or Connect
TheSandTrap.com › Golf Forum › The Practice Range › Swing Thoughts › 65/20/15 Practice Ratios: Where to Devote Your Practice Time
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

65/20/15 Practice Ratios: Where to Devote Your Practice Time - Page 6

post #91 of 491
Quote:
Originally Posted by x129 View Post

The point was that the strokes I can save are very limited . I coud spend 1000 hours practicing my bunker play and the most I can hope to save is 2 shots. Or the same as one OOB shot. As a high-mid handicapper, it isn't a place where I am losing strokes. I would be better off spending that time on the driver or putting.  I still put in sand time but not a lot. If I am still at the 15' mark when I am shooting in the 70s, then yeah it will get more focus. But right now it isn't worth the time. Now if I had infinite practice time......

I said 'some', not a 1000 hours, but I understand what you mean. As a 15 and hopefully trending downward, knocking another stroke or two off your HC will start to become a big deal soon, and sand practice is something a lot of people ignore completely, though you've made it clear you don't.

I've already said I generally agree with the OP, but I also see some pretty miserable short games (lots of three jacks, never seem to get it up and down) from high 80's, low 90's shooters that could gain benefit from more time spent around the green. Addressing one's weak spots would seem to be the order of the day for most people, whether that's improving driver/iron play for more GIRs or whatever.
post #92 of 491

If you want to improve your time in the Marathon, is running a Marathon (or two) everyday the best way to do it?  

 

For me, golf has some similarities.  Sometimes I feel that when I hit too many long clubs in a row at the range that I start swinging too hard and start too lose my tempo.  Even if I am trying to work on my driving, I think it makes sense for me to mix in some shorter/easier swings at the range to keep my tempo good.  Another issue that I have is not getting the proper shaft lean- again, I find it easier to work on this with the shorter clubs.    

post #93 of 491
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MEfree View Post

If you want to improve your time in the Marathon, is running a Marathon (or two) everyday the best way to do it?

 

That's not the same thing at all.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MEfree View Post

For me, golf has some similarities.  Sometimes I feel that when I hit too many long clubs in a row at the range that I start swinging too hard and start too lose my tempo.  Even if I am trying to work on my driving, I think it makes sense for me to mix in some shorter/easier swings at the range to keep my tempo good.  Another issue that I have is not getting the proper shaft lean- again, I find it easier to work on this with the shorter clubs.    

 

That's sounds like it's not practice. That's just hitting balls.

 

 

I forget what my estimate was above, but oftentimes, when I'm practicing, I'm hitting one ball every two to three minutes.

post #94 of 491
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post

I forget what my estimate was above, but oftentimes, when I'm practicing, I'm hitting one ball every two to three minutes.
What do you do in between? If you do anything. Practice swings, slow swings, trying to find feelings?
post #95 of 491
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeph View Post

What do you do in between? If you do anything. Practice swings, slow swings, trying to find feelings?

 

Look at the camera to see how the feel was in reality. Practice swings. Slow swings. Exaggerations to find feelings, yes. Lots of rehearsal stuff. I'm practicing a lot without a camera lately, and it's still 2 minutes or so between balls.

post #96 of 491

I think it's fair to say that everyone needs different amount of practice in different areas at different points in their game - or even on different days.

 

If I had 12 GIR (as per Saeve) - that would be way better than my normal round, for instance.  14 GIR would equal the top producers among PGA pros - http://www.pgatour.com/r/stats/info/?190

 

Today, I had a bad day and only hit 4 or 5 fairways - so currently I need to practice tee shots/driving accuracy and get back in the groove. But the thing is - tomorrow it will be completely different/better even if I don't practice at all because this wasn't my normal round.  Still, lots of practice would help improve my consistency in that area - 

 

Today I had to hit a low hook to get one ball back in position from in the trees.  A shot like that requires a lot of skill and technique that one rarely sees people practicing on the range.  And what are the percentages that trying it causes even more trouble?  Even specialty shots need practice.

 

On putts - very very very few putts are tap ins unless you are constantly barely missing a first putt from 10-15 feet and never misread speed.  An LPGA tour player recently gave a tournament away after missing a 1 footer.

