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Is it really an eagle? - Page 3

post #37 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremie Boop View Post
 

I understand what you are saying, but if you play a course and it has the par stated on the card that doesn't match those numbers do you change what the card says? Do you go into the clubhouse afterwords and tell them it's wrong? I'm not arguing that the hole is crazy short for a par 5, that much is obvious. If I were to talk about getting an eagle on this hole I'd qualify it by saying "but it was only 360 yards so it was basically a birdie on a par 4 anywhere else". The guy was just asking if it should count as an eagle, which I do just for the fact that the course said it is.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by M2R View Post
 

 

While that is possible I think it is more likely the tees were only rated for women and if they had both women and men ratings the par would appear on the scorecard as 5/4, at least that is fairly common here when forward tees on holes this short have both ratings.

 

In any case regarding distances (my emphasis added):

 

If the card says its a par 5 then its is a par 5. Some courses have a different par for the short tees. 

 

For example, hole number 9 on a course I play, it plays as a par 5 for the shorter tees. I understand if they happen to rotate forward, but the par is the par for the hole. They just expect those will less skill to play forward so they adjust the par accordingly. If the hole stays a par 5, then it plays as a par 5 for all the tees. That is how the course is set up. Doesn't matter if it is 350 yards or not, its a par 5. 

post #38 of 55

I agree that if all the card lists is par 5 then it is played as a par 5 (even if that is known to be a ladies par rating).  I have played in forward tournaments several times where it was stipulated that the par and handicap hole designation for the ladies would be used just so everyone was on the same page.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremie Boop View Post
 

I understand what you are saying, but if you play a course and it has the par stated on the card that doesn't match those numbers do you change what the card says? Do you go into the clubhouse afterwords and tell them it's wrong? I'm not arguing that the hole is crazy short for a par 5, that much is obvious. If I were to talk about getting an eagle on this hole I'd qualify it by saying "but it was only 360 yards so it was basically a birdie on a par 4 anywhere else". The guy was just asking if it should count as an eagle, which I do just for the fact that the course said it is.

 

@Jeremie Boop yea the chart wasn't directed at you just someone earlier asked if length guidelines existed and I put in in the same post, sorry for the confusion.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by saevel25 View Post
 

 

 

If the card says its a par 5 then its is a par 5. Some courses have a different par for the short tees. 

 

For example, hole number 9 on a course I play, it plays as a par 5 for the shorter tees. I understand if they happen to rotate forward, but the par is the par for the hole. They just expect those will less skill to play forward so they adjust the par accordingly. If the hole stays a par 5, then it plays as a par 5 for all the tees. That is how the course is set up. Doesn't matter if it is 350 yards or not, its a par 5. 

 

I'm not saying it is or isn't, all I'm saying is that in my experience for tees that short with both men and women ratings it is common to carry 5/4 designations (and even 6/5 sometimes). Far Corner comes to mind off the top of my head, notice that from the scorecard picture here it is not possible to tell which tees are rated how.

 

I would be very interested to see an example of a hole 360 yards long with official USGA men and women ratings that I can look up in the database rated 5 for both. I know it could exist and would be interested to see one since I obviously haven't played every tee on every course. Plus that isn't consistent with my understanding of how courses are rated so it would be interesting from that angle as well.

 

 

post #39 of 55
Would you wonder if you got an ace on a 200 yd par 3? Would it be any less of an ace if it was a 90 yard par 3? An ace is an ace, and eagle is an eagle. According to the card.

I feel the same way at a local course that has a Par 6- it's no monster at 620 or something, but a 5 is a birdie- ACCORDING TO THE CARD.
post #40 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by RayG View Post

Would you wonder if you got an ace on a 200 yd par 3? Would it be any less of an ace if it was a 90 yard par 3? An ace is an ace, and eagle is an eagle. According to the card.

I feel the same way at a local course that has a Par 6- it's no monster at 620 or something, but a 5 is a birdie- ACCORDING TO THE CARD.


