Is it legal to use your putter to line up your putt? - Page 3

Quote:

Originally Posted by zeg 

It still seems to me that putting a club on the ground aligned with the direction you want to putt the ball meets the definition of "point[ing] out a line for putting."

I don't think so. The idea behind Rule 8-2b is that a point on a line of putt or on the extention of the direction of putt is not to be pointed out during a stroke. Placing a putter on the ground beside the ball is not pointing out, even though it may help the player in aligning his putt.

Do also note that it is specifically allowed to place a club in front of the ball when addressing it (R16-1a(ii)).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ignorant 

 

I don't think so. The idea behind Rule 8-2b is that a point on a line of putt or on the extention of the direction of putt is not to be pointed out during a stroke. Placing a putter on the ground beside the ball is not pointing out, even though it may help the player in aligning his putt.

 

Do also note that it is specifically allowed to place a club in front of the ball when addressing it (R16-1a(ii)).

That seems to be the interpretation, but it's not clear to me from the written rules. For example, if your caddy stands down the line and points out the line (without touching) while you adjust the club on the ground, is that just alignment or is it pointing out the line?

I don't have an issue with this being permitted. To be honest, I think the prohibition on touching the green for this purpose is unnecessary. However, it seems to me that the distinction is small. After all, what is "alignment" if it's not pointing out the line for putting? There is a difference in intent, but it seems a bit vague.

Address seems to be better defined as a separate procedure, so it bothers me less, though there is still overlap. But the more I think about it, the less sense I think the specific prohibition on touching the green while pointing out a line is sort of pointless.

Still confusing to me. Looking at the same question on other boards hasn't given a solid conclusion either. One source I looked at was about.com where this question was asked about alignment aids. Granted, they are not an absolute authority, however I suspect they thoroughly research a topic before publishing their answers.

The link is: http://golf.about.com/od/rulesofgolf/a/rfaq_alignaid.htm

Here is an excerpt:

Can a golfer use golf clubs (or other items) to help align himself for a stroke during a round of golf?

The rule that addresses this situation is Rule 8-2, Indicating Line of Play. Rule 8-2a addresses this question for all situations "Other Than on Putting Green"; Rule 8-2b addresses the question for "On the Putting Green."

On the putting green, the answer is a quick "no." The player, his partner or either of their caddies are allowed to point out the putting line prior to - but not during - the stroke; however, they are not allowed to touch the green in so doing, and no marks or aids of any kind can be placed on the green (whether prior to the stroke or during the putting stroke).

It just seems to me that a club used to aim a putt is indicating the line of play

Quote:

Originally Posted by reedf 

One source I looked at was about.com where this question was asked about alignment aids. Granted, they are not an absolute authority, however I suspect they thoroughly research a topic before publishing their answers.

I wouldn't make that assumption. I don't know anything specifically regarding about.com, but many sites like that are just content mills, so I certainly wouldn't give them any higher weight than consensus on this forum.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zeg 

 

That seems to be the interpretation, but it's not clear to me from the written rules. For example, if your caddy stands down the line and points out the line (without touching) while you adjust the club on the ground, is that just alignment or is it pointing out the line?

I think you are mixing the things up a bit.

A caddie can point out a line FOR putting as he stands down the line but a player cannot do that by placing his putter by his ball. In order to understand that one has to understand what pointing out the line means. I'm afraid I cannot explain that to you properly without drawings and I do not know how to create/attach them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reedf 

Still confusing to me. Looking at the same question on other boards hasn't given a solid conclusion either. One source I looked at was about.com where this question was asked about alignment aids. Granted, they are not an absolute authority, however I suspect they thoroughly research a topic before publishing their answers.

 

The link is: http://golf.about.com/od/rulesofgolf/a/rfaq_alignaid.htm

 

Here is an excerpt:

 

Can a golfer use golf clubs (or other items) to help align himself for a stroke during a round of golf?

