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65/20/15 Practice Ratios: Where to Devote Your Practice Time - Page 15

post #253 of 491
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post

I don't know if the numbers say that. It doesn't factor in the fact that one of the biggest reasons the 18 HC's UD% is low is that they also leave themselves in TERRIBLE positions. So "instantly giving them 77%" tends to be a bogus way of figuring stuff like that out.

Of course it is bogus, it gives the 18HCer too much benefit of the doubt.  But for me it quantifies the benefit of long game ability. For the 18, add a couple strokes for terrible spots, add a couple for penalty strokes, add one for a three putt, and add a couple in which the scratch player make birdie.  The point is that all things being equal which they are not, and with an overly generous amount of grace the short game improvement still does not equal the ability to score when hitting greens like a scratch player.   

post #254 of 491
Is there a point in development that this changes? I've never done much practicing, range before a round if my driver or irons aren't cooperating and 3 or 4 min on practice green to get a feel for speed. is there a point when solid full swing mechanics become good enough that more time should be spent else where?
post #255 of 491
Quote:
Originally Posted by hero12 View Post

Is there a point in development that this changes? I've never done much practicing, range before a round if my driver or irons aren't cooperating and 3 or 4 min on practice green to get a feel for speed. is there a point when solid full swing mechanics become good enough that more time should be spent else where?

 

There may not be an industry standard, but I'm guessing some Pros have an opinion on the matter.  

 

For me, I don't practice my short game until it starts to hinder my ability to score or save pars.  When I'm shooting in the 90s, it ain't my short game that's the problem, so I don't even bother.  When I'm shooting high 70s and low 80s, that's when I start worrying about it.  

post #256 of 491
Quote:
Originally Posted by hero12 View Post

Is there a point in development that this changes? I've never done much practicing, range before a round if my driver or irons aren't cooperating and 3 or 4 min on practice green to get a feel for speed. is there a point when solid full swing mechanics become good enough that more time should be spent else where?


I think when you get to the point where you no longer "throw away" strokes by consistently hitting it OB, chunking/shanking full swings, and such. In other words, you can reliably hit the ball more or less toward your target. Once you get to that point, then the short game becomes more important to you.  Until then, get your full swing under control.

 

Certainly at a 6.9 you should be able to save some strokes just by tightening up your short game, if that is a problem area for you.

post #257 of 491
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hero12 View Post

Is there a point in development that this changes? I've never done much practicing, range before a round if my driver or irons aren't cooperating and 3 or 4 min on practice green to get a feel for speed. is there a point when solid full swing mechanics become good enough that more time should be spent else where?

 

No.

 

I think if you practice 65/25/10 and nothing ever gets out of whack (the "glaring weakness" type of thing), you keep doing them in that ratio and depending on the amount, you'll either hold steady or gradually improve each area at roughly the same pace.

 

If you suddenly become a 3 handicap full swing with an 8 handicap short game and a 6 handicap putter, then that's what I'd call a glaring weakness.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harmonious View Post

I think when you get to the point where you no longer "throw away" strokes by consistently hitting it OB, chunking/shanking full swings, and such. In other words, you can reliably hit the ball more or less toward your target. Once you get to that point, then the short game becomes more important to you.

 

PGA Tour players still practice their full swing much more than their short game. For good reason, too: Tiger, Rory, etc. make up more shots on the field with their stellar full swing play than they make up via short game and putting combined.

post #258 of 491
Interesting thread. After ten years of telling myself I needed to put much more emphasis on the short game to improve faster, I recently realized - before reading this thread a1_smile.gif - that it's GIRs that track closest with my scores and that good-driving days almost always have the best results. When I finally broke 80 last month, it was because of best-ever FWYs (64%) and GIRs (61%) - I did not have a particularly good day around the greens. Usually my FWYs are in 15-40% territory and my GIRs are, well, the less said the better.

I'm not saying that my short game can't stand improvement - it surely can and I'll keep working on it - but that isn't where the big numbers lie for me at the moment. So yes, I buy into the thesis.
Edited by Chas - 4/24/13 at 4:38pm
post #259 of 491

Interesting thread this and got me thinking seriously which areas were lacking. I always 3 putt a few times a round but upon looking back on some rounds I realised the real reason I 3 putt is because I'm too far away for the first putt. Not tthat I'm a bad putter I'm giving myself no chance to score par.

