slufoot7 View Post

I am comfortable with my swing so my time is quite a bit different. I spend 60% on short game 100yrds or closer. 30% on putting. Average range time on a practice day is 90 minutes. On full swing I switch up one time be a 6I or 7 or 8. I do hit 25 shots with driver 30 shots with 3 wood moving my aim point each time.On 3 wood 15 off deck 15 off teed ball. Some days I do a drill with my driver after I hit my 25 shots I set up and try to hit it 150 yrds and only 150yrds off the deck, this helps me overall with punch shots I have to use to get out of trouble. When you can control a driver like this drill then a 5 iron is easy. Also I never hit my driver full bore on the range. 80 to 90% swing.
post #188 of 501
I have never understood the argument that more time should be devoted to the short game than the long game. I always thought of the majority of the short game as a contingency for when the long game fails. Theoretically, if my long game was "perfect," I would hit every fairway and GIR. I guarantee I would post lower scores with 18 GIR. On the other hand, I could one putt every hole and still shoot bogey if I can't keep the ball in play or out of hazards.

I understand these scenarios are unrealistic as golfers tend to improve in multiple areas simultaneously; I'm just trying to illustrate my point.
post #189 of 501
some good info! i dont spend that much time on the putting green myself id rather spend it on my long game. for me on my long game distance is n problem,i dont get the same distance on every shot.
post #190 of 501

Hi there... just jumping into the conversation

 

As a high handicapper, presently I place a premium on my second shot situations. Presently, my intermediate and long irons are my problem. For Xmas (yesterday) I received a practice net and a met from buddies of mine (nice message fellas).

 

This thread really helps me focus on what I should be working on.

 

I have spent most of my time on my driver and wedges (those are working ok, but improvement is always needed). Seems I really should work on my full swings with my longer irons.

 

Excellent thread and subject matter.

post #191 of 501
Quote:
Originally Posted by JetFan1983 View Post

 

Exactly. There's a reason the governing bodies of golf call the short game statistic "scrambling." You can't make a lot of birdies when you miss a green.

 

The pros who get interviewed on TV are almost always the ones who are doing really, really well on tour. They're generally hitting the ball great, so what separates them on Sunday is often getting up and down on the few greens they do miss, or making an extra birdie putt or two. And I'm not sure what golf shows you are watching Gaijin, but no, tour pros aren't "99% of the time telling people to practice their short game." Where'd you come up with that stat? Sure, they tell people to practice it a lot, but they tell people to hit the ball better a lot too. And they're certainly not dumb enough to tell an athletic 40 year old amateur at the pro-am -- who is getting up and down like a madman all day but only carrying his driver about 220 yards -- to keep practicing his short game.

 

Now, amongst the tour pros -- in terms of actually playing the game -- you certainly have exceptions to the rule like Boo Weekley, who led the tour in GIR% last year but lost his tour card because he was also ranked dead last in putting. In his case, yea, get your ass to the putting green, Boo. But amateurs are hardly the ball strikers Boo is. 9 handicaps are missing 10 or 11 greens (or more) in regulation on courses that are shorter than 6500 yards. That's absolutely pathetic if you think about it. With the short game on the other hand, you often see a lot of amateurs being good at getting up down or at least making no worse than bogey. They're good at it because, one, they're always missing greens and thus get to hit these shots a lot. But also, two, because it's really not that complicated to learn how to hit simple pitches and chips. I'm not sure who you are typically playing golf with, but the guys who are really good at golf are constantly hitting greens and giving themselves chances at birdie.  

 

 

Ultimately, practicing the long game takes more work, more homework, and more discipline for the average amateur to improve at. And for the average amateur, golf is just for fun -- a hobby -- not something he or she necessarily wants to grind at. It's so much easier learning how to get up and down or lag a putt. And you're still improving practicing short game and putting so why not just latch myself onto that? It makes sense why the long game is often neglected by veteran amateurs. It's just too much of a hassle learning how to hit the ball better. Plus, it's so much easier on the joints just sticking to the short game practice area. But like Erik said, he only hits a ball once every 2-3 minutes. He knows what he's working on. Pretty much every amateur has no clue what to fill those 2-3 minute gaps between shots with, so they just beat balls. It's fruitless, you get worse, you tweak a muscle, etc. I get it. The short game is easier to deal with.


Hi Jet...

 

I really really like your post. For years off and on, I have gotten lessons and really get into the swing of things when I absolutely have to stop.

 

I told my wife that this time around, golf is here to stay. I am a discliplined person and really want to be better in terms of the mental aspect of the game. I figure if I grind it out and be discliplined in my approach and preparation for the game, good things I have been expecting will happen.

 

Thank you for this great post.

post #192 of 501

Erik,

 

If I may ask a question germane to this discussion?

 

I am so compressed for time and given the distance to my range, I really have to get in and get started on range work. I find myself (please dont laugh guys, although you are all guffawing now) blowing through 2 buckets in about 1 - 1.25 hours. I do get some noticable improvement as I figured out some stuff.

 

Is this too fast or too many balls? On some days I do about 2 buckets (great pyramid program at my home course) other days I feel like 4 buckets (1 bucket driver, 2 buckets short game, 1 bucket intermediate/long).

