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# What's the rush? Golfs obsession with slow play - Page 5

Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas

Some basic math.

If you play 18 holes in 3:45, that's 225 minutes, or 12.5 minutes per hole. So after an hour, you're putting on the fifth green when the single in your example catches up to you.

The single has played nearly five holes in half an hour, so a little more than six minutes per hole. His total round time would normally be less than two hours. (Given my own play as a single, and in some average foursomes, I don't either of these figures are wrong. In fact, they seem pretty dead on.)

But, the problem is this: you're justifying nearly doubling the amount of time it takes this single to play 18 holes (30 minutes to the fifth hole, and 2:43 to play the last 13, making their round take 75% longer) just so that you don't add a few minutes (and a few %) to the amount of time it takes you to play?

In carts, there's no reason letting people through adds a lot of time to your round. I'll invite a single to tee off with us, let him drive ahead while we hit the head or something, and by the time we're done he's gone and out of the way. Or we drive up with him, watch him finish the hole while we re-apply sunscreen, and again, he's done by the time we're done.

Put another way: if it only takes the guy six minutes to play an entire hole, you could sit there and let him play the entire hole you're on FOUR TIMES and still add only 24 minutes to your round time. Or let four singles play through - each waiting until the previous single played the entire hole before teeing off - and still only add 24 minutes (10% or so) to your round's time.

The math doesn't add up. Letting people play through like that should not add 30+ minutes to your time. I get that you're fast. You say you regularly let people through.

Whatever. Let's say we've just finished a hole and decide to let a single through. We follow the USGA's advice and wait on the next tee to let dude play through. We finish the hole and drive away to the next tee box where we hit our shot and wait for him. He has to hit his approach, putt out, get to the tee box, and hit his shot. We all drive to our balls where we let him hit and then wait on him to move on before we hit.

You think that he plays his approach, putts out, hits his tee shot (we're waiting on the tee for him), then after waiting for him to hit again and putt out again that only six additional minutes has elapsed? While we're waiting, he's played three (we'll add the time we wait on the box for him when we could be driving to our balls) full shots and putted out on two greens.....in six minutes?

Hey, if you're that fast, you can play through us anytime.

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i play as a single a lot and i understand that i may have to wait on a foursome, but there are limits. i try to be polite and not ask to play through, but rather let them offer. a week ago i had this:

-a group in front of me is playing from the tips and at least one guy every hole is hitting his second shot from just in front of the mid tees.

-a group in front of my is hacking it up, while i'm standing on the tee. they're taking about 4 shots for every 100 yards towards the hole they go. then they stop the cart girl and spend 15 minutes getting drinks from her while still hanging out about halfway up the fairway.

and a couple time's i've been out it's been groups of 5+ that have really irked me.

i expect to wait playing as a single, but there's a time limit on that especially if you see me and know that it would take 5 minutes to watch me hit my first and probably second shot to get ahead of you so you wouldn't run into me for the rest of the course.

of course i will top the ball once the group of 8 is all hanging around the teebox waiting for me to hit, but that's another story.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LovinItAll

You think that he plays his approach, putts out, hits his tee shot (we're waiting on the tee for him), then after waiting for him to hit again and putt out again that only six additional minutes has elapsed? While we're waiting, he's played three (we'll add the time we wait on the box for him when we could be driving to our balls) full shots and putted out on two greens.....in six minutes?

I didn't say that.

You did. I used your math. He caught up to you in 30 minutes with a 30-minute head start. He played five holes - the entire hole - in six minutes.

So he hits his approach shot, putts out, and then tees off. Yeah, you can do that in six minutes, because he's already done it five times to have caught up with you.

And again, that's just using your example against you.

But yes, excluding your example, here's one such case. The sixth hole where I play is a 190-yard (sometimes longer) par three. The hole after that is a par five. I'll often tee off on the par three, drive 200 yards, and park before the players ahead of me have all finished teeing off. I putt out in less than a minute (full routine here - if I've been waived through it'll be closer to 30 seconds). I'm on the tee and gone again in another minute. 30 seconds later I'm at my ball. 45 seconds after that and I've hit and already begun driving the cart again. If it's a par four and they've driven up and have to wait for me to putt out, okay, give me two more minutes (maybe I have to rake a bunker - otherwise 2:00 here is a LOT of time).