 

Practice 3, 4, 5, 6 footers?  Yes.  And missing those (for me) is unacceptable.  I'll practice 100s of putts in that range in a single session.  More than any other length shot.  Not just practice - but DRILLS.  IMHO - Getting those 3-6 footers down and solid is the single most important key to ever shooting a low score (for me).  You can hit a poor drive, miss the green, then a decent recovery - but if you can't close the deal then you're going to be racking up bogeys or worse really quickly.  

post #97 of 491

I have changed up my practice sessions a little, so I figured I'd post again. I've gotten back into golf after being out for a few years, and have had to get things back to normal again. It's taken me a couple of months, but I am getting consistent again due to practice.

 

My daughter has been going to the 1st Tee lessons every Saturday, so I use that time for my practice sessions to.

 

I will usually start off in the chipping area. I'll take the bucket of balls and drop them at random locations around the green area and try different shots to get them as close to the hole as I can.

 

After that I will go to the putting area and do some work there for 20 to 30 minutes, depending on how long I spent at the chipping area.

 

Finally I will go to the driving area. I'll start off there with a sand wedge. I'll pick a target between 40 & 80 yrds, and go for that. Then I move up to an 8 iron, then a 5 iron, then a 5 wood. I finish my session with my Driver.

 

I take breaks here and there while on the range, and I will go check on my daughter, who is usually just a few lanes away. Main reason I have to step away is my foot, broke it a few years ago and that's why I had to stop playing. After several swings at the range it starts to hurt quite a bit. So I walk it off for a few, then I am fine to go back. Doesn't give me issues at the chipping or putting areas, or on the course. Just when I am doing several full swings right after the other.

 

I am pretty good with my Driver and Woods, so I don't spend as much time on them. When I played a few years ago, I spent most of my time with my Driver and Woods, and I think that was a big mistake. My short game is what was always lacking, so that is what I work on the most now. My putting still isn't were it used to be, but it is getting better. I am also tending to put the ball closer to the hole now so I am eliminating those long putts that I have problems with.

 

After her lesson we usually play a round together. After about another month of this, I am going to take a couple of lessons, and then do it all over again. The Wife got me 2 private lessons for our anniversary.

 

I think getting my daughter into Golf was one of the best things I have done in a while. I really enjoy playing with her, and she enjoys it to. I no longer have to justify any of my golf purchases to her, as a matter of fact she will see something and ask if I could use it now. I get to play gold at least once a week, and go to all these courses that I have always wanted to. We even just booked a vacation were my Daughter and I get to play a round of golf every morning while we are gone.

post #98 of 491

 Good day folks, how many hours per week should the average golfer with a 9-5 job try to get in at the range?

 

 I usually use my tuesday afternoons to do short game and putting practice, but i was wondering if a stricter  

 regime is required to reach single digit HC.

post #99 of 491
Quote:
Originally Posted by TriniGolfer85 View Post

 Good day folks, how many hours per week should the average golfer with a 9-5 job try to get in at the range?

 

 I usually use my tuesday afternoons to do short game and putting practice, but i was wondering if a stricter  

 regime is required to reach single digit HC.

It really depends on a lot of factors including if you have family, other interests and how much golfing talent you have.

 

Assuming you are a 24 index and have played once or twice on the weekends for a number of years, then I think that you will need to practice more than just Tuesday afternoons to get to a single digit HC.  Also remember that not all practice is create equal- the saying shouldn`t be practice makes perfect, but rather PERFECT practice makes perfect (or practice makes permanent).  

 

If I was in your boat looking to get down to a single digit, I`d try to determine if I had some major swing flaws that need to be corrected and then work on both short and long game Tuesdays and Thursdays.  You very well could benefit from some lessons if you have a good pro near you and are willing to put in some work.

