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65/20/15 Practice Ratios: Where to Devote Your Practice Time - Page 22

post #379 of 479
Quote:
Originally Posted by mvmac View Post
 

 

The numbers don't agree with you.  Missing a six-foot putt is not nearly as damaging to your score as a missed green, and a missed green is not nearly as damaging to your score as a missed tee shot.  

 

 

I'll give it a shot even though I'm not Erik, make sure you spell it with a K ;-)

 

With putting spend time on putts inside of about 6ft, lag putts from long distances  and reading greens (AimPoint).  Spending time on 20ft putts won't do much for your game.  Tour pros make about 14% of their putts from 20ft and it's a length you probably won't three putt from.

Thank you, someone earlier got a bit beligerant with me for saying this.

post #380 of 479

I'm just gonna say, yeah you can say its "putting for dough," but the other part is "hit for show". What are you going to do when you smash a grand drive, right down the pipe of the fairway, and smash a ball on the green for a birdie chance. Two putt for a par every time? Possibly even three putting? 

 

Everything in golf is important, that's why it's so hard to get good, because it takes hours and hours to practice everything. Like Tiger said, "A good drive makes everything possible", but you also need the other half of the game, too.

 

But, I'm still sticking to my opinion, if you are a beginner or trying to get good.. work on your short game FIRST! Once you get good at that, start focusing on the iron play and driver shots. I'm not saying ditch the clubs all around, but for me personally, if I had too choose one main thing to be apart of my game, it'd be short game. However, the reason I work long hours is to be well rounded and have all components of the game.

post #381 of 479
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelzzy View Post

I'm just gonna say, yeah you can say its "putting for dough," but the other part is "hit for show". What are you going to do when you smash a grand drive, right down the pipe of the fairway, and smash a ball on the green for a birdie chance. Two putt for a par every time? Possibly even three putting? 

Everything in golf is important, that's why it's so hard to get good, because it takes hours and hours to practice everything. Like Tiger said, "A good drive makes everything possible", but you also need the other half of the game, too.

But, I'm still sticking to my opinion, if you are a beginner or trying to get good.. work on your short game FIRST! Once you get good at that, start focusing on the iron play and driver shots. I'm not saying ditch the clubs all around, but for me personally, if I had too choose one main thing to be apart of my game, it'd be short game. However, the reason I work long hours is to be well rounded and have all components of the game.

First, putting, chipping, and pitching are the most simple and easiest movements to learn. So they naturally require less time. Second, majority of the time, pros two putt, 61% of the time. Those with the best one putt, have good short games because they get tap ins, so they skew thei putting.

Also would you rather two putt for par or need to one putt for par. What can you get closer, a putt or a chip. All this points to gir, mad proximity to the hole as the leading driver of golf score. The long game.
post #382 of 479
Quote:
Originally Posted by saevel25 View Post


First, putting, chipping, and pitching are the most simple and easiest movements to learn. So they naturally require less time. Second, majority of the time, pros two putt, 61% of the time. Those with the best one putt, have good short games because they get tap ins, so they skew thei putting.

Also would you rather two putt for par or need to one putt for par. What can you get closer, a putt or a chip. All this points to gir, mad proximity to the hole as the leading driver of golf score. The long game.

>putting, chipping, and pitching are the most simple and easiest movements to learn

 

Okay, I'm done with this conversation :)

post #383 of 479
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelzzy View Post
 

I'm just gonna say, yeah you can say its "putting for dough," but the other part is "hit for show". What are you going to do when you smash a grand drive, right down the pipe of the fairway, and smash a ball on the green for a birdie chance. Two putt for a par every time? Possibly even three putting? 

 

That would suck.  Somebody who could do that would only be, like, a low single digit handicap or something.  Blech!

post #384 of 479
Quote:
Originally Posted by bplewis24 View Post
 

 

That would suck.  Somebody who could do that would only be, like, a low single digit handicap or something.  Blech!

Okay, so if these guys devote so much of their time to the range, why don't they shoot in the single digits?

 

Scores add up buddy.. Bogey, par, par, bogey, bogey, etc.. gets you somewhere in the high 80's.. not single digits

post #385 of 479
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelzzy View Post

Okay, so if these guys devote so much of their time to the range, why don't they shoot in the single digits?

Scores add up buddy.. Bogey, par, par, bogey, bogey, etc.. gets you somewhere in the high 80's.. not single digits
Correct. (If you play courses with 20 holes ;)). That pattern over a full round is an 82.