Total time spent waiting, even if they had all managed to tee off: 0:30 + 1:00 + 1:15 + 2:00 - still only 4:45, and that's without exaggerating the times. I play a little faster when I'm being waived through, but not a lot. I'll still laser the distance to the flag, for example.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tiger187126

i play as a single a lot and i understand that i may have to wait on a foursome, but there are limits. i try to be polite and not ask to play through, but rather let them offer. a week ago i had this:

-a group in front of me is playing from the tips and at least one guy every hole is hitting his second shot from just in front of the mid tees.

-a group in front of my is hacking it up, while i'm standing on the tee. they're taking about 4 shots for every 100 yards towards the hole they go. then they stop the cart girl and spend 15 minutes getting drinks from her while still hanging out about halfway up the fairway.

and a couple time's i've been out it's been groups of 5+ that have really irked me.

i expect to wait playing as a single, but there's a time limit on that especially if you see me and know that it would take 5 minutes to watch me hit my first and probably second shot to get ahead of you so you wouldn't run into me for the rest of the course.

of course i will top the ball once the group of 8 is all hanging around the teebox waiting for me to hit, but that's another story.

That's about all I would add to this discussion.  That is, that typically, a single golfer is going to be a pretty good golfer.  I play as a single on occassion, typically when it's on short notice, or if I'm somewhere away from home and have my clubs with me.  If you were to survey every single, twosome, threesome, and foursome on a golf course, and asked each player what their handicap is, you would find that the singles are far and away the lowest average handicap on the course.  My point being that 90% of the time the single that you let play through is going to knock his drive 250+, hit his approach shot to the center of the green, putt and be gone with little to no wait on your part.  You aren't going to run into many singles that you let play through who are going to be taking 7-8 strokes a hole and constantly be looking for wayward shots.

That being said, I understand as a single I need to be patient, and if it's a logjam, I understand there's no point in playing through anyways.  But it is annoying to be stuck behind slower groups when I'm waiting 10 minutes on every shot and not offering to let me play through even with an opening.  I've also been on the other end of that spectrum, and been in a foursome with a single playing up, and personally I'd rather let someone play through than feel pushed the whole round.  It's not enjoyable to feel rushed, and it's not enjoyable to wait on every shot.  So why not do something that would solve both issues and make the round more enjoyable for all?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LovinItAll

Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas

Some basic math.

If you play 18 holes in 3:45, that's 225 minutes, or 12.5 minutes per hole. So after an hour, you're putting on the fifth green when the single in your example catches up to you.

The single has played nearly five holes in half an hour, so a little more than six minutes per hole. His total round time would normally be less than two hours. (Given my own play as a single, and in some average foursomes, I don't either of these figures are wrong. In fact, they seem pretty dead on.)

But, the problem is this: you're justifying nearly doubling the amount of time it takes this single to play 18 holes (30 minutes to the fifth hole, and 2:43 to play the last 13, making their round take 75% longer) just so that you don't add a few minutes (and a few %) to the amount of time it takes you to play?

In carts, there's no reason letting people through adds a lot of time to your round. I'll invite a single to tee off with us, let him drive ahead while we hit the head or something, and by the time we're done he's gone and out of the way. Or we drive up with him, watch him finish the hole while we re-apply sunscreen, and again, he's done by the time we're done.

Put another way: if it only takes the guy six minutes to play an entire hole, you could sit there and let him play the entire hole you're on FOUR TIMES and still add only 24 minutes to your round time. Or let four singles play through - each waiting until the previous single played the entire hole before teeing off - and still only add 24 minutes (10% or so) to your round's time.

The math doesn't add up. Letting people play through like that should not add 30+ minutes to your time. I get that you're fast. You say you regularly let people through.

Whatever. Let's say we've just finished a hole and decide to let a single through. We follow the USGA's advice and wait on the next tee to let dude play through. We finish the hole and drive away to the next tee box where we hit our shot and wait for him. He has to hit his approach, putt out, get to the tee box, and hit his shot. We all drive to our balls where we let him hit and then wait on him to move on before we hit.

You think that he plays his approach, putts out, hits his tee shot (we're waiting on the tee for him), then after waiting for him to hit again and putt out again that only six additional minutes has elapsed? While we're waiting, he's played three (we'll add the time we wait on the box for him when we could be driving to our balls) full shots and putted out on two greens.....in six minutes?

Hey, if you're that fast, you can play through us anytime.