 

How should I structure both my indoor work and my range work? I just dont go out with a solid plan. From reading here, you all seem to have an idea on putting together a discliplined and structured practice plan?

post #193 of 501
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tstrike34 View Post

I am so compressed for time and given the distance to my range, I really have to get in and get started on range work. I find myself (please dont laugh guys, although you are all guffawing now) blowing through 2 buckets in about 1 - 1.25 hours. I do get some noticable improvement as I figured out some stuff.

 

Is this too fast or too many balls? On some days I do about 2 buckets (great pyramid program at my home course) other days I feel like 4 buckets (1 bucket driver, 2 buckets short game, 1 bucket intermediate/long).

 

How should I structure both my indoor work and my range work? I just dont go out with a solid plan. From reading here, you all seem to have an idea on putting together a discliplined and structured practice plan?

 

Check this thread out... http://thesandtrap.com/t/54840/simple-specific-slow-short-and-success-the-five-s-s-of-great-practice/ .

 

I think you could get more out of 15 minutes of effective practice over 1-1.25 hours of rapid firing golf shots if you can learn to practice effectively, especially if you can do 15 minutes a day at your house when you can't make it to the range.

post #194 of 501

Any chance to appoint you for sainthood? z5_smartass.gif
 

Thank you Erik. I will read carefully.

post #195 of 501
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post

 

Check this thread out... http://thesandtrap.com/t/54840/simple-specific-slow-short-and-success-the-five-s-s-of-great-practice/ .

 

I think you could get more out of 15 minutes of effective practice over 1-1.25 hours of rapid firing golf shots if you can learn to practice effectively, especially if you can do 15 minutes a day at your house when you can't make it to the range.


Erik,

 

I read your thread. I think I see the point: I am working too fast on the range and in the garage now dubbed: "The Chamber".

 

It shows here: http://thesandtrap.com/t/63845/my-swing-tstrike34

 

I appreciate the thoughts now in this thread for it screams two things: Be discliplined and Be economical.

 

Thank you.

post #196 of 501
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post

A graphic from a recent magazine:

 

1000

 

I know it's coming at the problem from the back side a little, but here are the #1 and #2 best players on the PGA Tour in 2012.

 

Rory gained 2.9 strokes against the field per round, and Tiger gained 2.8. Here's how those break down as percentages (or just look at the pie charts :D).

 

Stat Rory Tiger Combined
Driving 1.2 (41.38%) 0.7 (25%) 1.9 (33.33%)
Approach Shots 1.3 (44.83%) 1.4 (50%) 2.7 (47.37%)
Long Game 2.5 (86.21%) 2.1 (75%) 4.6 (80.70%)
Short Game 0.3 (10.34%) 0.3 (10.71%) 0.6 (10.53%)
Putting 0.1 (3.45%) 0.4 (14.29%) 0.5 (8.77%)
Short Game 0.4 (13.79%) 0.7 (25%) 1.1 (19.30%)

 

Luke Donald is cited as the example of how you can make up strokes with putts gained, but his average (which put him third in 2012) is only 0.797 strokes. And his adjusted scoring average (remember, Rory is #1 and Tiger is #2)...? 10th. He's gaining almost twice as many putts per round as Tiger and Rory combined and yet finished eight spots behind the worst of the pair.

 

And btw, I've seen Luke Donald practice - even he doesn't spend more than 15% of his time on his putting.


It's impossible to dispute these facts.  Arguing otherwise is pointless

post #197 of 501

Those are facts. What is questionable is the interpretation of the facts.  Maybe it just means that Rory and Tiger are great long game players and if you wait 10 years the top 2 guys will be super putters and short game players (note in his prime Tiger was in the top  5 in pretty much everything. That is what made him Tiger and not Vijay for example. Give him the short game and putting from his prime and he might have won 2 majors this year).  The facts are indisputable (well I guess you could question methodology), the interpretation is that you need to practice 65/25/10 is.  Now the published Tiger woods practice schedule has him doing 4.5 hours of driving, 1 hour of short game and 1 hour of putting (along with 18 holes of golf). That is even more long game practice that was suggested but I always take published stuff on pros with a grain of salt. Unless you get a full year schedule you can never be quite sure what you are looking at.

 

That being said ratio seems about right to me but it isn't like this is backed up by scientific studies.  And if I had to guess a good periodization program would yield much better results than doing 65/25/10 year round. Focusing on one skill for 2-4 weeks periods while maintaining others has proven very effective in other sports. I am unaware of any golf specific studies though.

 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deryck Griffith View Post


It's impossible to dispute these facts.  Arguing otherwise is pointless

post #198 of 501
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by x129 View Post

Maybe it just means that Rory and Tiger are great long game players and if you wait 10 years the top 2 guys will be super putters and short game players (note in his prime Tiger was in the top  5 in pretty much everything.

 

FWIW, Tiger still gained way more shots per round with his long clubs than he ever did with his short game and putting. I'm fairly certain the gap was even wider then (his long game was even MORE important), but then again he was winning majors by 15 shots then, too, so... :P You aren't going to do that with putting. :)

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by x129 View Post

That being said ratio seems about right to me but it isn't like this is backed up by scientific studies. And if I had to guess a good periodization program would yield much better results than doing 65/25/10 year round.

 

It's backed up by studies about how important each part of the game is, but yes, the studies end there and I add things in like "how difficult the skills are to maintain" and stuff like that.

 

And 65/25/10 does not say you have to practice those same ratios each session. They simply say that to be balanced you should practice in roughly those ratios. Whether that ratio is within 90 minutes or over the course of a season doesn't matter to me, so you can have periods where you work only on your putting. No problems with that.

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