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What's the rush? Golfs obsession with slow play - Page 10

post #163 of 252

The pace of play also depends on when you tee off.

 

If you are in the first hour of tee times for the day, my club expects you to finish in under 4 hours.

 

If not then it is certainty that by the middle of the day the rounds will exceed 4.5 hours and by the end of the day it may be pushing 5 hours.

post #164 of 252
Quote:
Originally Posted by newtogolf View Post
 

A qualified "yes it has".  I believe rounds under 4 hours for 4 ball stroke play are possible without racing through the course, where as when I started this thread I would have said that's too fast. 

 

I also still believe some people like to rush through their rounds for whatever personal reasons and that what they consider acceptable pace of play would not be enjoyable for me.

Nothing wrong with that.  Just let the ones who want to play faster through if there is room in front of you.

post #165 of 252
Quote:

Originally Posted by Golfingdad 

 

 

 

The unbearable, slow days are the ones where you arrive at the tee and the group in front of you hasn't even started hitting yet because the green still isn't clear.  Then you arrive to a par 3 tee box and the group in front of the group in front of you is just getting ready to hit.  Ugh.  But those are fairly rare unless you play the muni's on mid Saturday mornings.

 

I had this delightful experience a couple months ago.

 

My buddy and I were playing as a twosome and we had just teed off on a par 3 and were approaching the green somewhere in the middle of the back 9 on a gorgeous after Labor Day Saturday afternoon when we looked over and saw not one foursome, but two foursomes waiting as a third foursome was teeing off.  I want to say we ended up waiting half an hour to forty-five minutes from when we were done with the par 3 and were able to tee off on the par 4. It was frustrating but expected as it's the nicest municipal course in the area (IMO) and a beautiful Saturday afternoon after Labor Day so we ended up just waiting and chatting with one of the waiting foursomes.

post #166 of 252

Oh, I will also add that I almost always play a public courses and think a little over 4 hours is an acceptable time to play a round.

 

That being said, I've also played 5.5-6 hour rounds where you have to wait five to ten minutes at every tee box but playing public courses on a beautiful Saturday in the summer, you kind of expect it.

post #167 of 252
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by turtleback View Post
 

Nothing wrong with that.  Just let the ones who want to play faster through if there is room in front of you.

I have no issue with allowing faster golfers to play through, if there is room.

 

Unfortunately many speed golfers don't understand the concept that there has to be room for them to play through and that 2 or 3 groups aren't going to hold up their game just so they can play through.

post #168 of 252
Quote:
Originally Posted by newtogolf View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by turtleback View Post

 
Nothing wrong with that.  Just let the ones who want to play faster through if there is room in front of you.
I have no issue with allowing faster golfers to play through, if there is room.

Unfortunately many speed golfers don't understand the concept that there has to be room for them to play through and that 2 or 3 groups aren't going to hold up their game just so they can play through.

A couple weeks ago I brought a friend out to play for the first time since he was 13 and what was also likely his only other time playing golf.

I knew we'd be slow because I suggested to him to take his time because the course was fairly empty. There was an occasion when we let a twosome go and another occasion when we let a single play through. No big deal

I told him we were taking our time today but that under normal conditions, one would play faster.

He had so much fun with me he bought a starter set of clubs the next day. Haha
post #169 of 252
Quote:
Originally Posted by RFKFREAK View Post
 

Oh, I will also add that I almost always play a public courses and think a little over 4 hours is an acceptable time to play a round.

