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Great putting is just luck, why we should make the cup bigger. - Page 3

post #37 of 105
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by walk18 View Post

No thanks, I'd rather just stick to playing golf, frustrating as it may be.


d2_doh.gif

 

So a 6 inch holes automatically makes it a whole different game?

post #38 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by jshots View Post

 

I know for a fact that my stroke isn't perfect every day, but what I'm saying is that even when my stroke is good I have days where on paper you wouldn't know it just because nothing will go down. I honestly don't think that it is due to "poor" green reading. I play the same 2 courses 99% of my rounds and I read the greens every day.

 

I gaurantee that on top of those rounds where you miss 3 or 4 inside of five feet, you occasionally have rounds where you drain more putts than normal. So do you think that on those days, all of a sudden, your green reading skill increased just for the day? Only to go back to normal for the large majority of your rounds... you can't account that to skill.

Well, yes it is very possible that your green reading was either on, or off. Your touch, tempo, feel, speed, stroke etc. is also more than capable of changing from day to day, or hour to hour - and it often does.

post #39 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by jshots View Post

 


 

You can only get so good at putting. And no matter how good you get, you'll never make more than a few long putts, at least no one ever has.

 

 

Yeah no shit skill will always prevail, it still would with a bigger cup. A 1-2 inch bigger hole is not going to allow everyone to one putt every single time. It would make putting more fun by increasing the chance of rewarding a good approach shot.

 

No. Putting isn't supposed to be easy. You are not supposed to make every 20 footer. Its your punishment for hitting your shot so far from the hole.

 

I HATE this idea that we should make the game easier so that those who choose not to put in the work the game requires can have a better chance at being even with those who do? No, that is not the solution. Putting is not luck, period. Green reading, pace, tempo, and stroke are all very technical things.

 

The funny thing is, almost everyone in this thread disagrees with you, yet you keep spouting the same nonsense that we disagree with.

 

Wanna make more putts? PRACTICE. The last thing golfers want is the game to be dumbed down and made easier so just anybody can shoot par. If the hole was 2 inches bigger, i'd be in the mid 60's almost every round, and a lof pro's would be hitting 18-22 putts per round. Just a bad, bad, bad idea. Want the game to get easier, practice.

 

Earn your score, instead of rallying to have it given to you.

post #40 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by jshots View Post


d2_doh.gif

 

So a 6 inch holes automatically makes it a whole different game?


It makes it easier, and we dont want the game to be easier.

 

Your logi0c is no better than anyone elses. Putting is a very technical thing, there is no luck involved.

post #41 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by jshots View Post

Putting is far far less about skill and practice than any other part of the game. Where do you even get that idea that it is more?

 

 

Ok, you have lost any and all credibility with that statement. Don't know how I missed it the first read, b8ut wow. You must play a different game than I do. Are the greens at your course flat opr something?

post #42 of 105

With this logic of blaming missed putts on the size of the hole, you could also say "Hey, my Driver isn't always good but I'll tell you what... get rid of the rough and bunkers and my FIR would drastically increase!". Of course it would! That is why it cannot happen.

 

Just because you're too short to dunk or make it to the NBA doesn't mean that the regulation height should be lowered to 9ft.

 

Just because you can't afford a Lambo doesn't mean that we should start an indiegogo.com fundraiser for you to drive one.

 

In short, you get what you put in. That applies to everything in life in general, not just golf. Stop looking for handouts at other people's expense.

post #43 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by jshots View Post

 

It would make the game more fun, it would make putting more fun. It would make putting more fun to watch on TV. I personally consider anything inside 20 feet on an approach a good shot. Not just for me, but for anybody no matter the skill level. But from 15-20 feet, it's rare that someone is rewarded with a birdie.

 

 

 

No, it would not make the game more fun, it would make it easier. The two don't go hand in hand, just because you want it to. 15-20 feet is not a good shot, its a good miss. Inside 10 feet is a good shot. Inside 5 is a great one. I have never, ever heard a good golfer say 'I want it within 20 feet', because 20 feet is a long miss with a wedge or short iron.

 

The funny thing is, you are convinced you are right, even though everyone else in this thread has disagreed with you. Nobody else wants a bigger hole, so stop trying to convince us we do.

post #44 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by jshots View Post

 

It would make the game more fun, it would make putting more fun. It would make putting more fun to watch on TV. I personally consider anything inside 20 feet on an approach a good shot. Not just for me, but for anybody no matter the skill level. But from 15-20 feet, it's rare that someone is rewarded with a birdie.

 

 

Easier isn't more fun, it's just easier.  I play golf because it challenges me, mentally and physically.  I play it because it's hard.  I already find putting to be the easiest part of the game. Why dumb it down any more?   I have too many days where my tee and iron game is the stuff nightmares are made of, but my chipping and putting are what keep me coming back.  The reason?  I practice my short game far more than I ever have the long game, and that practice translates directly into lower scores on the course.  Although I have bad days like anyone else, the most consistent part of my game is from 20 yards in, and that comes from practice. 

 

You say that you can't become a better putter by practicing? e3_rolleyes.gif I'd love to see you run that theory by Phil Mickelson sometime.  Some of the things you say just leave me speechless.  Makes me wonder just how long you've actually been playing golf.  g1_wacko.gif

post #45 of 105
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ApocG10 View Post

 

No. Putting isn't supposed to be easy. You are not supposed to make every 20 footer. Its your punishment for hitting your shot so far from the hole.

 

I HATE this idea that we should make the game easier so that those who choose not to put in the work the game requires can have a better chance at being even with those who do? No, that is not the solution. Putting is not luck, period. Green reading, pace, tempo, and stroke are all very technical things.