The example you're providing is the one used to justify why slower groups in carts, who can all tee off and race to their first shot before the trailing group (or single in this example) arrives at the tee, never seem to find a way to allow an obviously faster overall group play through. Geez, we're all ready to tee off and they're not even here - let's just go!!

I can't remember the last time it took me 3.5 hours to finish 18... Most of the courses around me state something along the lines that "This is a 4:30 course, play ready golf and keep pace"

Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas

I didn't say that.

You did. I used your math. He caught up to you in 30 minutes with a 30-minute head start. He played five holes - the entire hole - in six minutes.

If I assigned particular hole numbers to when the foursome would be caught, allow me to retract that and say this:

- Foursome that plays in 3:45 tees off on the hour.
- Single takes off 30 minutes later followed by another single and two doubles

Let's say that it takes the twosomes three hours to play, the singles two and a half. Regardless of how you allocate the time, the foursome will, by some of the logic presented here, have to allow all four groups through during the round. I think letting four groups play through if a group is playing a 3:45 pace is a lot. You may disagree. I think it will add at least a half hour to the foursomes round. You may disagree.

At any rate, the bigger point in my mind is that I stand corrected on my original assertion that course priority is determined by the number of players in a group. The fact is that the people arguing with me seem to think I'm the guy that doesn't let players through. That's not the case. More accurately, I see a problem with allowing, as a rule, an infinite number of groups to play through who happen to have fewer players.

Frankly, I abide by the rules and etiquette set forth by the USGA. If they say let all faster groups through, that's what I'll do. I don't pick and choose which rules to follow. I don't have to like every one of them, though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LovinItAll

If I assigned particular hole numbers to when the foursome would be caught, allow me to retract that and say this:

You didn't. You said the single caught up to you in 30 minutes, started 30 minutes after you, and you only take 3:45 to play.

I do disagree that letting six people through will add 30 minutes to your round.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas

You didn't. You said the single caught up to you in 30 minutes, started 30 minutes after you, and you only take 3:45 to play.

I do disagree that letting six people through will add 30 minutes to your round.

Perhaps I should have left the time he caught up to us out of the post.....it was a number I grabbed without much thought, but my point was more that the string of singles/twosomes would all catch up to us.

On Mondays I play with some guys who will indulge me in an experiment to see how much time is added if we let every group that ever has to wait even for a moment through us. We have the first time of the day, so if there are singles/twosomes (or anyone faster) behind us, I'll clock it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LovinItAll

Perhaps I should have left the time he caught up to us out of the post.....it was a number I grabbed without much thought, but my point was more that the string of singles/twosomes would all catch up to us.
On Mondays I play with some guys who will indulge me in an experiment to see how much time is added if we let every group that ever has to wait even for a moment through us. We have the first time of the day, so if there are singles/twosomes (or anyone faster) behind us, I'll clock it.

Though I can imagine you believe that's going to be really effective in persuading us, it's not. It's one example, and we have to take your word for it, with no understanding or real visibility into the situations, scenarios, etc. Furthermore, each of us has conducted hundreds of these experiments ourselves, and though I can't speak for anyone else, I can speak for myself: in my experience, letting a group through costs 3-5 minutes. It can cost up to six or seven if you do it like an idiot (on the tee of a reachable par five, with a group right ahead of you), but in situations like that, I'll still do it because it's the right thing to do for the faster group and I don't mind waiting a little bit. So your experience will clash with mine, and frankly, I don't think anyone will trust you to be objective. You're too new to be trusted.

I don't let groups through if there's "nowhere to go" but will always let faster groups through if they can move through. That's rare, because I'm rarely playing in a big group let alone a group that's being caught up to.

I think you'd simply be best served to re-iterate that you let groups through when it makes sense, play quickly all of the time, and that you may have made up a poor example (because even in that example, you're concerned with only the time it takes you to play your round, and not with the time you're costing the groups piling up behind you).

We'll then simply be at the point where I and others disagree with you on how much time it wastes to let faster groups through you, and only that.

The Sunday 4ball I play in consists of one 66 year old recovering from cancer, one 72 year old recently diagnosed with cancer, a 74 year old with arthritis in the knees and a 54 year old with arthritis in the spine and right hip. All walk the course. Typical round times are about 3.5 hours, sometimes quicker & sometimes a little slower. The average distance between green and next tee is about 50yds, and the course length is 6600yds. We don't rush round, we're not capable of rushing.