There is a little 9 hole course I used to play occasionally that had different tees for the "back nine".

 

The 18th hole was only about 65 yards and one day I only missed a "hole in one" (:hmm:) by about 1/2 inch. When I was done the woman running the clubhouse said "I saw you almost make a hole in one."

 

I don't think I would have considered it as a real hole in one, but I guess technically it would have been. After all it's not our fault that a hole is too short and you certainly couldn't legitimately call it a par 2 either.

 

Funny thing about that little course was that it also had a 235 yard par three with a tree right in the way that's the hardest par 3 I ever played and then the 65 yard par 3 that's the easiest par three I ever played. 

 

They cancelled each other out on the scorecard I guess. :-D

post #41 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by RayG View Post

Would you wonder if you got an ace on a 200 yd par 3? Would it be any less of an ace if it was a 90 yard par 3? An ace is an ace, and eagle is an eagle. According to the card.

I feel the same way at a local course that has a Par 6- it's no monster at 620 or something, but a 5 is a birdie- ACCORDING TO THE CARD.

You can't compare a hole in one with an eagle, they are totally different, and of course one happens many, many times more than the other.  

 

Reducing a 150 yard par 3 to 100 yards won't give that much more of a chance to hit a hole in one, but if you decrease the length of a par 5 by 33% you certainly have a much greater chance of getting an eagle.

 

I could never class this as a legitimate eagle.

post #42 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepsiplusconker View Post
 

You can't compare a hole in one with an eagle, they are totally different, and of course one happens many, many times more than the other. 

Sure you can.  When people ask me how many eagles I have, I include my hole in one in that total.

 

They are sometimes totally different, but not always totally different.  Heck, eagles in and of themselves can be totally different, as can hole-in-ones.

 

But for this thread, I think the right answer is probably what @M2R said.  The next time I come across a course that has rated tees for men that include a 360 yard par 5 will be the first time.  This isn't really anymore than a birdie on a SHORT par 4.

 

There is a hole at the local Par 3 course, that I play every couple of weeks (sometimes with @jefkve ) that is 210 yards long and they call it a Par 4.  There are two tee boxes, and when they use the left tee box, it's a "legitimate" (albeit easy) par 4, in that you can't aim for the green because there is a row of big trees in the way.  Unless you want to try and hit a giant hook with a 4 iron or hybrid (which is not recommended because its all carry over a pond) then you just chip an 8 iron or something out to the right and pitch on from there.  However, there is a tee box to the right and forward about 15 yards, such that there is a perfect line of sight to the green and it's only 195-200 yards long.  The card still says "par 4," but it's really nothing more than a very difficult par 3.  (It's a beginners/juniors course, so it's a completely legitimate par 4 for them no matter where the tees are, but not for me.)  I couldn't, with a good conscience, go around bragging about an eagle on that hole, nor would I add it (unless it was with a caveat and a chuckle) to my tally.

post #43 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfingdad View Post
There is a hole at the local Par 3 course, that I play every couple of weeks (sometimes with

@jefkve ) that is 210 yards long and they call it a Par 4.  There are two tee boxes, and when they use the left tee box, it's a "legitimate" (albeit easy) par 4, in that you can't aim for the green because there is a row of big trees in the way.  Unless you want to try and hit a giant hook with a 4 iron or hybrid (which is not recommended because its all carry over a pond) then you just chip an 8 iron or something out to the right and pitch on from there.  However, there is a tee box to the right and forward about 15 yards, such that there is a perfect line of sight to the green and it's only 195-200 yards long.  The card still says "par 4," but it's really nothing more than a very difficult par 3.  (It's a beginners/juniors course, so it's a completely legitimate par 4 for them no matter where the tees are, but not for me.)  I couldn't, with a good conscience, go around bragging about an eagle on that hole, nor would I add it (unless it was with a caveat and a chuckle) to my tally.

Illustrating @Golfingdads point. Again, its a par 4 from the back left tees, not so much from the front right...