 

Depending on what sort of physical condition you are in, you could also try incorporating some non-golf course work 2-3 days per week.  I think as little as 15-20 minute work-outs can make a big difference compared to someone who does nothing.

post #100 of 491

Having just joined this forum, I have to say I have learned the most from this post (and from finding references to the "Talent Code").  As a 24 handicap I have long been frustrated with how GOOD my short game is.  I get up and down with the same frequency as players much better than myself. (As an example, I couple weeks ago in a tournament I left my self short sided in some fluffy grass hitting to an elevated green.  I hit a flop shot with my sandwedge to about 3 feet and tapped in for par.  One of the course pros had been watching from the clubhouse and jokingly said I must be as sandbagger, because 20 plus handicappers don't hit that shot, I told him if he could teach me to get to the green I'd be a great player, but the real point is that I didn't get lucky on that shot I saw the shot I wanted to hit, and executed it perfectly)  I average between 1.70 and 1.75 putts per round (this has been constant for about 2 years now), and on occasion I have some really great rounds.  But, for the most part my scores stay about the same.  I put in a lot of time practicing, but again the scores stay the same.  Why?  After finding this forum and by working with an instructor, I wound say the reason is, that even though I am getting up and down more than my fair share of the time, I am doing it for bogey or worse (sometimes much worse).  We have deduced that I am losing the most strokes on my approach shots from the fairway.  I now spend around 65% of time working on my ball striking, and I have started to see some dividends from that.  The changes are slow, but they are coming, and for the first time I feel like I have a real plan for improving my game.  I used to do the reverse, I felt like I   was enlightened because I would spend about 70% of my time on the short game and the rest on my ball striking, and while I certainly believe that helped me create the short game I have now, what good does it do me if I am getting up and down for a 7 or 8?  For me I think that the most salient point of this post is to be  honest with yourself and find what parts of your game are weakest and formulate a plan to start correcting them.  For me that is working on my ball striking. 
 

 

Thanks,

Ryan

post #101 of 491
Quote:
Originally Posted by saevel25 View Post

Thats a good point, you really want to practice the shots that have the most.

 

If you shoot even par, your looking at

 

14 drives

22 approach shots, assuming lay up on par 5's

If you hit the average 12 greens, then your looking at 6 short game shots.

Thats 42 shots

For par, your looking at 30 putts..

 

So roughly,

Driving: 20%

Approach: 31%

Short Game: 8%

Putting: 41%

 

But really you can put driving and approach in the same category because there full swings. thats 51%

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post

 

Right. Good post. I just wanted to add this re: the 41% putting:

 

Nor can you practice your putting 41% of the time because 18 times a round (or 16 or so), you're just tapping in, so what, you're gonna spend 20% of ALL of your practice time hitting tap-ins? No.

 

In other words (as you said saevel), you can't just look at "what percentage of your shots are of a certain type" because, like I said, putting is simple, and if you followed that rule to the law you'd spend 20% of your practice time working on your tap-ins.

 

Good post saevel.

 

Just cause I'm a numbers nerd.  The vast majority of us here aren't shooting par.  Say your most common day score is 85, with 33 putts, including 2 drained outside of tap-in range and 16 tap ins, and 7 GIR.  Say your average 85 comes from one tee shot OB and 3 tee shots that require recovery chips/punches back out onto the fairway,

 

So if you assume you're not a long hitter or play courses with generally long par fives where your 3rd shot is long enough that we can call it a "full" shot, then you're taking 37 full strokes per round.  You miss 11 greens, so that's 11 short game shots around the green, plus the 3 recovery shots back onto the fairway makes 14 total short game shots.

 

But to decide how much we should practice each shot, we shouldn't consider all 85, because as Erik said, 16 of those are tap ins, and it's retarded to spend 19% of your practice time practicing putts under 18 inches.  So our denominator changes, and we're only really talking about 68 shots (remember the one OB penalty stroke).  Then:

 

 

Full shots:    37/68 = 54.5%
Short Game: 14/68 = 20.5%
Putts:           17/68 = 25%
 
You can argue about the relative return on investment for different kinds of players for these three categories, but I'd say it's pretty much a fact that overall difficulty of mastering all aspects of these three categories is (1) full shots, (2) short game, including everything from fringe chips to shots inside, say, 50 yards, (3) putting.  So if you're aiming to be good in all three categories and aren't naturally much worse at one of them than the others, you want to upweight full shots and short game shots in practice time relative to putting.  Take 10% of the time from putts to full shots, since they're most difficult to master and require the most work, and are the most common, and 5% of time from putts to short game, since they're more difficult than putts but not as hard as full shots overall and you don't need to hit them as often as full shots.  Voila, you've exactly got Erik's 65/25/10.
 
