65/25/10 Practice Ratios: Where to Devote Your Practice Time - Page 8

Quote:

Originally Posted by OCEANDJJACK 

The full swing is easy.  It is the teaching methods that are difficult to employ.  If you stop using the current full swing models being marketed, you will perhaps open your eyes and look elsewhere for alternative swing models.  Even the pros get confused by their own theories.  It seems that every generation comes up with something different.  During Hogan's time, his swing was very flat by today's standards.  Nicklaus swing was much more upright.  Do you remember the reverse "C"  finish of Johnny Miller?  You don't see that anymore.  Do you remember Payne Stewart?  His swing was very classical, not unlike the swing of Sam Snead.

 

 My point is, there is more than one way to teach or learn the full swing. Trying to copy by diagram, how the pros do it, will not help you.  Once you learn an easier approach, you will definitely spend tons less time on your full swing.  It is the easiest part of the game.  Chipping and putting separate the winners from the losers.  All the rest is the easy stuff.  Driving is not that difficult if you don't try to hit the ball 380 yards every time.  I use the same exact swing for my short irons, long irons, fairway woods, and driver.  If you use a method that makes you hit down for the irons, sweep for the diver, and have different ball positions for each and every iron, then you will be more inconsistent, in my opinion.  This is just making the game more difficult than it has to be, in my opinion.

 

 Using the legs very actively in the golf swing is a relatively new idea.  During the playing days of Lord Byron Nelson, no one then considered using the legs for more power.  Then there came the big muscle swing craze. How about firing the right side?  Jimmy Ballard's brainchild.  My point is that ideas come and go.  Some are better than others.  Some are much easier to employ than others.  Did you ever read the Square to Square Method golf book?  That was the book my father used to learn how to play.  He hit his drives further, and straighter than any of his non-professional buddies.  There is much to explore in the golfing literature.  Open your mind, do your research, not just the current thinking.  

Dont forget stack and tilt.  It was very popular for a while and now its kind of fallen by the wayside.

I don't care to read the nonsense of the other posts.  I stand by my comments.  The game should be learned from the putting green, then to chipping, to iron play, and lastly the driver.  I can play a round without my driver and will not suffer the worst for it, unless playing on a championship length course.  You can drive 380, but if you miss the 3 footer, then what was the point.  Case closed!

Quote:

Originally Posted by OCEANDJJACK 

I don't care to read the nonsense of the other posts.  I stand by my comments.  The game should be learned from the putting green, then to chipping, to iron play, and lastly the driver.  I can play a round without my driver and will not suffer the worst for it, unless playing on a championship length course.  You can drive 380, but if you miss the 3 footer, then what was the point.  Case closed!

Conversely, you can make a 25' putt, but if it took you 7 shots to get there, then what was the point?

OH SNAP!!!! 

What people don't get its, A STROKE IS A STROKE, no matter were you waist it. If you miss a putt, then make a birdie the next hole, you can make the same score as a guy who had two pars. Doesn't matter. The truth of the matter is, if you hit more greens you have more opportunity to make putts. If you make better contact, you will miss shots in better spots and have easier up and downs. Imagine if you just miss the green than missing the green by 20 yards. Which shot is easier, a simple chip shot, or a 20 yard pitch shot. 

The long game benefits the short game and putting. Putting does not support the long game. Short game does not support the long game, because the shot happens after the fact. It migth give you confidence, because you know you can get up and down, but that is a slight psychological edge. In reality, If you hit a green, you have a substantially better chance of making par. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas 

 

The fact that most golfers don't take lessons speaks to the opposite. They're NOT getting instruction and find the full swing to be pretty difficult, Patrick.

 

D'oh! 

