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65/20/15 Practice Ratios: Where to Devote Your Practice Time - Page 17

post #289 of 501

Has anyone broken down the 65-25-10 along the lines of clubs, i.e., of the 65% of time spent on full swing, how much with short irons, mids, longs, woods and driver?  For me, I'm starting to notice that the more I hit longer the clubs, ESPECIALLY my driver, the more the returns diminish.  I usually start with with my GW and work down to my driver after about 15 balls.  The first 10 balls or so I hit with my driver are generally good to great: probably 4 that I would give a lot of money to be able to hit every time I tee'd up, a few that are straight (not perfect because I generally try to play a high draw, but more than acceptable), and a couple blocks and pulls that wouldn't miss a fairway by more than a few yards.  

 

Once I get past 15 or so balls however, the misses get bigger and more frequent, and the good shots get fewer.  With this in mind, I'm considering switching up my practice routine to hit just a few full shots with longer clubs, and spending maybe 50% or more time on my  9i-SW.  

post #290 of 501

Right now, 100% of my practice time is dedicated to my full swing. 

 

My short game is leaps and bounds better than my ball-striking (which isn't saying much), and I play frequently enough that I can keep that up. 

post #291 of 501
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfingdad View Post

Yes!  I can make bogeys all day with poor putting or poor chipping.  It is reallllllly hard to make BIG numbers by hitting a bad pitch shot or a bad lag putt.

 

If I was able to go back and remember every "other" on my cards from the last couple of years, I would bet that 90% (or more) of them were caused by at least one poor full swing.

I disagree somewhat. I think that big numbers on a single hole are easier to achieve with poor full swing shots, but poor or even average pitches/bunker shots/putts sabotage more of my holes than full swing shots. I also think that poor short shots are far more MENTALLY draining unless you have ice water in your veins, which I don't. If you hit a tee shot OB, or into deep trees, etc., you're probably headed for double or worse, it's true. That's usually how one of my rounds blows up - I'll pull hook a long iron into the water or hit a driver into serious trouble and end up having to play sideways, then fumbling my way to a 7 or 8 or worse. One thing about a really poor pitch or bunker shot, though, is that they generally do NOTHING to improve your position. It's almost like taking a penalty stroke. If I pull hook a five iron 30 yards left of the green, I still at least advanced the ball probably between 160 and 190 yards for me, and with a great pitch (which I'm pretty good at) I may save par. Now, if I'm 50 yards away and I chunk a pitch shot, I'm probably now 40 yards away and have done nothing to improve my chances of scoring better. What's 10 yards for a pitch shot? If I shank one, I may have actually worsened my position from the fairway to the rough.

 

Even more frustrating, and far more common, for someone who feels they are now capable of breaking 80 consistently with a little more improvement is a mediocre pitch shot that leaves you 20 feet away instead of 6 feet away. The first is probably a bogey 14 of 15 times, the second one a bogey 7 of 15 times. That's 7 strokes given away to shots that most amateurs would say "nice shot" to when to me they cause my blood to friggin boil. And there's something much more disheartening to me about leaving with an 82 because my short game an putting failed me but my ball striking was pretty darn good, rather than an 82 where my ball striking was bad but I saved lots of ups-and-downs or made some long putts. I actually think that a terrible chip shot that looks so easy from 15 yards but you totally skull it makes my game worse for several holes afterward. Heck I quit playing golf in my early twenties because I couldn't stop shanking chip/pitch shots.

 

Then again, it's like the time Trevino asked Nicklaus why his wedge game wasn't that great. Nicklaus said, "It didn't need to be. I hit the ball onto the fairway, then I hit it on the green." Hence, 65/25/10 makes the most sense to me.

post #292 of 501

To me, putting is the most important club.   You simply can't make up the lost putting stroke where as you can still get a decent score with missed drive, and approach shots.  So, putting is the area that needs the most practice.

 

Next comes the short game.   From my experience, I can still get a decent score even when driver and ball striking fail me.   By getting the final shot closer to hole, I can still get away with par or bogey.   I average 42% fairway hits.   My final score does not correlate much with the FW stat.   I can have a good driving day and end up with a lousy score if my short game, especially putting, sucks.  I've seen too many golfer who can hit 250 yards and their poor short game makes them a high handicapper. 