 

The rule that addresses this situation is Rule 8-2, Indicating Line of Play. Rule 8-2a addresses this question for all situations "Other Than on Putting Green"; Rule 8-2b addresses the question for "On the Putting Green."

 

On the putting green, the answer is a quick "no." The player, his partner or either of their caddies are allowed to point out the putting line prior to - but not during - the stroke; however, they are not allowed to touch the green in so doing, and no marks or aids of any kind can be placed on the green (whether prior to the stroke or during the putting stroke).

 

It just seems to me that a club used to aim a putt is indicating the line of play

Not if that club is the one the player is holding in his hands. It has to be another club laid down on the ground, then it is a breach of R8-2b.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ignorant 

I think you are mixing the things up a bit.

 

A caddie can point out a line FOR putting as he stands down the line but a player cannot do that by placing his putter by his ball. In order to understand that one has to understand what pointing out the line means. I'm afraid I cannot explain that to you properly without drawings and I do not know how to create/attach them.

Well, I'm pretty certain I understand what "pointing out the line [for putting]" means. As it's not using any defined terms (i.e., it is not using the term "line of play"), it would seem it should be read as plain English. One would normally think of pointing out the line as you describe it---the caddy standing toward the hole---but since it's not defined, I don't see why he couldn't stand behind the golfer. After all, while the line of play does not extend away from the hole past the ball, one could perfectly well point to a line and say "putt away from here."

I'd agree with you that the player cannot be considered to be pointing out a line for putting when he addresses the ball. That would, of course, be nonsensical. But that's not the situation I'm talking about. Prior to address, the rules seem to preclude touching the green for this purpse, and I'd think this would fairly obviously include, say, using the putter as an "extended finger" to touch a spot on the ground. If you're saying that a player is, for some reason, allowed to touch the green with his putter for this purpose other than at address, the issue is that I don't understand what rule or decision specifies this rule. There certainly is no clause, aside from the obvious fact that you're allowed to address the ball, that would give a player any leave to touch the green whether it's with his putter or his finger.

(I suppose it's possible that "touch" really only means with ones hand or finger. However, if that's the case, I really don't understand the purpose behind the rule.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by zeg 

(I suppose it's possible that "touch" really only means with ones hand or finger. However, if that's the case, I really don't understand the purpose behind the rule.)

Touch does not simply mean the hand or finger, as you cannot indicate by touching a flagstick, towel, your foot, etc.

General statements made to all (i.e. nobod specific):

I'm not sure why this continues to bother some people. It strikes me as perfectly legal, and I've seen players - in USGA events - set their putter down as they crouched behind their ball reading the putt. Their fingers are loosely on the putter grip (not 100% of the time) and whether they're actually using the shaft as a "line" is irrelevant - the Rules don't really discuss intent except in a few rare cases. The putter is on the extended line (past the ball) of their putt.

Rather than search for a rule which allows it, find the rule which disallows it. I don't believe 8-2b disallows this.

I know you think the rules about "line of play" and "the line of the putt" and "putting line" and whatever variations are confusing, but it's perfectly allowed because it's a stretch to read the rules the way you seem to be to indicate that it's NOT allowed.

Write to the USGA. Include a diagram or take a picture showing the scenario the next time you're out playing.

Well, sure, if you simply don't believe 8-2b disallows it, then you're not going to have an issue. However, as written, I don't see why 8-2b wouldn't apply. Honestly, I don't understand the claim that it's a "stretch," because the words as written pretty exactly seem to apply. As you said, intent only very rarely enters the rules, but your understanding seems to draw just such a distinction between "pointing out a line" and "aligning with a line."

Anyway, I'm mostly just curious about this, not really to the point where I'm likely to contact the USGA. And it's probably time to let this conversation peter out, because we all seem to be saying variations on the same things.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zeg 

Well, sure, if you simply don't believe 8-2b disallows it, then you're not going to have an issue. However, as written, I don't see why 8-2b wouldn't apply. Honestly, I don't understand the claim that it's a "stretch," because the words as written pretty exactly seem to apply. As you said, intent only very rarely enters the rules, but your understanding seems to draw just such a distinction between "pointing out a line" and "aligning with a line."