 

Hence my real glaring weakness is chipping and those soft pitches,not getting close enough or absolutely chunking chips every round. Adding up the chunks it seemed I was doing that 3-4 times a round. Then there are those that I leave short or hit long. Possibly giving away up to 10 shots on chips and short pitches. If I get them closer clean up the errors I could 2 putt more often even one putt and gain maybe 6 strokes.

 

So 15 strokes maybe a round without hitting the ball any further would put me in the 85 range a round. I took the advice of this thread and practiced chipping more than anything else. Went with Phil's H&H I know there is debate on this but it turned around my fortunes remarkably. In fact I really enjoy chipping now in fact I find it easy. For the first time in my life I can do one handed drills both hands.

 

Now I feel there is real balance in my game across the board. My only concern is bunkers. I have no facilities to practice this. Both driving ranges I go to have no practice bunker. In a game I find at least one. I know the technique but struggle with the depth of sand to take. I usually end up going to deep. If I could spend a day or two in one I know I could improve this as a lot of it is confidence.

 

I agree also that your tee shot more than any other shot dictates your hole. I practice with the 3 wood and a low lofted hybrid a lot because that's what I'm teeing off with more than often. My weakness now is those mid range irons into greens. Those that are reachable. If a par 4 is too long than a 3 shot strategy often plays out well for me but it's going for a GIR that gets me in trouble. So right now I practice a bit more with 5-7 irons as they are the money shots. I don't need to hit them further just control the shape. You only have to pull it left a touch or catch it slightly heavy and be short and a stroke has been added unless you can get up and down like a pro.

 

I would also add that working on your long game makes pitching in particular more efficient because it's a scaled down version of your full swing. Basically pitching is an accuracy shot to a much shorter distance and if you are hitting it well than pitching really shouldn't hold any fears.

post #260 of 491

Very interesting topic.  I have generally and approximately followed Erik's ratios on my own practice; however, I recently changed them owing to an online software evaluation program of one's game strengths and weakness.  You log data from every round.  It tells me that my long game is +7, short game is +4, sand play +3, and my putting is a 12 average and sometimes I putt like a 20 Hcp.  So, I am now spending much more time practicing my putting and it has improved but my long game has suffered.  Maybe my ratio might should be 40/25/35 instead of 20/30/50.  I am probably spending too much time on my putting.

 

I am coming full circle.

 

The game is not as hard when thinking of fairways, greens, and lag putts.

 

My experiment is not over. 

 

I am coming to the conclusion that the long game accounts for at least 50% of your score and putting probably only 25%.  Think of it.  Pros might make 27-29 putts in a round whereas the average golfer might need 34-36 putts.  There is only maybe 8 shots of improvement to be made on the green.  Pros might hit 32-34 full shots into the greens whereas  24-28 HcP amateurs probably hit closer to 55-65 full shots on an average round.  The variance between a pro and amateur is greatest when it comes to the long game.

post #261 of 491
Quote:
Originally Posted by hero12 View Post

Is there a point in development that this changes? I've never done much practicing, range before a round if my driver or irons aren't cooperating and 3 or 4 min on practice green to get a feel for speed. is there a point when solid full swing mechanics become good enough that more time should be spent else where?

 

I don't know but I never ever practice my long game before a round.

 

I just dance with the lady I brung.

 

Practice is usually its own day or maybe after I round if it went badly.

post #262 of 491
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddie Weatherby View Post

Very interesting topic.  I have generally and approximately followed Erik's ratios on my own practice; however, I recently changed them owing to an online software evaluation program of one's game strengths and weakness.  You log data from every round.  It tells me that my long game is +7, short game is +4, sand play +3, and my putting is a 12 average and sometimes I putt like a 20 Hcp.  So, I am now spending much more time practicing my putting and it has improved but my long game has suffered.  Maybe my ratio might should be 40/25/35 instead of 20/30/50.  I am probably spending too much time on my putting.

 

In other words, you ignored this part of my first post: "Unless you have a glaring weakness or a facet of your game which far outshines the others…"

post #263 of 491
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddie Weatherby View Post

I am coming to the conclusion that the long game accounts for at least 50% of your score and putting probably only 25%.  Think of it.  Pros might make 27-29 putts in a round whereas the average golfer might need 34-36 putts. 

 

A lot of this has to do with proximity to the hole.  It would be impossible for an average golfer who's a 10-20hcp to have 27-29 putts when he's....

 

1. Hitting the green and has 70 foot putts every hole (those distances are hard to 1putt)

2. Missing the green by LARGE margins which makes the level of difficulty to get up and down almost impossible.  The margin in which the "average golfer" misses the green would even be difficult for the professional golfer to get up and down from.