 

So my practice regimen looks like this.   When I get to the range, I go to putting green and chipping area first.  Then, I will go to range to practice my ball striking.  I spend 65% practicing short game including putting and the rest on ball striking.

post #293 of 501
Quote:
Originally Posted by rkim291968 View Post

To me, putting is the most important club.   You simply can't make up the lost putting stroke where as you can still get a decent score with missed drive, and approach shots.  So, putting is the area that needs the most practice.

 

Next comes the short game.   From my experience, I can still get a decent score even when driver and ball striking fail me.   By getting the final shot closer to hole, I can still get away with par or bogey.   I average 42% fairway hits.   My final score does not correlate much with the FW stat.   I can have a good driving day and end up with a lousy score if my short game, especially putting, sucks.  I've seen too many golfer who can hit 250 yards and their poor short game makes them a high handicapper. 

 

So my practice regimen looks like this.   When I get to the range, I go to putting green and chipping area first.  Then, I will go to range to practice my ball striking.  I spend 65% practicing short game including putting and the rest on ball striking.

 

If they're hitting their drives 250 in the fairway, it's not their short game that's keeping them a high handicap player.  It's their inability to hit a green with a 7 iron in their hand!

post #294 of 501
Quote:
Originally Posted by David in FL View Post

 

If they're hitting their drives 250 in the fairway, it's not their short game that's keeping them a high handicap player.  It's their inability to hit a green with a 7 iron in their hand!

 

Have we played together? a3_biggrin.gif

 

c2_beer.gif

post #295 of 501
Quote:
Originally Posted by David in FL View Post

 

If they're hitting their drives 250 in the fairway, it's not their short game that's keeping them a high handicap player.  It's their inability to hit a green with a 7 iron in their hand!


In such case, sure, he needs to work on iron shots more.   At the end of the day, you are as good as your weakest link on your golf game.   It so happens, my weakest link now is my iron shot (it came suddenly after I hurt my back doing yard work.  I completely lost my swing form).  For the next few weeks/months, I will be spending more time on getting back my iron game.   Once I get it back, I will go back to my practice routine of focusing more on short game.  

post #296 of 501
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rkim291968 View Post

To me, putting is the most important club. You simply can't make up the lost putting stroke where as you can still get a decent score with missed drive, and approach shots.  So, putting is the area that needs the most practice.

 

I disagree, and I've made several posts in this thread that outline why I disagree.

 

Would you rather be on 18 greens in regulation with a 9 handicapper's putting ability (you make some, you three-putt occasionally) or be in random spots around the green in regulation 18 times but with a PGA Tour-level short game AND putting game?

 

Because the stats are very clear on how well you can expect to be able to scramble and putt.

post #297 of 501
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post

 

Would you rather be on 18 greens in regulation with a 9 handicapper's putting ability (you make some, you three-putt occasionally) or be in random spots around the green in regulation 18 times but with a PGA Tour-level short game AND putting game?

 

 

At this point, I will give up my 2nd child to be either one a2_wink.gif.   But if God can grant me just one wish on this, I will take the latter one.  

post #298 of 501
Quote:
Originally Posted by rkim291968 View Post

 

At this point, I will give up my 2nd child to be either one a2_wink.gif.   But if God can grant me just one wish on this, I will take the latter one.  

 

That would be an incredible waste of a wish.  You realize the PGA tour leader in scrambling is at roughly 66%?  That means roughly 12 pars (rounding up) per round if you miss every green but get a PGA tour level short game (the best).  If you take the PGA tour average, it would be more like 10 pars.  

 

If you hit 18 greens in regulation, do you really, truly think you could do worse than 6-8 over?

post #299 of 501
Quote:
Originally Posted by bplewis24 View Post

That would be an incredible waste of a wish.  You realize the PGA tour leader in scrambling is at roughly 66%?  That means roughly 12 pars (rounding up) per round if you miss every green but get a PGA tour level short game (the best).  If you take the PGA tour average, it would be more like 10 pars.  

 

If you hit 18 greens in regulation, do you really, truly think you could do worse than 6-8 over?

Yeah, seriously.  My absolute worst putting days, I'm going to 3 putt perhaps 2 or 3 times.  Granted, that's with only maybe 9 GIR, so let's be real, realllllllllllll conservative here and say that I could 3 putt 5 or 6 times if I hit 18 greens.  That is the most absolutely atrocious putting day I could ever have, and it's still equal to or better than what score you'd expect, on average, from a PGA tour level short game.

