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Tips on shooting scratch golf? - Page 2

post #19 of 63
Quote:

I assume this is a joke

 

http://thesandtrap.com/t/58816/65-25-10-practice-ratios-where-to-devote-your-practice-time

 

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303753904577454662959172648.html?grcc=79f195136c98488e804773e163e95cb2Z3ZhpgeZ0Z234Z200Z49Z2&mod=WSJ_hps_sections_sports

 

As you can see that the impact of a short game has a minimal impact on a person's score. If you look at Tiger's best years, he was besting the field by 3.2 strokes per round, of those 3.2 strokes, 2 of them came from the long game, and 1 came from shortgame & Putting. As you can see, it wasn't tiger's putting or his short game that made him the best, 2/3rds of his advantage over the rest of the field was his ability to hit greens.

 

Just look at it this way, Pro's get up and down 50% of the time, they hit about 68% greens. If you want to become a stracth player, your going to want to hit in the mid to upper 60% range in GIR's. From there your just using your short game to battle for every stroke possible. But if you just practice your short game and putting, no matter what, you might have a good day and shoot near scratch, but you wont be a consistant scratch shooter because its really hard to make putts, and its hard to keep relying on a short game. The percentage of making putts outside of 10' is less than 15% and drops fast.

 

For scratch players,

Get your GIR's as high as you can, if your stuck at like 8-10 GIR's, then you might just consider trying to have a very above average short game. Other than that, really try to get 12 GIR's. If you look at Pro's they know were to miss shots, they miss them in easy bunker places, and areas were they know they will have uphill chips (because uphill putts are what they are looking for) So, most of the time they are making easy chips (we just see the tough ones because it makes for good TV). So alot of there short game is set up by there long game. As for putting, speed speed speed, and practice a ton on 5' and in. Pro's make above 90% on those.

post #20 of 63

Lets just say its important to work on both.  I think tho, you should focus more on your shortgame in about a 60-40 practice of short to long.

post #21 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by voidofenigmas View Post

Lets just say its important to work on both.  I think tho, you should focus more on your shortgame in about a 60-40 practice of short to long.

I'd agree with that after you've grooved a good golf swing.  Which for most people, takes years of practice.

post #22 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by voidofenigmas View Post

can not be right everytime, i'm purely speaking from my own perspective because being trained as a golf teacher and therefore can pick out bad information in golf digest. However disagreeing with my first statement I dont agree with, a good golf course, will call on you to hit a fade or a slice. If you know how to control your fade or slice, you can pick apart a golf course.

95% of the shots a PGA Tour player hits are the same pattern. Every time. They aren't curving the ball like crazy and they're not doing a lot of shot shaping. They have a pattern with which they're comfortable, and they hit that shot the overwhelming majority of the time.

The shot might differ between, say, driver and irons, but they hit the same driver shot most of the time and the same iron shot almost all the time.

I disagree completely with "learn to work the ball in practice." Better advice IMO is "learn and groove your pattern."
post #23 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr3Wiggle View Post

I'd agree with that after you've grooved a good golf swing.  Which for most people, takes years of practice.

That bolded point is very important.  You could be the best putter and short game player in the world but that doesn't mean anything if you can't keep the ball in play.

post #24 of 63

Knowing how to feel and fix a swing fault is huge.  Simply your swing.  Want, don't fear birdie putts.  Don't follow a bad shot with another bad shot. Get up and down from 40yards.

post #25 of 63
Ball striking > Short game.
post #26 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by adamgoodman View Post

Ball striking > Short game.

I agree. See this thread for more: http://thesandtrap.com/t/58816/65-25-10-practice-ratios-where-to-devote-your-practice-time .
post #27 of 63

Short game is good to have, but you still can't score if you're deep in the trees off the tee, or duffing iron shots down the fairway.  I spent a lot of time practicing short game, but my scores never dropped a lot.  I started keeping stats and realized if you're only hitting 4 good drives during a round, and only hitting 3 or 4 Greens In Regulation, you're not going to score well.  But I hit my irons great, so why are my GIRs so low?  Well, it's hard to hit the green when you're in the other fairway or behind a tree somewhere.  

 

My driver is my biggest problem right now, I spray it everywhere.  I probably lose 7 shots per round because of it.  So I have a lesson this afternoon with my course pro to try to get a bit more consistent with it.  After that, I know my next weakness is fairway woods.  I just don't hit them consistently.  So I will work on that after I've grooved the driver. 

 

But I can hit wedges and chips in the yard and practice putting on the carpet, so those can be practiced at any time.

post #28 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfingdad View Post

 

I disagree with this.  Once you are a scratch golfer or getting pretty close, by all means, learn how to hit all different kinds of shots to get even better.  But for now, it seems to me that you are better off perfecting one shot - whether it be draw or fade - that you can repeat consistently.

 

 

I would say that the difference from getting to a 4 handicap to pro level for me was exactly this - shaping the ball. I used to think as a 4 handicap that i was too good to shape the ball. Sure, someone ask me to hit a hook, I could do it. someone ask me to hit a high fade, no problem. 

 

But it was only until I started experimenting more with differring ways of doing each shape, and working on refining it more. 5 yards fade, 10 yard draw, 3 yard draw, 15 yard fade. Tiger woods also practices the 9 shots of golf Fade, draw and straight with 3 differing trakectories.

 

I would implement this only as maybe 1/5th of total practice. The other 1/5th should be calibrating a straight shot. Most people tend to spend too much time in this phase thoug, and end up nowhere.