No, I simply think it's not the line.

Look at the rule regarding a caddie lining a player up from behind the shot. That's in 14-2b. It specifically mentions "behind the ball." Those words do not appear in 8-2.

8-2a/2 only mentions an alignment aid behind or beside the ball when he leaves it there during the stroke. It makes no mention of how this would be disallowed on the putting green at all.

That may be it, but I'm still not 100% sold. The rule, while you're correct and it's interesting that it doesn't specify "behind the ball," also doesn't use the same language as 14-2. Rule 8-2b reads,

It seems significant to me that it quite generally states that the putting green may not be touched while pointing out a line for putting. I'd have no issue with your interpretation if it used the defined term "line of play" or "line of putt." As it reads, it seems to me like a much more general rule, because one can point out a line without being anywhere near that line. Since the LoP terms specificy that they begin at the ball, the language in 14-2b is needed to include the extension, but I don't think that's needed here with the different phrasing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zeg 

That may be it, but I'm still not 100% sold. The rule, while you're correct and it's interesting that it doesn't specify "behind the ball," also doesn't use the same language as 14-2. Rule 8-2b reads,

 

It seems significant to me that it quite generally states that the putting green may not be touched while pointing out a line for putting. I'd have no issue with your interpretation if it used the defined term "line of play" or "line of putt." As it reads, it seems to me like a much more general rule, because one can point out a line without being anywhere near that line. Since the LoP terms specificy that they begin at the ball, the language in 14-2b is needed to include the extension, but I don't think that's needed here with the different phrasing.

The key word in the rule I cited is "extension." The line of putt does not extend behind the ball, so the USGA establishes once again that the "line" (regardless of the words around it) is from the ball to the hole. Sometimes the line is straight (i.e. when taking a drop behind a water hazard), and sometimes it's curved (when putting, given break).

Sure, but 8-2b doesn't just say you may not touch the line of putt, it says you may not touch the putting green at all in pointing out the line. To me, given the precision of the golf legalese elsewhere, that's a significant choice of language.

Just to keep things clear, I do think your overall interpretation is probably correct. If this were banned, there would probably be some guidance from the ruling bodies about this. However, I think the wording doesn't exactly line up with this, at least, not as well as it could. I seem to be in the minority, although I take some comfort from the thread that's been linked a couple times that lets me know I'm not entirely alone. :-)

Quote:

Originally Posted by zeg 
8-2b doesn't just say you may not touch the line of putt, it says you may not touch the putting green at all in pointing out the line. To me, given the precision of the golf legalese elsewhere, that's a significant choice of language.

 

 

The words would seem to have been chosen very carefully

Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas 

You can put a club on the ground behind the ball. Heck, you can use your putter to mark your ball's position if you want.
I'm not sure why this is confusing.
You can't point to a spot on the green and touch it to indicate the line of the putt. You can't have an alignment aid present when making a stroke. You can't test the surface of the green.
Other than that, what other rules could possibly prevent you from setting your putter down on the green? Heck, you can set another club down behind your ball if you want, so long as you move it before you make your stroke.
BTW, rather than do whatever you're doing, get some ball markers like this and you won't need to use your putter:

Those are awesome! Do you guys sell those?

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkhunter139 

Those are awesome! Do you guys sell those?

We will be. We've just ordered up a few hundred more.

To answer your first point first.

Click on this link and you will see a list of threads in this forum.

www.thesandtrap.com/f/3801/rules-of-golf

You will also see to the top left and bottom left buttons to

'Start a New Thread'

Just click either of them.

To you second point.

The ball must be marked when it is picked up again. If he didn't he is in breach. If he did, did he use his normal marker or was he relying on the position of hisclubhead to mark? If the latter, where was his ball in relarion to the toe or heel of the club?