 

post #44 of 55

If the tees you played had a course and slope rating for men, then it's an eagle.  If it didn't, then it's not.  Pretty simple IMO.  The funny thing is that you can shoot a 70 on a really short easy course with ratings so low it could actually raise your index.  

post #45 of 55

While I agree 390 is a short par 5 and because OP was rotating tees so they probably were not appropriate tees for him I find it laughable at people who say an eagle on a 450 par 5 isn't really an eagle. So you want people to tee it forward to appropriate tees which most would probably be the "front tees" but not count eagles on a common place 450 yard par 5s. Not everybody drives the ball 300 yards and has a 170 yard 8 iron in their bag. Sounds like some folks just want to look down on others because they are better golfers and then wonder why people are playing further back than they should. 

 

450 yard for "normal" people is a 250 yard drive and a 200 yard 3 wood into a green. That is not an easy 3 for most people. 

post #46 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by whatwoodtigerdo View Post
 

While I agree 390 is a short par 5 and because OP was rotating tees so they probably were not appropriate tees for him I find it laughable at people who say an eagle on a 450 par 5 isn't really an eagle. So you want people to tee it forward to appropriate tees which most would probably be the "front tees" but not count eagles on a common place 450 yard par 5s. Not everybody drives the ball 300 yards and has a 170 yard 8 iron in their bag. Sounds like some folks just want to look down on others because they are better golfers and then wonder why people are playing further back than they should. 

 

450 yard for "normal" people is a 250 yard drive and a 200 yard 3 wood into a green. That is not an easy 3 for most people. 


Good point.

 

Play it forward because you aren't good enough but we'll make fun of you and pooh pooh everything good you do from up there. :loco:

post #47 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by whatwoodtigerdo View Post
 

While I agree 390 is a short par 5 and because OP was rotating tees so they probably were not appropriate tees for him I find it laughable at people who say an eagle on a 450 par 5 isn't really an eagle. So you want people to tee it forward to appropriate tees which most would probably be the "front tees" but not count eagles on a common place 450 yard par 5s. Not everybody drives the ball 300 yards and has a 170 yard 8 iron in their bag. Sounds like some folks just want to look down on others because they are better golfers and then wonder why people are playing further back than they should. 

 

450 yard for "normal" people is a 250 yard drive and a 200 yard 3 wood into a green. That is not an easy 3 for most people. 

I find a 450 yard par 5 is often a 5 because of reasons other than distance.

 

I have 2 on my course, one is 460 exactly and the other is about 475.

 

The first is normally against wind, with water infront of the whole green, about 40 yards deep, so hitting the green in two requires a pretty good drive and as good a second shot.

 

The other plays 25 metres uphill (80feet) tee to green, so again, tough to hit it in two.

post #48 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepsiplusconker View Post
 

I find a 450 yard par 5 is often a 5 because of reasons other than distance.

 

I have 2 on my course, one is 460 exactly and the other is about 475.

 

The first is normally against wind, with water infront of the whole green, about 40 yards deep, so hitting the green in two requires a pretty good drive and as good a second shot.

 

The other plays 25 metres uphill (80feet) tee to green, so again, tough to hit it in two.


Yep. The hardest par 5 of all of the ones I have played is number 5 at Trenton Golf Course. Only about 455-60 yards from the tips. Doglegs up the side of a steep ridge, never anything remotely comfortable about any shot on the hole, and you never see the green until you are on it. If you make a par you walk off happy, no matter who you are.

post #49 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfingdad View Post
 

Sure you can.  When people ask me how many eagles I have, I include my hole in one in that total.

 

They are sometimes totally different, but not always totally different.  Heck, eagles in and of themselves can be totally different, as can hole-in-ones.

 

But for this thread, I think the right answer is probably what @M2R said.  The next time I come across a course that has rated tees for men that include a 360 yard par 5 will be the first time.  This isn't really anymore than a birdie on a SHORT par 4.