Regardless, you are wrong about this. Saevel is dead on when he says that putting, chipping, and pitching are easy motions to learn. There is no reason to spend a lot of time (talking relatively here) practicing them.

Also, notice that pros all have "swing" coaches. Not golf coaches or teachers, but specifically swing coaches.
post #386 of 479
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelzzy View Post

I'm just gonna say, yeah you can say its "putting for dough," but the other part is "hit for show". What are you going to do when you smash a grand drive, right down the pipe of the fairway, and smash a ball on the green for a birdie chance. Two putt for a par every time? Possibly even three putting? 

It's actually "drive for show." e2_whistling.gif
post #387 of 479
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamo View Post


It's actually "drive for show." e2_whistling.gif

Hell man, I think you could figure out what I meant. 

post #388 of 479
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelzzy View Post
 

What are you going to do when you smash a grand drive, right down the pipe of the fairway, and smash a ball on the green for a birdie chance. Two putt for a par every time? Possibly even three putting? 

 

Be happy?  Guys that hit a lot of fairways and greens are going to shoot good scores.  Even if you're a bad putter.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelzzy View Post
 

>putting, chipping, and pitching are the most simple and easiest movements to learn

 

Okay, I'm done with this conversation :)

 

Compared to the full swing, absolutely.  

 

Seriously answer this question, would you rather take on Tiger in a putting contest or a closest to the pin contest from 175 yards away?

post #389 of 479
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelzzy View Post
 

Everything in golf is important, that's why it's so hard to get good, because it takes hours and hours to practice everything. Like Tiger said, "A good drive makes everything possible", but you also need the other half of the game, too.

Nobody is saying that the short game and putting isn't important. The thread is about where to devote your practice time to maximize your improvement.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelzzy View Post
 

But, I'm still sticking to my opinion, if you are a beginner or trying to get good.. work on your short game FIRST! Once you get good at that, start focusing on the iron play and driver shots. I'm not saying ditch the clubs all around, but for me personally, if I had too choose one main thing to be apart of my game, it'd be short game. However, the reason I work long hours is to be well rounded and have all components of the game.

If a beginner can't make consistent contact with the full swing, how will having a good short game help? Let him get up and down for triple bogey? A beginner, more than anybody else, would benefit the most from greatly improving their long game. In order to do that, they have to devote more time to it, not less.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelzzy View Post
 

Okay, so if these guys devote so much of their time to the range, why don't they shoot in the single digits?

Mostly because they don't know how to practice correctly, but that's another thread.

post #390 of 479
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelzzy View Post
 

What are you going to do when you smash a grand drive, right down the pipe of the fairway, and smash a ball on the green for a birdie chance. Two putt for a par every time? Possibly even three putting?

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mvmac View Post
 

 

Be happy?  Guys that hit a lot of fairways and greens are going to shoot good scores.  Even if you're a bad putter.

 

 

Yeah, I just hate those pesky 2 putt, ho hum pars.......

 

 

Edited to add that I could have used more of those yesterday.  Shot a very pedestrian 79 on a relatively easy, par 71 course.  Chipped/pitched well and made everything I looked at.....including an up and down out of the shrubbery.  Unfortunately, I was IN the shrubbery in the first place, and it seemed, everywhere else but on the green in regulation.  Made for a long, painful day.....


Edited by David in FL - 12/6/13 at 8:17am
post #391 of 479
Quote:
Originally Posted by David in FL View Post
 

 

 

Yeah, I just hate those pesky 2 putt, ho hum pars.......

Me too, 1 putt bogey's are much better, son ; )

post #392 of 479

Its pure math. 

 

If missing the green = 50% of the time you're getting bogey or par. Compare that if you only three putt 11% (2 times) a round. Which means if you hit the green you're only getting bogey 11% of the time. Which one is better for your score. 

 

So you ask yourself, what would you trade, 50% chance  (which isn't that bad of a short game, pros average 58-60%.) for par, or 89% chance for par? 

post #393 of 479
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelzzy View Post
 

Okay, so if these guys devote so much of their time to the range, why don't they shoot in the single digits?

 

Scores add up buddy.. Bogey, par, par, bogey, bogey, etc.. gets you somewhere in the high 80's.. not single digits

 

That is entirely different from the argument you wrote (which I replied to), which was that if a guy could hit a majestic drive and then hit a laser on to the green, but can't make a birdie putt (and also 3 putt once in a while), that is a bad thing.  At least I'm assuming you were saying that is a bad thing.  Realistically, that guy is not shooting a bad score.  