 

While this isn't scientific data, in my experience, my putts have always dropped under 30 during my best ball striking rounds (and during those rounds, I didn't practice putting any more than I usually do).  Most people who track their rounds I'm sure would say the same.

 

I don't understand why everyone makes putting seem so overly complex.  When I finally get a chance to drag him out, my brother, who has played 3 times in 5 years putts well after he gets going for a couple of holes.  The rest of us who have been playing for years (and those of you who have had your handicaps barely drop over those years), all are competent enough at putting.  Putting becomes MUCH easier when you are hitting the ball closer to the hole.

 

It really is simple logic.

post #264 of 491
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deryck Griffith View Post

 

I don't understand why everyone makes putting seem so overly complex. 

 

Agree.  I've alluded to this in another thread (I think the long-putter thread), but I rarely practice putting, I think it's overrated, and I'm a fairly competent putter.  I'm good from 4-10 feet or so, average from probably 11-25, but my lag-putting is sometimes okay sometimes horrible.  I think lag putting is probably what suffers the most from lack of practice.  

 

Unless people are competing at an elite or very high level, I agree that some folks complicate it too much.  

post #265 of 491
Quote:
Originally Posted by bplewis24 View Post

 

Agree.  I've alluded to this in another thread (I think the long-putter thread), but I rarely practice putting, I think it's overrated, and I'm a fairly competent putter.  I'm good from 4-10 feet or so, average from probably 11-25, but my lag-putting is sometimes okay sometimes horrible.  I think lag putting is probably what suffers the most from lack of practice.  

 

Unless people are competing at an elite or very high level, I agree that some folks complicate it too much.  

 

It becomes even easier after taking aimpoint

post #266 of 491
Quote:
Originally Posted by bplewis24 View Post

 

Agree.  I've alluded to this in another thread (I think the long-putter thread), but I rarely practice putting, I think it's overrated, and I'm a fairly competent putter.  I'm good from 4-10 feet or so, average from probably 11-25, but my lag-putting is sometimes okay sometimes horrible.  I think lag putting is probably what suffers the most from lack of practice.  

 

Unless people are competing at an elite or very high level, I agree that some folks complicate it too much.  

Brandon, you sound EXACTLY like me.  I'm pretty good from close in, decent from mid-range, and decent to horrendous from long range.  And I practice putting about the same amount as you as well. ;)  When I completely eliminate the wayward full swings that lead to penalty shots and big numbers - OK, that will never happen, obviously, but once they become an anomily - I will focus more of my time on putting.  Until then, I got bigger fish to fry than the occasional 3 putt. :)

post #267 of 491
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post

Simple - It's absolutely critical to boil down the thing you're working on to its most basic state.

 

Specific - "I want to improve my footwork" is not specific. "I want to bank my right foot inward more to prevent my right knee from kicking in towards the golf ball on my downswing" is better.

 

Slow and Short - These two go together and speak to practicing at the edge of your ability. If you're changing the way your right elbow works in transition, you're not going to do this at speed. If you're working on how your wrist hinges from P1 to P2, why swing past P2.5? Just swing to P2 - slowly - and chip the ball.

 

 

 

Cross posted from a thread that Erik started some time ago:

 

As a result, I work on Irons almost exclusively when I am in the garage and on the range. I give drivers and putters only 5% each since they are the least used clubs during a round. With that, I feel (especially today) I am really improving in my mechanics in each session (though I admit I need to take it easy coming from injury).

post #268 of 491

Nice read. What should you practice more out of that 65% of full swing shots. Driving or Iron Shots?

post #269 of 491
Quote:
Originally Posted by RMolloy24 View Post

Nice read. What should you practice more out of that 65% of full swing shots. Driving or Iron Shots?

You mentioned in your other post that you need help with the driver.

post #270 of 491
I know Erik's theory is very sound and I understand his logic here and I believe for a high level player this would make perfect sense.

However if you are like me then most of us probably have glaring weaknesses in our game that we don't wish to admit. Something Erik mentions that needs attention if that is the case.

For me and the amount I play golf I have narrowed down my practice to two things. Irons and chipping.
I find if you can strike an iron off the deck than you can hit all of them its just set up adjustments. Chipping which was a huge problem for me is now a big part of my practice and as I have found little adjustments to ball positions and face angle gives a massive range of shots.

This kind of practice for now will take me up a level until as such time circumstances change for me and I can ascertain where I need to go next. I certainly do agree though that an elite player needs greens in regulation but for those of us less skilled and not very long hitters than our efforts need to be put into other parts of the game.
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