 

There is a hole at the local Par 3 course, that I play every couple of weeks (sometimes with @jefkve ) that is 210 yards long and they call it a Par 4.  There are two tee boxes, and when they use the left tee box, it's a "legitimate" (albeit easy) par 4, in that you can't aim for the green because there is a row of big trees in the way.  Unless you want to try and hit a giant hook with a 4 iron or hybrid (which is not recommended because its all carry over a pond) then you just chip an 8 iron or something out to the right and pitch on from there.  However, there is a tee box to the right and forward about 15 yards, such that there is a perfect line of sight to the green and it's only 195-200 yards long.  The card still says "par 4," but it's really nothing more than a very difficult par 3.  (It's a beginners/juniors course, so it's a completely legitimate par 4 for them no matter where the tees are, but not for me.)  I couldn't, with a good conscience, go around bragging about an eagle on that hole, nor would I add it (unless it was with a caveat and a chuckle) to my tally.

My point was that shooting a bread a butter Eagle on a par 5 500 yard hole that is shortened 33% to 335 yards is a hell of a lot more likely than if you shorten a par 3 from 150 to 100 yards.

 

I mean, you're going to eagle that short par 5 many, many more times than you would if it was 500 yards, but you won't make many more hole in ones after you shorten the par 3

post #50 of 55

If you post scores for HC purposes, the great equalizer is the course rating.   If you ever wonder why a par72 course has a CR in the 60's......read this thread.  For reality check, the true course par of any golf course is the CR.  If you play from tees with a 69.5CR....the true course par is just that.  IE.........An 82 is 5 shots better on a course with a 74CR compared to a course with a 69 rating. 

post #51 of 55

Lol, actually at a course near me, they were working on the railroad tracks that run parallel to the par-5 9th hole. They blocked off most of the hole so they could have a place for the equipment, so they turned a 500 yd par-5 into a 65yd Par-5. lol

post #52 of 55

Its an eagle.  We have a 412 yard par 5 from the back tees at my local that is hard.  Its probably 390ish from the front tees and about 360 from the women's.  It has water and bunkers about 250-270 off the tee.  If you carry them, you can hit a wedge to an easy green for eagle.  If you don't carry them, your up the creek.  Please note virtually everyone I play with snorts at the 250 carry and hits it short.  The trouble goes across the whole hole from trees on the left to trees on the right. If you lay up short of all the stuff you still have a long shot into the green.  Its like an hourglass that pinches in from 255-275 and has nothing but bunkers and water and usually you have to go backwards from the bunkers.  Its an interesting risk-reward hole b/c its probably the easiest par on the course (I hit 7 iron, 7 iron, SW) but if you try for lower than par you can easily end up with a 7 or an 8.

 

Length of the hole isn't important.  Its an eagle.  Great job!

post #53 of 55

I see all types of crazy holes where yardage is just a number relative to the overall difficulty. A few with sub 300 yd par 4's that can't be reached due to obstacles. Trees so big you can't get around them without hitting some kind of Bubba like trick shot. Can't even get it close because the trees make it a forced layup, I play the hole with two wedge shots because there really isn't another way around it. In most instances really just the only way to use the available land and almost always come with a low CR if the rest of the course doesn't make up for it. Same with the overly long par 5's. If it's just straight and long really no big deal. A local course has a 696 yd par 5, it's 633 from the tees I play. So severely downhill a couple of solid 3w's gets a long hitter home in two. I don't walk up to a short par 4 or 5 and think go for it often. There is usually something to discourage it. If I played a course with a hole like that and the eagle opportunity was an every day occurrence I'd question it but my experience is the shorter than usual holes that aren't par 3's are usually the risk/reward holes.

post #54 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave2512 View Post
 

my experience is the shorter than usual holes that aren't par 3's are usually the risk/reward holes.

 

I agree, they always have trouble at typical long drive distances, and/or right around the green.

 

"Good" short 4's are usually the very FUN holes where you need to 'think' a bit rather than just grab driver/wedge.....

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