 

However, even that hypothetical golfer (who hits nearly every fairway and green but can't putt worth a damn) actually falls in line with the premise of the original post of this thread.  Remember, the practice ratios have a caveat for a "glaring weakness."  The hypothetically great ball striker but horrible putter would definitely want to devote his time to the short game and putting.  But we need to be practical here.  The 2 handicap who is a "horrible putter" is wholly different from the 15 handicap who is probably just as bad (or good) of a putter as the 2 handicap (maybe 1-2 strokes worse per round?), but drops another 10-12 strokes to the single-digit handicap before he ever gets to the green.  

 

That is essentially the point I'm making: the guy who needs to improve his putting to "putt for dough" is already likely a very good ball striker and can afford to spend more time on the short game.  The guys that you mention who are 15 handicaps are guys who could work on putting for 4 hours per day and still be a 15 handicap until he starts finding a full stroke that allows him to hit more fairways and greens.

 

Do the math on this: assume a person hits 18 GIR and is the worst putter on tour.  What would his score be?  Assume the worst proximity to the hole on tour, and then factor in average 3 putt frequency from there based on the worst golfer.  Maybe add 1-2 strokes to the 18-hole score to normalize it.  What do you come up with?

 

We could actually go further with this, but I have to get back to working for now :-)

post #394 of 479
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
 

I've been working off a theory for awhile now, and I've talked with a lot of people about it. I've charted how much time the average PGA Tour player spends doing things, I've talked with coaches and instructors at all levels. I've talked with good and in some cases great players.

 

Nothing yet has dissuaded me from thinking what I'm about to tell you. If anything, it's firmed up my belief. I'm still leaving the door open to the possibility that what I'm about to say still needs to be tweaked, but I think at worst it's pretty close.

 

What am I talking about? Try this on for size:

 

Unless you have a glaring weakness or a facet of your game which far outshines the others, you should spend 65% of your time practicing the full swing, 25% of your time practicing the short game, and 10% of your time practicing putting.

 

By "full swing" I mean every shot that uses full swing mechanics. This includes all shots over about 100 yards as well as some of the 1/2 and 3/4 that employ full-swing mechanics. By "short game" I mean everything else inside of about 100 yards that isn't putting. And by putting I mean putting. Duh. a1_smile.gif

 

Now, people who have argued against me on this will talk about how "60% of your shots are from within 100 yards of the green." That's great and all, but if you remove short putts from the equation the number drops significantly. Still, the number is around 40% for "short game + putting" and 40% for the full swing, so why have I said 65/25/10?

 

Because working back from the putting green to the tee, putting is simple. It's a relatively easy motion that does not take a lot of time to master. The mechanics are simpler, the requirements simpler, and the ceiling is more severe. If you're making half of your six footers (on bumpier, slower greens than those seen on the PGA Tour), that's all you need to play golf on the PGA Tour, so time spent practicing 20 footers (which are made about 14% on the PGA Tour, so you should expect to make about one in ten) is time better spent doing something else.

 

Moving back farther from the green, a good bit more time can be spent trying not to leave yourself a 20-footer for par, and working on the short game. I say you should practice your short game 2.5 times as much as your putting. Learn a few basic shots - a pitch, a chip, a bunker shot (which is just a variation of the pitch for many), and maybe a specialty shot or three (a bladed wedge from the fringe, a high flop, and a low checking shot). Variations of those will cover virtually every other shot you can imagine, and if you practice a few shots here and there from some odd lies, you'll do just fine.

 

Of course, you'll do even better if you're not having to use your short game for very much - better still to hit the green in regulation. There's a reason they say "two things don't last very long: dogs who chase cars and golfers who putt for pars." That takes us out to full swing range, and statistics show that the long game - driving the ball in play and hitting greens (particularly from longer distances) is absolutely crucial to playing good golf. There's a reason there's a formula out there that approximates your score by taking 95 - (2 x GIR). Hitting greens is the single biggest correlation to scoring well, and the only way to hit greens is to have a full swing that works - twice on average. The full swing is also orders of magnitude more complex and difficult to master than a putting stroke or a pitching motion.

 


 

Now, before everyone gets bent out of shape, note that I'm talking about time spent practicing each of these things, so the numbers aren't quite as slanted as you might think just by looking at "65/25/10." For example, because putting is so simple and because the balls are typically within 20 feet of you, you can hit perhaps four putts per minute. On the short game, because you have to round up some golf balls from farther distances, and take a few more practice strokes to feel the ground, you have to clean your club, etc. you can hit perhaps two balls per minute. On the driving range, I'll often hit balls as slowly as one every four to five minutes, but let's say you're not quite as deliberate or don't use quite as many practice motions as I do, and call it 0.75 balls per minute.