 

A little over four hours at a public course would not only be acceptable, but likely a relief if the course is at all popular and playing at peak hours.

post #170 of 252

Each year, I try to play my age in golf holes, in a day. I played 58 holes on Nov 11. Due to limited daylight, I had to play fast. Course is 5775 yards, with a few fairly long cut-backs, green-to-tee, Par 70. Flat but plenty "rumpled". I played nine holes with one other fellow, about four holes with a foursome of friends and played two other holes with two guys. I bailed on the two guys - I would have run out of daylight if I had played that whole 18 with them. I zig-zagged to get shut of them. I picked a not-too-busy day and walked, pushing my cart. I played the same ball for most of the holes, finally losing it and another later on in leaves. I took few practice swings, but never rushed. I walked briskly, but was not pushing it -- I knew I had to pace myself (bad knee and hip). First 18 was the fastest - just over 2:25. My wife came out and caddied my last 14 holes. I finished with an hour of daylight to spare, in 7:32. (7 am to 3 pm with time out for some chicken soup.) That's 452 minutes to play 18,876 yards (10.725 miles). Averaging a snailish (but steady) 1.43 MPH over 7.5 hours. About 42 yards a minute, or almost 8 minutes a hole, average. 79-76-86, playing winter rules and some forward, seasonal tees that probably helped me out a bit (as did the lift-clean-and-cheat). My highest score was an 8 (4 over) and I had several deuces (but only 4 birdies). The course was in great shape and it was an awesome day.

 

I'm a 14 index and playing at this rate was easy. There's NO GOOD reason golf can't be more of a 3-hour event - NOT FIVE! - if everyone (those who book the rounds, starters and marshals, players and caddies) made it more of a priority. 

post #171 of 252
Quote:
Originally Posted by shihtappens View Post
 

Each year, I try to play my age in golf holes, in a day. I played 58 holes on Nov 11. Due to limited daylight, I had to play fast. Course is 5775 yards, with a few fairly long cut-backs, green-to-tee, Par 70. Flat but plenty "rumpled". I played nine holes with one other fellow, about four holes with a foursome of friends and played two other holes with two guys. I bailed on the two guys - I would have run out of daylight if I had played that whole 18 with them. I zig-zagged to get shut of them. I picked a not-too-busy day and walked, pushing my cart. I played the same ball for most of the holes, finally losing it and another later on in leaves. I took few practice swings, but never rushed. I walked briskly, but was not pushing it -- I knew I had to pace myself (bad knee and hip). First 18 was the fastest - just over 2:25. My wife came out and caddied my last 14 holes. I finished with an hour of daylight to spare, in 7:32. (7 am to 3 pm with time out for some chicken soup.) That's 452 minutes to play 18,876 yards (10.725 miles). Averaging a snailish (but steady) 1.43 MPH over 7.5 hours. About 42 yards a minute, or almost 8 minutes a hole, average. 79-76-86, playing winter rules and some forward, seasonal tees that probably helped me out a bit (as did the lift-clean-and-cheat). My highest score was an 8 (4 over) and I had several deuces (but only 4 birdies). The course was in great shape and it was an awesome day.

 

I'm a 14 index and playing at this rate was easy. There's NO GOOD reason golf can't be more of a 3-hour event - NOT FIVE! - if everyone (those who book the rounds, starters and marshals, players and caddies) made it more of a priority. 

 

You were playing mostly by yourself.  That doesn't really count when most pace of play discussions involve fourball play.  About 4 years ago a buddy and I played 18 holes as a twosome in less than 1.5 hours  (par 72, 6500 yards from the mid tees), playing every shot, including putting out, and playing by the rules.  Although we were riding, not walking, we still played through 2 groups along the way and never hurried.  Had we so desired, we could have played 58 holes in under 5 hours.  

 

However, I have never approached the game as a race or with a goal like yours.  I've played 72 holes on a weekend many times and that when the course is busy and full.  On those occasions, our plan was to spend the entire day at the course, arriving at about 3 AM to be first on the list for the 5:30 tee time, and then getting a second time around noon.  We did that both Saturday and Sunday, walking and carrying.  Oh for the return of the good old days before I had a wife to cater to, and age crept up on me.  As recently as 2 years ago I was still able to play 36 holes in a day at age 64.  Now I'm not playing enough to stay in playing shape for that.

post #172 of 252
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post
 

 

You were playing mostly by yourself.  