Obviously exact weightings and the player's specific struggles come into play, as well as goals (if you're not very talented and don't have hours each day to overcome your lack of natural ability with full shots but really enjoy playing and would like to shoot the best scores possible given your constraints, maybe you practice putting and short game more cause you just accept that your full shots are never going to get great, so you just want to make up as many shots as possible around the green).  But if you have decent practice time available and decent skill and your long term goal is to become a good to excellent amateur, you're going to come up with practice time percentages somewhere pretty darn close to 65/25/10.
post #102 of 491

Interest discussion guys.  I was about a 13 index but have been away from the game for a few years due to financial reasons and just recently got back into it and am currently a 22.  I have developed a simple way too keep stats that I think accurately depicts where I'm losing strokes.

 

Driving:  Point system seen here: http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-instruction/mental-game/sanders_gd0809

 

Total Greens:  This is a variable that will be used later and is equal to 18 less the number of holes where my driving points were 2 or more.  E.g. if I went OB off the tee then I'd mark down 4 point for driving on that hole.  Obviously, I am not going to get a GIR, but this is a fault of my driving not iron play.

 

Iron/FW Play: I simply figure each missed GIR costs me 0.5 strokes.  (Somewhat arbitrary I know, but I don't think it's a bad approximation.)  So strokes lost to Iron Play = ( Total Greens - GIR ) / 2

 

Chipping: If a chip comes to rest within 6' (two paces) I give myself a check, if not I mark down an "X".  Then I take the total number of "X's" and divide by two, i.e. each poor chip cost me 0.5 strokes.  I attribute half a stroke to the missed green, because that's the reason I'm chipping in the first place as seen above.

 

Sand:  Same as chipping.

 

Putting:  Strokes lost to poor putting = Total putts - [ 2 * GIR + ( Total Greens - GIR ) + X's / 2 ]... X's are from both chipping and sand.  The logic here is that for each green I hit I should have two putts, 2 * GIR, for each green I miss I should 1 putt, 18 - GIR.  If I miss the green and hit a poor chip stroke will manifest from Iron Play and Chipping (or Sand).  I also expect to 2-putt each time I hit a poor chip or sand shot, X's/2.  The difference between the sum of these and my total putts were how many strokes were due to poor putting.  (I recognize this one is kinda confusing.)

 

This system is not perfect, but if you sum all these up and then add that to par to get a theoretical score it will usually be with a stroke or two from my experience.  As an example I shot a 96 yesterday and lost 7 stroke from off the tee, 5 stroke from Iron Play, 4.5 strokes from chipping, 1 stroke from sand and 10 strokes from putting according to this system.  The course is a rinky dink par 68 that's within a few miles of my house.  (It's actually not a bad course, just irritating have 3 par-3's on each side.)  So the formula's tell me I should've shot a 95.5, but actually shot a 96. 

 

Anywho, this may help YOU determine where YOU should spend time practicing.  Me? 12 strokes from full swing (Driving and Iron Play) and 15.5 stokes from short game base on the last round.

post #103 of 491
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DojoKun View Post

Anywho, this may help YOU determine where YOU should spend time practicing.  Me? 12 strokes from full swing (Driving and Iron Play) and 15.5 stokes from short game base on the last round.

 

One of the points I've made is that it's going to be relatively easy - you won't have to spend much time (35%) to save strokes in the 15.5 area, but shaving strokes off the 12 will require more effort. Hence the 65% weight given to that.

post #104 of 491
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post

I've been working off a theory for awhile now, and I've talked with a lot of people about it. I've charted how much time the average PGA Tour player spends doing things, I've talked with coaches and instructors at all levels. I've talked with good and in some cases great players.