 

Multiplying the balls per minute by the time spent, we get numbers that look like this:

Putting: 10 minutes * 4 balls/minute = 40 balls

Short Game: 25 minutes * 2 balls/minute = 50 balls

Full Swing: 65 minutes * 0.75 balls/minute = 48.75 balls

 

So really, this works out to spending almost an equal amount of time on each of the three sections of the game, with slightly less spent on putting (and, really, this still makes sense because the putting stroke is relatively simple).

 

Note, too, that I'm talking about good practice. I'm not talking about whacking some balls on the green towards some holes and calling it "practice." I'm talking about working on the skills of putting (starting the ball on-line, controlling the distance the ball rolls, and reading greens properly). I'm talking about working on the skills of a good short game with drills - landing balls on targets, taking the same club and varying the height of some shots, one-handed pitching drills, etc. I'm talking about working on drills with the full swing, deliberate, good practice, and not just stepping up and smacking ball after ball during the full swing 65% of your practice time.

 


 

Now, when I talk about this someone will invariably say something like "I practice my short game religiously and my full swing stinks and I still shoot 82 most days!" They'll remember the one round they made everything or chipped close or in a few times and how it "saved" a bad round. To the first guy, consider how good he'd be if he could marry that short game with a long game that didn't lean on it so much. To the second guy, you remember that round because it's an anomaly, and because you hit the ball badly enough that you needed miracle short game shots just to shoot around your typical score!

 

The stats and studies don't lie. I get that a six-foot putt that you miss counts the same as a drive you put into the right rough. But the odds state very plainly that a six-foot putt is not nearly as damaging to your score as a miss green, and a missed green is not nearly as damaging to your score as a missed tee shot.

 

Them's the facts. I haven't shared them with you here, but they're out there, and I encourage you to look them up. Boiled down, they back my theory of the best way to divvy up your practice time:

  • Spend 10% of your practice time working on putting skills.
  • Spend 25% of your practice time working on short game skills.
  • Spend 65% of your practice time working on the full swing skills.

 

What's nifty is that you can do a surprising amount of all of this work at home, in your back yard, on your living room carpet, or with a mirror or wiffle balls.

 

And when you practice, make it dedicated, good practice. Don't just aimlessly whack balls, whether you're on the putting green, the short game area, or on the practice range with a driver in your hands.

Interesting. Just read this, agree with it al, but would bump down swing skills about 15 percent and putting up more.. I don't know, that's just me. I need a lot of work on my driver, but I'll get to hitting it consistently. I think putting saves even the best.. maybe you should switch putting and chipping, as you putt more than you chip. And if you practice ball striking the most, you shouldn't have to chip as much. So maybe like that, but you wrote up a great article and I don't want to pretend like I'm taking away from the thousand word subject you wrote, I liked the read. Good advice.

post #395 of 479
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelzzy View Post
 

Interesting. Just read this, agree with it al, but would bump down swing skills about 15 percent and putting up more.. I don't know, that's just me. I need a lot of work on my driver, but I'll get to hitting it consistently. I think putting saves even the best.. maybe you should switch putting and chipping, as you putt more than you chip. And if you practice ball striking the most, you shouldn't have to chip as much. So maybe like that, but you wrote up a great article and I don't want to pretend like I'm taking away from the thousand word subject you wrote, I liked the read. Good advice.

 

It's not about how much you use those shots or else a PGA Tour pro would devote 15-20% of his time to tapping in from two feet. It's a combination of how often you use them, how important they are, and how difficult they are to do. The short game presents varied lies, so even if you only have one short game stroke you'll have to know how the ball will react out of various lies.

post #396 of 479

Loving this thread.Interested no one really talking about practising specific to their home course and prevailing conditions....I play on a firm fast right! on the water links all year round and the wind is a massive factor in scoring opportunities and also helps to keep the greens quick and challenging particularly from above the hole!!.As a result I have plenty of practice on and around the greens as they can be nigh on impossible to stay on if you do hit them so scrambling skills a must!! flipside of course is my driving which is erratic and sometimes not best strategy to take big dog as wind makes any high ball flighted shot very risky indeed!

End result is I'm a single figure guy from 150 yds in where all my work is done and mid teens guy off tee where shot options leave me trying to manufacture a result rather than boom one for position....id love to be a better driver of ball but love the feeling of snaking in a 15footer to break hearts even more!! 

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