Is it legal to use your putter to line up your putt? - Page 2

 

It's confusing when it comes to trying to find the words in the rules that conclusively prove your statements. I believe your assessment is correct, but you're relying on ideas not defined in the rules (at least the excerpts we've seen in this thread or that I can recall off the top of my head).

 

The rule that could prevent you is the bit about touching the green to indicate the line for putting. I believe (though don't know for certain) that this would include using your putter or another club to extend your reach. What in the rules tells us that it's ok to touch the green by lying the putter on the ground behind the ball for alignment, which certainly could be considered indicating the line for putting.

 

Again, I don't think your statements are wrong, and I think the interpretation would allow this. The confusing part is figuring out whether this is actually stated in the rules, or if it's simply leaning on common sense/common practice.

 

First, I agree no penalty.  Where there has been some confusion is what Rule would apply in deciding whether or not the OP breached a rule.  Some like yourself, have mentioned R16-1 and the Definition of Line Of Putt.  Because the "Line of Putt" starts at the ball and ends at the hole, obviously R16-1 does not apply to a putter laid behind the ball.  So far so good.

 

I brought up rule R8-2b which is Advise: Indicating the Line of Play which prohibits touching the green in order to indicate the Line for Putting.  There has been other threads   ( http://thesandtrap.com/t/58623/touching-line-of-putt ) , along with this one, which say that these two rules, 16-1 and 8- 2b are saying the same thing.  This is where I've disagreed.  My contention is that you can touch the green in places other than the "line of Putt" and be in breach of the rules......specifically 8-2b.

 

I posed the original question and got some opinions concerning 16-1 and 8-2b here.  

 

http://golfrules.freeforums.org/line-for-putting-t1833.html

 

zeg and pogle mirror this consensus.

I disagree. The Rules don't conclusively state that I'm allowed to drink a Gatorade prior to putting, nor do they say that I can set the bottle down to the side before I hit my putt (they do talk about whether it's "equipment" of course), but that doesn't mean I'm not allowed to drink a Gatorade or set it down on the fringe or something.

The Rules don't define everything we can do - they mostly focus on defining what we can't, because that list is far shorter.

That fails the sniff test for me. The line goes from the ball to the hole and a reasonable distance on each side (laterally, not past the hole or the ball).


The line (neither of the "lines" being discussed) doesn't go backwards.


Right. You can't touch the line of the putt or the line for putting on the putting green.

 

No, but this is rather different from the Gatorade example because the rules do ban some things quite similar to the actions in question. Thus, we need to understand why these acts are excepted from the prohibitions.

 

 

That's true, but the rules quite consciously choose a term other than the line of the putt in this rule. Given the persnickity nature of the governing bodies when it comes to definitions and terminology, I don't think we can just assume they really meant to use the defined term. By your reading, there's simply no need for 8-2b at all. You're already not allowed to touch the line of the putt under 16-1a. The fact that they've called out a distinct and differently worded rule strongly implies that the two rules are governing different actions.

I suppose I disagree entirely on how "similar" this is.

There's no example in the Rules about the line going backwards except to talk about how someone can't be there during the actual stroke (nor can alignment aids, etc.).

Ok, this is starting to smell like a dead horse.  I think everyone is in agreement that absolutely no penalty to the OP in R16 and it seems reasonable that placing the club behind the ball does not breach R8-2b.

 

I'm also hoping we have a consensus that "Line of Putt" and "Line for Putting are two different things covered in two different rules. I am not swayed in my interpretation of the ruling in http://thesandtrap.com/t/58623/touching-line-of-putt

 

Whew.  

Your words in red in that thread are the answer.

I'm still in disagreement, but I'm probably wrong.

 

8-2b On the Putting Green

When the player’s ball is on the putting green, the player, his partner or either of their caddies may, before but not during the strike, point out a line for putting, but in so doing the putting green must not be touched. A mark must not be placed anywhere to indicate a line for putting.

 

Definition: Putting Green

The “putting green’ is all ground of the hole being played that is specially prepared for putting or otherwise defined as such by the Committee. A ball is on the putting green when any part of it touches the putting green

 

This actually seems pretty clear to me that you cannot touch the green. Not with your hand, not with your putter or anything else that would be an aide. I don't even know why the line of the putt is even discussed or what difference it makes where it extends. The rule clearly states that you cannot touch the putting green. Period.

Because there are tons of times when you can touch the putting green.

I can set my wedge down on the putting green. My towel. My feet. My hand to brush away or pick up a loose impediment. The flag. My hat. A bottle of water. I can sit on the green, or even lie down and take a nap (if I don't mind being hit into, I suppose).

I agree. But at none of those times are you determining the putting line and under the restrictions of rule 8-2b. If you do any of that in order to lne up your putt, you are in violation of the rule.

When the player’s ball is on the putting green, the player, his partner or either of their caddies may, before but not during the stroke, point out a line for putting, but in so doing the putting green must not be touched.

 

Yes, yes.

 

It still seems to me that putting a club on the ground aligned with the direction you want to putt the ball meets the definition of "point[ing] out a line for putting."

I saw this on Sunday during the airing of the final round of the Travelers.  I believe I saw Matt Kuchar with his putter laying on the green with him lining it up as an extension of his line.

In his book about putting Arnold Palmer has a putter, like those big square boxes some people have, which can be laid on it's side behind the ball when lining. When happy rotate it by 90 degrees by lifting the handle up, and putt.

 

And what about BenRoss Innovator Stand Up putters?

 

I fully understand what you're saying about the confusion.  But, if you interpret this rule this way, wouldn't it also prohibit alignment aids on the side of a golf ball?  Or is there a specific exception for that?

 

That'd be a bit of a stretch. I don't think the rules consider the ball being on the ground as touching the ground.

 

Though, IIRC, there was some debate about whether the rules should permit alignment marks on the ball. I think this was probably to do with whether they're "unusual equipment" or the like, rather than the rule in question here.

 

They're not alignment lines when they're on a golf ball. They're just the markings on the golf ball. That you can use them for alignment is irrelevant. You could make a plaid golf ball if you wanted.

 

Like this?  Yes.  It makes perfect sense to me!