 

Skill is surprisingly not developed through doing the same stock shot over and over. More experimentation (even if you dont use it on the golf course) provides the brain with far more information to use efefctively - it seems more and more scientific studies are proving this. Darts players do better when tryign to hit differing parts of the board in practice, and even doing it from differing distances away from the board. This is true with almost every sport.

post #29 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Young View Post

 

I would say that the difference from getting to a 4 handicap to pro level for me was exactly this - shaping the ball. I used to think as a 4 handicap that i was too good to shape the ball. Sure, someone ask me to hit a hook, I could do it. someone ask me to hit a high fade, no problem. 

 

But it was only until I started experimenting more with differring ways of doing each shape, and working on refining it more. 5 yards fade, 10 yard draw, 3 yard draw, 15 yard fade. Tiger woods also practices the 9 shots of golf Fade, draw and straight with 3 differing trakectories.

 

I would implement this only as maybe 1/5th of total practice. The other 1/5th should be calibrating a straight shot. Most people tend to spend too much time in this phase thoug, and end up nowhere.

 

Skill is surprisingly not developed through doing the same stock shot over and over. More experimentation (even if you dont use it on the golf course) provides the brain with far more information to use efefctively - it seems more and more scientific studies are proving this. Darts players do better when tryign to hit differing parts of the board in practice, and even doing it from differing distances away from the board. This is true with almost every sport.


refreshing to have someone at that level talk about how important shaping it well is.

post #30 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by voidofenigmas View Post


refreshing to have someone at that level talk about how important shaping it well is.

I don't think it is. 95% of the shots a player on the PGA Tour hits are the same shape. They just OWN that shape.
post #31 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post


I don't think it is. 95% of the shots a player on the PGA Tour hits are the same shape. They just OWN that shape.

ya but when they need to, they can shape it either way.

post #32 of 63

just play learn where you lost strokes. A good example was today I shot and 83 with 10 greens hit and 7 3 putts. Obviously I need to work on putting but for you it may be 0 greens hit and an 83 your putting maybe good but you obviously need to work on ball striking its a pretty easy to answer question. 

post #33 of 63

I am by no means a scratch golfer (or even that good to be honest) but a fun little game I play when I am on my own and have lots of time on the course is "worst ball."  Going to the range will help big time but once you got your shots down pat you have to put it into practice, and being able to get up and down from your worst positions will save you quite a few strokes.

post #34 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by VoidOfEnigmas View Post

ya but when they need to, they can shape it either way.


Yea, but to get to scratch, most people need to get their primary shot shape down before they can start shaping the ball both ways. I can normally adjust my setup to move the ball differently (luckily), but in general when I can play a draw, I play the draw.

post #35 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by Precis1on View Post


Yea, but to get to scratch, most people need to get their primary shot shape down before they can start shaping the ball both ways. I can normally adjust my setup to move the ball differently (luckily), but in general when I can play a draw, I play the draw.


not disagreeing. Exactly what your saying pretty much is what i'm saying. No problem with having a primary shot, im saying to know how to hit all shapes and be comfortable with them is crucial to getting to scratch golf.

post #36 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post

I don't think it is. 95% of the shots a player on the PGA Tour hits are the same shape. They just OWN that shape.

 

I agree and disagree. I was talking more about having the ability to do it, and practising it more off the course, over actually hitting different shapes on the course. I do agree that tour pro's hit a stock shot for the most part. But they also know how to manipulate things (if that is the word) to control their ball when certain patterns emerge. Most players who only have one shot, they get real stuck when that draw turns into a hook and they have no reference points to get the ball going more to the right. I see this all the time with players as good as +3. When they are good, they are very good, but when they are bad, they dont have any clue how to get something going. This changes when they REALLY learn shaping.

 

as an example, as a 4-7 handicap I used to play a big hook. Always. There is a distinct advantage to playing a singular shape, mentally mainly, you feel confident in your miss. But if it went wrong and turned into a hook or a push, I had no way of feeling something to bring that pattern under control. But after truly refining shaping, not only did my stock shot instinctively fly with less curvature, but when it went wrong, I could work out how to get it under control within a few shots, if not the very next shot (although I don't like to start changing stuff after just one bad shot, i look for a pattern first).

 

But I would say that it doesn't necessarily have to be a big part of their regime. once the skills have been achieved, they only need to re-visit it every so often. Most players never actually achieve those skills though, even very good players (I'm talking about refining the shapes, not just hitting them). With better players that I teach (have dealt with just over 100 players of handicap 5 to +3 for periods of longer than 3 months in most cases), we usually go through a periodisation, where they concentrate mainly on shaping and varying things, then as tournaments get closer they taper off the variables and get more work done on that ONE shape they like best. But the skills from the previous weeks remain as a conscious and subconscious tool. Maybe they are not as sharp with those shaping skills, but they are still there.   

 

The best players, and ironically the most consistent players I see have the ability to vary things at their will better. This is quite paradoxical to think that variance leads to more consistency. Im sure I could provide a theory for this that matches up with what we believe about motor learning, but take it as anecdotal. Doing testing for IMG academies with the kids there, asking them to hit 50 fades into a target followed by 50 draws (alternating) followed by 50 stock shots (shape of choice) was interesting. The better players on the golf course (in terms of stats - fairways/greens etc - and consistency) were usually no better at hitting their stock shot into the target. But they excelled massively in the ability to shape the ball into their target. Some were good at all - these were the best players.

 

ironically again, was that most of the better shapers had no conscious reference for doing this - they were a lot of south americans with a very 'feel' or instinctive approach to it. They didn't even understand clubface and path, and would look bewildered when you asked them 'how did you curve the ball left? what did you change?'. On video, the differences in their swings were huge between the fade and draw. different path, plane, arm movement, body sequence etc etc etc. Maybe this also gives us some insights into which is the best way to learn golf - consciously controlled body parts, or feelings and task led exercises. Obviously it is different for everyone and others have differing time constraints - but if you are trying to get to scratch golf and are practising a lot, maybe there is a better way to do it.   

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