<facepalm>

I agree with your progression of how to learn the game, but I think that spending less time on the full swing than putting will never be a score-maximizing ratio other than in the early stages of a golfer's development who doesn't have ambitions of being an expert. You're right - if you play 6500 yard courses and want to maintain a 5-15 handicap forever, you can learn a easy, effortless full swing to hit the ball short and straight and make up for it with superior short game skills and especially putting. However, when you want to play serious golf these days, more power is required to get those GIRs up, which will lead to more scoring.  These leads to trying to employ sports science and kinesiology to develop a more powerful, empirically superior swing. Comparing pros to amateurs is a bit unfair in this thread, as I don;t have 40 hours a week to work on my game. 8 a week (not including the weekend round) after work and family duties is a lot for me. If I only dedicated an hour a week to the full swing, 2-3 to short game, and 4 to putting, I truly think getting to a scratch handicap, which is my goal, would take a long, long time, if ever, playing on 7000+ yard courses. Even pro golfers who spend 4-6 hours a week on putting with a personal coach, laser aimers, $400 putters, etc. average about 26 putts a round, and I'm around 31 right now. I know I lose a heck of a lot more than 5 strokes on my tee shots/approaches. I've only been playing seriously for under 2 years, but the first I spent learning almost only short game and putting. I agree that those skills don't erode as easily, as I practice them much less now and they're still passably sharp. I've found mastering a full swing much more difficult, though, and maintaining it a nightmare, even though I only go 3/4 back and put a premium on accuracy. This is a former college baseball pitcher who could throw 90 mph and hit a baseball 450 feet talking. Anyway, only when I'm at scratch and need to get my putts-per-GIR down by 5% and scrambling from like 65% to 68% could I see endeavoring on another all-out putting/short game upgrade that overshadows my need to keep the full swing sharp. I think the 65-25-10 ratio is pretty solid, though I've said that I think at first it should be more like 20-40-40 until the latter two become solid. I hope this approach will serve me well for a long time as I improve, but what do I know...

When I first read this article what it said went against everything I was taught when I first picked up a club which was, "putting is where the score is made" and "short game is where it's at", or something relative to these statements. Since the initial posting of this article I've played 10, 18 hole rounds. Looking back on them I see 1 glaring detail; I rely WAY too much on my short game (100yds and in, especially around the green) To be really honest, my ratios have been 90% short game and 10% full swing (9 iron - driver). I've always had a sort of knack for putting, my down fall with putting is that I get quick and misread the green. The last 3 - 4 rounds I've come to the revelation that the 65/25/10 is what I need. I get too "worn out" when I have to put all the pressure of a hole on 1 facet (short game). Starting today I'm gonna start the 65/25/10 practice routine. I'm a believer......

practice with the driver, wedge, putter in that order. i don't care how great of a putter you are, if you can't stay in-bounds or out of the trees, you aren't going to score well. and if you can't get the ball with-in 3 feet from around the green with regular consistency, you are putting a lot of pressure on your putter. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas 

That's another thing, too: a guy who is reasonably in control of his long game can limit his misses somewhat, so he isn't leaving himself difficult short-game situations.

Back about 1998, I took a short-game lesson, and have been fairly decent in-close since then.

What has hurt my game has been the longer clubs. A couple of driver and FWs OB per round, and I don't break 90. (I've reworked swing toward StackNTilt the last two seasons, but I'm still not there, as my HDCP indicates)

I feel getting consistency in the full swing is the best way for me to "break through" to lower scores.

As I tell stubborn beginners who won't take lessons, after chipping and putting, the most important thing is landing your tee shot in the fairway. Golf is a lot easier when you hit your approach shot from the short grass.

I don't track to time spent on each area but I would say I am practicing putting more than 10% now because I suck at it and I'm trying to get better. Three putting greens drives me up a wall, I probably three putt 6 to 7 time per round. For me that is the difference between shooting in the low 90s and the high 80s. My long game is good, I use a 3w off the tee most times, only going to the driver if I have a wide fairway. I would say I am at 50/30/20, maybe from reading the above I will change that around. I'm also going to a pro to tune my game up, I need the help.

I personally think practice/warmups should resemble real life rounds.