 

That guy would, like you said, average somewhere around 78-79, whereas, I believe that if I hit 18 GIR, I'd probably average somewhere very close to even par.

post #300 of 501
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfingdad View Post

Yeah, seriously.  My absolute worst putting days, I'm going to 3 putt perhaps 2 or 3 times.  Granted, that's with only maybe 9 GIR, so let's be real, realllllllllllll conservative here and say that I could 3 putt 5 or 6 times if I hit 18 greens.  That is the most absolutely atrocious putting day I could ever have, and it's still equal to or better than what score you'd expect, on average, from a PGA tour level short game.

 

That guy would, like you said, average somewhere around 78-79, whereas, I believe that if I hit 18 GIR, I'd probably average somewhere very close to even par.

 

I also believe you would give yourself maybe 2-3 more great looks at a birdie.  Recently, I've drained a couple birdie putts in separate rounds that were over 30 feet.  You just get lucky like that sometimes.  But just giving yourself a chance is important.  18 GIR, even if your average proximity is >30 feet, gives you 18 chances at birdie.

 

This nearly motivates me to go to a course sometime, place a ball on every green from outside 30 feet, and see how many putts I end up with. 

post #301 of 501
I see your points. I have a good short game that has been instrumental in getting to 14 handicap. As one makes into say 4, of course, it's all about GIR.
post #302 of 501
Quote:
Originally Posted by rkim291968 View Post

I see your points. I have a good short game that has been instrumental in getting to 14 handicap. As one makes into say 4, of course, it's all about GIR.

 

I actually think it depends on how good you would like to get at the game.  The quickest way to drop a few strokes is probably the short game, but as shown above, it will only get you just so far.  If you want to get close to scratch golf, you had better put the time in to make your long game better.

post #303 of 501
Quote:
Originally Posted by 14ledo81 View Post

 

I actually think it depends on how good you would like to get at the game.  The quickest way to drop a few strokes is probably the short game, but as shown above, it will only get you just so far.  If you want to get close to scratch golf, you had better put the time in to make your long game better.

 

True.   Reading these post, I think I am a stage where I need to work more on my 2nd shot to make the next leap.   I average 32 putts per round now (and once got down to 30 putts/round).   A lot has to do with getting my last shot into green closer to hole, not necessarily b/c I have Steve Stricker/Inbee Park putting skills.  

 

My initial response on putting (no pun intended) more time on short game (including putting) was based on my journey from 35 handicapper to now.   I've seen too many like us get on green in regulation and end up with 3 or 4 putts, or get near green and needing 4 - 5 more strokes to put the ball in the cup. 

post #304 of 501

Thanks, this sounds kinda like my mon - fri routine early morning. 

post #305 of 501

The other day I hit the most greens I've ever hit (15) and had the second best score I've ever had.  The ironic thing I putted like shit.  There is no denying that ball striking rules.

 

We look at the pros and EVERYONE seems to dismiss or blatantly forget that they are ballstriking gods.  That's why they are there and it's their ballstriking that putts them in the positions to make birdies throughout the tournament and down the stretch to win.

post #306 of 501
I haven't read all 11 pages of this thread, so I apologize if this has already been discussed...

In my opinion, a high handicapper looking to improve should definitely skew those ratios more to the short game. They should do this until they can rely on their pitching, chipping, and putts to have a reasonable expectation of getting up and down.

It amazes me how many avid golfers (folks in this forum included - based on what they've said) can usually get somewhere near the green in regulation, but things go bad from there. I am dumbfounded when I play with one of these golfers and they have no clue how to hit a straight-forward 10 yd pitch. While they are preparing for the shot, you just know they'll likely chunck it or hit a low screamer that ends up on the back fringe... In reality, they should have an expectation of getting it within 6'. These are the guys that hit drivers on the range all the time, but you never see at the practice chipping/pitching green.

It wasn't too long ago that I got down to a single digit handicap. But I considered myself a crappy single digit golfer. My typical round would produce 4 or 5 GIR's, and I'd scramble and putt my ass off to salvage pars and bogies. I've since been putting more time into ball striking and am up to around 50% GIRs. My handicap is creeping down as well.

Becoming proficient in the short game can be accomplished in a relatively short time (one golf season, maybe). Becoming proficient in full swing ball-striking can take multiple seasons... I would take the road of skewing Erik's numbers toward the short game. Once you are at a level where you can consistently give yourself a reasonable chance of getting shots inside 50 yds up and down in 2 and you can stroke those 3, 4, and 5 foot putts with confidence, then adopt the 65/25/10 ratios.
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