Agreed. Like u said, I had a specific goal.

 

Quote: "That doesn't really count when most pace of play discussions involve fourball play. 

 

OK, BUT, it provides a baseline. Walking singles can average 8 minute holes, twosomes around 10, threesomes 12-13, etc. All players walk at the same time and most of the time is spent walking, so the increment to adding players is not X2, X3, X4 - but rather a fractional gain for each added player.

 

So, the main problems - what you see in those five hour pro-ams, with everyone in powercarts and a shotgun start - are:

- story-telling at the expense of continuous play. Powercarts exacerbate, as the only time you are all together is on-at the tee/green/beer cart. The great (long) stories are told when the foursome is all together and that is s-l-o-w. Save em for the bar, later.

- an overabundance of politeness (go ahead and drive to your ball; the world does not have to be as quiet as a sub's crew in a WWII movie (Ping!) so that some half-drunk dentist can top a 3 wood into the creek)

- way, waaaay, too much time on the green, posturing and preening like the guys we watch on TV. We are standing on the fairway and cursing, and then we get on the green and do the same damn thing. My guess: we all walk up to the ball and putt with a minimum of "stalking" and we all make about the same number of putts as the other, slow way.

 

Not hitting your 270 yard approach out of a divot on a downhill lie (even though your longest drive off the tee, ever, is 260, with wind) because, "they are still on the green". This is gonna happen. Heaven forbid you hit a nice lil' 5 iron and make par, when you COULD hit that lifetime shot and make eagle. (Instead, you wait and then make a snowman.)

 

These issues are solvable. Lousy shot-making is unavoidable and a part of golf (we all have to learn, and learn by playing) so that's not on my hit-list. That guy that pidgeons land on cuz they think he is a statue? Also just part of the game -- some guys get frozen. 

 

Faintly gruff but ineffective signs (We expect a 4.5 hour round...If you are here in more than 1 hour, you are out-of-position!...etc) are a waste of paint & plywood. Marshals are usually not much help.

 

Maybe courses with a problem need to have a time deposit. If you play in more than your allotment, you loose a portion of, or in flagrant situations (complaints, drunkenness, etc.) ALL of your deposit (say...$10) Play in less than your allotment, you get a couple of extra bucks back. Or, in a tournament, add STROKES for slow play. Ha!

 

Pipe dreams. Slow play is my only real bitch about golf, so - just venting. The only true solution is golfers voting with their wallets - avoiding courses/times that are a chronic problem. Culturally tho, I wonder if we don't invite slow play by accepting it. 

post #173 of 252
Quote:
Originally Posted by shihtappens View Post

 

Maybe courses with a problem need to have a time deposit. If you play in more than your allotment, you loose a portion of, or in flagrant situations (complaints, drunkenness, etc.) ALL of your deposit (say...$10) Play in less than your allotment, you get a couple of extra bucks back. Or, in a tournament, add STROKES for slow play. Ha!

 

Pipe dreams. Slow play is my only real bitch about golf, so - just venting. The only true solution is golfers voting with their wallets - avoiding courses/times that are a chronic problem. Culturally tho, I wonder if we don't invite slow play by accepting it. 

 

This is a useless idea because all you will do is alienate those customers who lose their deposit because they get held up by others who don't care if they get it back or not.  If every player was in control of his own destiny, then it would be feasible, but that isn't how golf courses work.

post #174 of 252
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post

This is a useless idea because all you will do is alienate those customers who lose their deposit because they get held up by others who don't care if they get it back or not.  If every player was in control of his own destiny, then it would be feasible, but that isn't how golf courses work.

This is true. My son and I were allowed to play through a few parties, and we when finally came up to the bottleneck we discovered why everyone was slow. One person can slow down an entire golf course, and if you penalize those that take their time because they can't move forward it would be a bit unfair.
post #175 of 252
Quote:
Originally Posted by ay33660 View Post
 

The pace of play also depends on when you tee off.