35/40% on putting, but almost every shot different, mostly 12 to 30 foot lags a few mid range and a few long range

Just like a real round

Then have bunker/pitches/chips about 10%

Then split the full shots between short irons, mid-long irons-fairways , drivers

So you end up more like

driver 20% range time

mid-long irons and hybrids fairway 15%

short irons 15%

bunker/pitch/chips 10%

putting 40%

If you shoot scratch or plus

72 shots

40% putts (29 average)

20% drivers  12/14 round

10% scrambles (6-7 chips/pitches/bunkers)

30% irons/hybrids/fairways

So when you hit 11 or 12 of 18 greens in reg you have 6 to 7 scrambling shots, bunkers, pitches and chips

You usually have 14 driving holes and often layup 1 or 2

You average just under or just over 30 putts per round

The rest are irons/hybrids and fairway shots

I've been practicing that way for decades and I've found that if stronger handicapped players adopt a similar warmup/practice routine they usually end up much more consistent in scoring and usually drop strokes

In any round you will have close to 40% of your strokes on putting and most people practice putting wrong

I see almost every guy including pros grinding over 3-5 footers

The less 3-5 putts I have to make the better

I want to practice rolling 12 to 30 footers before a round, so I have tap ins all day

Great lags is what gives you a stress free round

If you can't roll it for tap ins, you better make 3-5 footers

But by practicing 3-5 footers over and over seems to be setting yourself up for defeat

Oh I'm gonna have a ton of 3-5 footers today, I better practice them

You can take off 5 years from golf and come back and still make 3-5 footers

LOL

Take off 5 days and your lag putting suffers

Lags from 12 to 30 feet is the key to easy rounds

Ball striking great on any given day lets you have birdies within 12 feet and reaching par 5's in 2 and having baby wedges if not in 2 is where you score most birdies and or almost all eagles

But not getting the roll down before a round is why guys never learn to go 'low'

When you are a ball striker and rolling it, you go low

You got to put it in the hole to score

So putting is very important, but I'm not a grinder over 3-5 foot putts

I focus my putting practice to rolling birdie length putts because that's what I face all days usually in a round

So that's what I want to do as well as I can

Roll those 12 to 30 footers in the hole and make birdies or just miss and have tap ins

I sure hope I don't miss a 30 footer by 5 feet

If I have a ton of putts over 30 feet, guess what I'm hitting my approaches side ways

Practice what you face on the course

40% of the strokes are putts

Most of the putts will be 12 to 30 feet if you are a ball striker

Good short game puts you within 3 feet on missed greens

Great lags on 12 to 30 footers puts you always within 3 feet on GIR's

If I have a lot of 3-5 foot putts in any round, my lags stunk that day or my short game stunk

Why people practice all the time 3-5 footers is beyond me

It's like they are saying

Wow I can't lag or my short game sucks

LOL

Everyone misses a 3-5 footer once in a while, the key is to have great lag putts and great short game so you are always in the circle for tap ins, and that circle is within 3 feet of the cup

If you are blowing a lot of 3-5 foot putts, practice your lagging and your short game

A great day lagging and short game

Means you have tap ins all day

If you have a bunch of 3-5 footers constantly you are not lagging well and your short game isn't that tight

I don't disagree with the post, but I think it varies for each individual.  I think you need to asses the weak points of your game and spend your time there.

For example, my long game is fairly solid.  But when I crank a drive or second shot to 100 yards and then pull the approach, that's when things fall apart.  Having pulled the approach, my short game is often not strong enough to get me up and down.  I make a poor chip and then I'm not a good enough putter to drain that 13-footer I left myself.  So, I end up with a double if I 2-putt, or a triple if I don't.

Now, I realize you'll say:  "Aha!  Just fix that approach shot and that solves all the problems."  While there's an awful lot of truth to that, I also have to fix the rest of the short game for those times I do flub the approach, which will continue to happen more often than I'd like, even if I do improve the approaches.

As a high-handicapper I've made a resolution with myself.   For the next 10 or 20 rounds, I'm not going after the pin - ever, unless it happens to be in the center of the green.  I'm going for the absolute fattest part of the green on every approach or par 3.   I'll report back what effect it has on my scores.

Would you also say that it is easier to learn the short game (pitch, chip etc..) over the long game shot that involves more moving parts. There is a ton more to go wrong in a 200 yard iron shot than a 30 ft chip shot. The 200 yard shot also means more. The chip means you have missed the green, if you can hit the green you wont have that problem.

Not to speak for Erik but yes I would say the short game is easier to learn.  I feel most golfers, with the right information and time, can have a stellar short game.  The motion and sequencing for chips and pitches is just more simple.