Once upon a time the expected time 'limit' for a 4ball was 4hrs, and anything over was frowned upon. Why is it now acceptable to go round in 4.5hrs?

That said, I don't care if you want to take 4.5hrs, just have the courtesy to let those through that are quicker. That way everyone is happy.

I'm 'too new to be trusted'?
My opinion is this . If you are a single player you should expect to be held up...... period. The whole debate about slow play is about playing more ready golf instead of some of the touring pro wannabees playing from the tips and whacking it straight right. Or lining up a putt for triple bogey. That to me is what we should be discussing. If you are a single or twosome and playing on the weekend , well you should expect to be waiting to hit. Slow play is abused IMO by folks who think that their slow play is their right. It is not. People just need to be more considerate when playing golf.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LovinItAll

I'm 'too new to be trusted'?

You have 18 posts, almost all of them in this thread. I'm just pointing out the obvious: nobody's going to believe the results of your "experiment."

I agree with Blacksheep, too, that as a single I often expect to be held up. When I play as a single I'll often try to fit myself into the flow of the round. I'll hit practice putts, hit a few balls, etc. I won't hold anyone up (duh), but I won't push people ahead of me, either.

This thread went slightly OT with the "let singles through" talk. Thanks to Blacksheep for pointing that out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeljames92

I think your mate is missing the whole point about slow play. Really only applies when there is someone directly behind you.

I disagree 100%.  this post reeks of a "non-golfer".....looking over his shoulder.

Edited by BuckeyeNut - 6/25/12 at 1:29am

Yeah, i would also like to ask about the fellow with the arthritic knees. How he is able to make that journey on foot?  I've got knee OA (osteoarthritis) and can hardly walk to Walgreens,  2 blocks away.  I would love to walk again but massive pain and fatigue in one knee and muscle pain throughout both legs and hips keep me in the cart mostly these days.   TKR (total knee replacement) soon, i hope Obama care covers me.

Unfortunately many below average golfers overcompensate by trying to take pride in being "fast players," while scapegoating better players accused as "slow players." It's a form of bad sportsmanship that doesn't get enough attention in the golfing media. It is very disturbing to see the types of distracting tricks they try to use...

Take an example of a par four, where the better player has a longer drive. He waits for the others to hit, as they are away. As soon as they hit they rush up to their ball, whether on the green, bunker or short of the green. When the player with the longest drive finally has his turn to hit, he is often faced with multiple players encircling the green or actually walking around on the putting surface. When he hits, he is the last to arrive on the green. Often some of the other players will begin to putt out of turn, accusing him of being "slow."

Another form of gamesmanship and bad sportsmanship is for the players who have rushed, to walk off the green to the next tee without letting another finish putting. This further creates the false impression that the player left on the green is "slow" when the group behind approaches.

Other rude and unsportsmanlike golfers will simply make a beeline for their ball, no matter where it is in the course of play, hit, then follow their ball to the next shot and so on.

I have spoken directly to such players, telling them not to hit and walk in front of other players, and the common response is "I wasn't in your way," or, "We're just trying to move along."

These players are usually the ones who improve their lies, etc., and try to employ distracting pressure to win a hole or a match. At regular games my club has had for six years, which used to be fun, balls are tossed on the ground to make up the foursomes at random. This precludes being able to arrange one's own pairings. It's a casual club without a membership committee where such conduct could be raised and disciplined.

I would be interested to hear opinions, particularly from golf professionals. We recently had a retired tour pro join the club, who immediately saw through the shenanigans. Naturally, both he and I have been labelled "slow players" because we observe both the rules of golf and etiquette.

I am a below average golfer who takes pride in being a "fast player".  However - I don't do any of the things you mention.  For instance - I may walk directly to my ball but never in the path of another player's shot.  After I hit my shot (since I am typically away) I walk up the fairway to the next player's ball - but not past it.  The only exception to this is if I hit it way off line, am well out of the way and know I could use an extra minute or 2 of searching for my ball.

My point is only that you can be below average and a fast player without being unsportsmanlike.  In my opinion we all should be encouraged to play as quickly as is reasonable and safe.  Walking around on the green while another player is making an approach is not safe.  If I were that player I would insist that everybody get off the green (and for thier sake they should find something to hide behind) before I took my shot.

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