 

If you are in the first hour of tee times for the day, my club expects you to finish in under 4 hours.

 

If not then it is certainty that by the middle of the day the rounds will exceed 4.5 hours and by the end of the day it may be pushing 5 hours.

Exactly....the early groups are held to a higher standard.  If someone gets lucky and takes an early tee time at my  home course, they'll get steamrolled by the regulars.  It won't be a comfortable round for them because multiple groups will be riding their azzes and either wait to get waved through or play right around them. 

 

The early golfers are still responsible to maintain pace with the group ahead regardless of the pace.  This means when the pace is fast too, they need to keep up.  If not, they don't belong on the course.  If they can't keep up early, then maybe it's best they stick to later tee times. 

post #176 of 252
Quote:
Originally Posted by BuckeyeNut View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ay33660 View Post
 

The pace of play also depends on when you tee off.

 

If you are in the first hour of tee times for the day, my club expects you to finish in under 4 hours.

 

If not then it is certainty that by the middle of the day the rounds will exceed 4.5 hours and by the end of the day it may be pushing 5 hours.

Exactly....the early groups are held to a higher standard.  If someone gets lucky and takes an early tee time at my  home course, they'll get steamrolled by the regulars.  It won't be a comfortable round for them because multiple groups will be riding their azzes and either wait to get waved through or play right around them. 

 

The early golfers are still responsible to maintain pace with the group ahead regardless of the pace.  This means when the pace is fast too, they need to keep up.  If not, they don't belong on the course.  If they can't keep up early, then maybe it's best they stick to later tee times. 

 

Sorry,but that isn't how it works in real life.  When a course (public course anyway) has a pace of play policy and a group is maintaining that pace, it doesn't matter to the course if they are losing ground on a faster group.  If the faster group can play through, fine, but if they get snotty or self-righteous about it when there are more on pace groups ahead, then they are the ones in the wrong. A course can't post a policy, then get on a group for not beating the required pace, nor can you play faster than the speed which the course is flowing.  

 

When my friends and I play on a typical day on my home course we can be well within the policy pace and still be waiting on every shot.  The rangers can only act if a group is playing slower than the posted pace.  As a result, my friends and I spend a lot of time waiting, even during a 4 hour round.  Unfortunately, despite all of the internet hoopla and hand-wringing, I don't see any concerted effort by most courses to make any great changes.

post #177 of 252
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post

Unfortunately, despite all of the internet hoopla and hand-wringing, I don't see any concerted effort by most courses to make any great changes.

Yep. Until the culture changes, default will be slow play. I hope change happens, "while we're young!" tho, it may have to be unfair and annoying to the innocent: one bad apple. I found a good course with little playing pressure; good rates, great members, etc. But even there, with limited pressure, the starter lets out singles and two-somes on Sat morning and sends people out on the back nine just as early members groups are making the turn. The culture permits this crap, we grumble a bit, but like u say --- no real change, so we grind on towards slow play as the course becomes more popular.

post #178 of 252

I said this before but where i play we rent the course by time, not by holes. But because it's a monopoly situation and the local ID must be shown before play the course can ban a person who violates the time rules. This method cannot work where effective course competition operates. Here there is no available land for golf. Time allotments are 4 hrs 15 mins. 

post #179 of 252

My only issue with slow play are those people that seemingly are out there to just jerk around. The guys who aren't ready to hit when it is their turn and take a few minutes AFTER somebody else in their group has already hit. When I'm walking and running up on guys in carts, I get frustrated. I get it if they are being held up by groups in front of them but I've had many times where groups are seemingly oblivious to pace or to others around them. I will caveat that I normally play military courses or munis but I've seen this at private clubs too.

post #180 of 252

 http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424127887323740804578601882312192680 Good article on the subject by John Paul Newport.

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