 

Nothing yet has dissuaded me from thinking what I'm about to tell you. If anything, it's firmed up my belief. I'm still leaving the door open to the possibility that what I'm about to say still needs to be tweaked, but I think at worst it's pretty close.

 

What am I talking about? Try this on for size:

 

Unless you have a glaring weakness or a facet of your game which far outshines the others, you should spend 65% of your time practicing the full swing, 25% of your time practicing the short game, and 10% of your time practicing putting.

 

By "full swing" I mean every shot that uses full swing mechanics. This includes all shots over about 100 yards as well as some of the 1/2 and 3/4 that employ full-swing mechanics. By "short game" I mean everything else inside of about 100 yards that isn't putting. And by putting I mean putting. Duh. a1_smile.gif

 

Now, people who have argued against me on this will talk about how "60% of your shots are from within 100 yards of the green." That's great and all, but if you remove short putts from the equation the number drops significantly. Still, the number is around 40% for "short game + putting" and 40% for the full swing, so why have I said 65/25/10?

 

Because working back from the putting green to the tee, putting is simple. It's a relatively easy motion that does not take a lot of time to master. The mechanics are simpler, the requirements simpler, and the ceiling is more severe. If you're making half of your six footers (on bumpier, slower greens than those seen on the PGA Tour), that's all you need to play golf on the PGA Tour, so time spent practicing 20 footers (which are made about 14% on the PGA Tour, so you should expect to make about one in ten) is time better spent doing something else.

 

Moving back farther from the green, a good bit more time can be spent trying not to leave yourself a 20-footer for par, and working on the short game. I say you should practice your short game 2.5 times as much as your putting. Learn a few basic shots - a pitch, a chip, a bunker shot (which is just a variation of the pitch for many), and maybe a specialty shot or three (a bladed wedge from the fringe, a high flop, and a low checking shot). Variations of those will cover virtually every other shot you can imagine, and if you practice a few shots here and there from some odd lies, you'll do just fine.

 

Of course, you'll do even better if you're not having to use your short game for very much - better still to hit the green in regulation. There's a reason they say "two things don't last very long: dogs who chase cars and golfers who putt for pars." That takes us out to full swing range, and statistics show that the long game - driving the ball in play and hitting greens (particularly from longer distances) is absolutely crucial to playing good golf. There's a reason there's a formula out there that approximates your score by taking 95 - (2 x GIR). Hitting greens is the single biggest correlation to scoring well, and the only way to hit greens is to have a full swing that works - twice on average. The full swing is also orders of magnitude more complex and difficult to master than a putting stroke or a pitching motion.

 


 

Now, before everyone gets bent out of shape, note that I'm talking about time spent practicing each of these things, so the numbers aren't quite as slanted as you might think just by looking at "65/25/10." For example, because putting is so simple and because the balls are typically within 20 feet of you, you can hit perhaps four putts per minute. On the short game, because you have to round up some golf balls from farther distances, and take a few more practice strokes to feel the ground, you have to clean your club, etc. you can hit perhaps two balls per minute. On the driving range, I'll often hit balls as slowly as one every four to five minutes, but let's say you're not quite as deliberate or don't use quite as many practice motions as I do, and call it 0.75 balls per minute.

 

Multiplying the balls per minute by the time spent, we get numbers that look like this:

Putting: 10 minutes * 4 balls/minute = 40 balls

Short Game: 25 minutes * 2 balls/minute = 50 balls

Full Swing: 65 minutes * 0.75 balls/minute = 48.75 balls

 

So really, this works out to spending almost an equal amount of time on each of the three sections of the game, with slightly less spent on putting (and, really, this still makes sense because the putting stroke is relatively simple).

 

Note, too, that I'm talking about good practice. I'm not talking about whacking some balls on the green towards some holes and calling it "practice." I'm talking about working on the skills of putting (starting the ball on-line, controlling the distance the ball rolls, and reading greens properly). I'm talking about working on the skills of a good short game with drills - landing balls on targets, taking the same club and varying the height of some shots, one-handed pitching drills, etc. I'm talking about working on drills with the full swing, deliberate, good practice, and not just stepping up and smacking ball after ball during the full swing 65% of your practice time.

 


 

Now, when I talk about this someone will invariably say something like "I practice my short game religiously and my full swing stinks and I still shoot 82 most days!" They'll remember the one round they made everything or chipped close or in a few times and how it "saved" a bad round. To the first guy, consider how good he'd be if he could marry that short game with a long game that didn't lean on it so much. To the second guy, you remember that round because it's an anomaly, and because you hit the ball badly enough that you needed miracle short game shots just to shoot around your typical score!

 

The stats and studies don't lie. I get that a six-foot putt that you miss counts the same as a drive you put into the right rough. But the odds state very plainly that a six-foot putt is not nearly as damaging to your score as a miss green, and a missed green is not nearly as damaging to your score as a missed tee shot.

 

Them's the facts. I haven't shared them with you here, but they're out there, and I encourage you to look them up. Boiled down, they back my theory of the best way to divvy up your practice time:

  • Spend 10% of your practice time working on putting skills.
  • Spend 25% of your practice time working on short game skills.
  • Spend 65% of your practice time working on the full swing skills.

 

What's nifty is that you can do a surprising amount of all of this work at home, in your back yard, on your living room carpet, or with a mirror or wiffle balls.

 

And when you practice, make it dedicated, good practice. Don't just aimlessly whack balls, whether you're on the putting green, the short game area, or on the practice range with a driver in your hands.

Meh...I have to disagree with you on this one.  As long as your full-swing isnt a glaring weakness, you arent going to improve much by focusing more on your full swing because what seperates good players from great players is their short game and putting.

post #105 of 491

10% definitely goes to putting. Its just such a hard thing to master and especially being a regular joe that loves golf, if I can sink 75% of my putts from within 6 feet, I'm pretty stoked.

 

25% would have to be a combination of driver and about 100 yards and in.

 

65% is anything from 3 wood to pitching wedge and generally long irons as, for me at least in my own opinion, I'm pretty good from about 200 yards and under.

post #106 of 491
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GaijinGolfer View Post

Meh...I have to disagree with you on this one.  As long as your full-swing isnt a glaring weakness, you arent going to improve much by focusing more on your full swing because what seperates good players from great players is their short game and putting.

 

Statistics and study prove otherwise.

 

GIR matters more than short game and putting. I'll take an average putter who hits every GIR over a guy who is top 20 in putting and short game but who misses more GIR than anyone every day and twice on Sunday.

post #107 of 491
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post

 

Statistics and study prove otherwise.

 

GIR matters more than short game and putting. I'll take an average putter who hits every GIR over a guy who is top 20 in putting and short game but who misses more GIR than anyone every day and twice on Sunday.

Sorry, Im still not buying it.  If most pros practiced this way and more teaching professionals taught this I might be more inclined but youre the first person Ive heard who preaches about practicing tee to green.  Most teach the exact opposite.

post #108 of 491
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GaijinGolfer View Post

Sorry, Im still not buying it.  If most pros practiced this way and more teaching professionals taught this I might be more inclined but youre the first person Ive heard who preaches about practicing tee to green.  Most teach the exact opposite.

 

No they don't. Most give a lot more full swing lessons than short game or putting lessons*. It's not even close. And watch a PGA Tour player practice. Lots of time spent on the range, considerably less elsewhere.

 

Those teaching professionals might SAY practicing your short game is the fastest way to shave strokes - but I agree with that. It's easy to improve quickly at the short game (and then to maintain it). You put in your 35% time there, and suddenly your full swing becomes the "glaring weakness" you talked about a few posts up.

 

 

* (Click to show)

Mostly because that's what people want, but very, very few instructors mandate that their students spend a good chunk of time on their short game. In fact we've done so with our students, have told them "let's get a short game lesson in there." I've posted several videos recently on pitching and chipping. It's a really simple part of the game. Learning it and maintaining it doesn't take much time.

New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Swing Thoughts
TheSandTrap.com › Golf Forum › The Practice Range › Swing Thoughts › 65/20/15 Practice Ratios: Where to Devote Your Practice Time