 

The funny thing is, almost everyone in this thread disagrees with you, yet you keep spouting the same nonsense that we disagree with.

 

Wanna make more putts? PRACTICE. The last thing golfers want is the game to be dumbed down and made easier so just anybody can shoot par. If the hole was 2 inches bigger, i'd be in the mid 60's almost every round, and a lof pro's would be hitting 18-22 putts per round. Just a bad, bad, bad idea. Want the game to get easier, practice.

 

Earn your score, instead of rallying to have it given to you.

 

You think I don't practice putting, you think that I just want putting to be easier for me so I can shoot better scores, you aren't getting the idea at all. You haven't even comprehended what this thread is about. ITS NOT ABOUT MY PUTTING. My putting is as good as any 7.5 handicap that I know, better than some. I'm not worried about how well I putt because my putting is good. Just because everyone disagrees doesn't mean I'm spouting nonsense since you choose to ignore what I'm saying. I'm sorry that I'm so stupid that I can't comprehend that a 5 or 6 inch hole would dumb the game down so much that any player can shoot par.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ApocG10 View Post


It makes it easier, and we dont want the game to be easier.

 

Your logi0c is no better than anyone elses. Putting is a very technical thing, there is no luck involved.

     Quote:

Originally Posted by ApocG10 View Post

 

 

Ok, you have lost any and all credibility with that statement. Don't know how I missed it the first read, b8ut wow. You must play a different game than I do. Are the greens at your course flat opr something?

 

It's incredibly naive to say there is no luck involved in putting.You could put in 80 hours of putting practice in a week, and by the end of the week you would be some small fraction better at putting than when you started. Compared to the full swing, compared to short game, putting takes far less practice. I'm trying to have a decent discussion here and you are just attacking me. I play in the middle of the rocky mountains where courses (and their greens) are on the sides of mountains and extremely dry.

post #46 of 105

I usually don't miss by an inch or two and some do roll in. I don't think making the hole just a little bigger would change my 2.1 putting average and 90% of the time I am happy lagging it close and tapping in. It would need to be enlarged to a coffee can size to change that. That and how well I putt is directly related to how good my approach shot is. Unfortunately the 1 putts usually come after missing a green and the chip that follows.

post #47 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by jshots View Post

 

You think I don't practice putting, you think that I just want putting to be easier for me so I can shoot better scores, you aren't getting the idea at all. You haven't even comprehended what this thread is about. ITS NOT ABOUT MY PUTTING. My putting is as good as any 7.5 handicap that I know, better than some. I'm not worried about how well I putt because my putting is good. Just because everyone disagrees doesn't mean I'm spouting nonsense since you choose to ignore what I'm saying. I'm sorry that I'm so stupid that I can't comprehend that a 5 or 6 inch hole would dumb the game down so much that any player can shoot par.

 

     Quote:

 

It's incredibly naive to say there is no luck involved in putting.You could put in 80 hours of putting practice in a week, and by the end of the week you would be some small fraction better at putting than when you started. Compared to the full swing, compared to short game, putting takes far less practice. I'm trying to have a decent discussion here and you are just attacking me. I play in the middle of the rocky mountains where courses (and their greens) are on the sides of mountains and extremely dry.

 

I've played 99% of my golf in Colorado.  Prairie, foothills, mountains.  Golf is golf, wherever it's played. 

 

It's naive to say that there's no luck involved in just about any human endeavor, but that's no reason to try and fix something that isn't broken in the first place.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave2512 View Post

I usually don't miss by an inch or two and some do roll in. I don't think making the hole just a little bigger would change my 2.1 putting average and 90% of the time I am happy lagging it close and tapping in. It would need to be enlarged to a coffee can size to change that. That and how well I putt is directly related to how good my approach shot is. Unfortunately the 1 putts usually come after missing a green and the chip that follows.

 

Which is true of most of us.  What my practice has given me though, is the confidence to make a good stroke when I'm looking at that 5 footer to save par.  Too many players I know would still be more likely to 2 putt from there, not because of bad luck, but because they just don't practice it enough.  That absolute certainty that every time I set up to one of them, I'm going to make it (and no I don't always make it, but I always approach it with that sort of mindset).

post #48 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by jshots View Post

 


 

It's incredibly naive to say there is no luck involved in putting.You could put in 80 hours of putting practice in a week, and by the end of the week you would be some small fraction better at putting than when you started. Compared to the full swing, compared to short game, putting takes far less practice. I'm trying to have a decent discussion here and you are just attacking me. I play in the middle of the rocky mountains where courses (and their greens) are on the sides of mountains and extremely dry.

 

Im not attacking you, im just saying that you are wrong.

 

No, there is no luck in putting (no more than any other part of the game), unless your greens are so rough that the ball doesn't roll true. Having a repeating putting stroke, hitting the ball square, distance control, etc etc, is far from luck. Its hard work and practice. It is what seperates the good from the bad.

 

You are completely wrong if you think practicing putting 40 hours (lets not pick a ridiculous number like 80 hours) a week would not make someone a vastly better putter, then I don't know what to say aside from you are wrong. Practice makes you better. Thats why the weekend duffer will never be as good as a serious golfer. They don't put in the practice needed. And practicing has made my game noticibly better.

post #49 of 105
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ApocG10 View Post

Im not attacking you, im just saying that you are wrong.

 

No, there is no luck in putting (no more than any other part of the game), unless your greens are so rough that the ball doesn't roll true. Having a repeating putting stroke, hitting the ball square, distance control, etc etc, is far from luck. Its hard work and practice. It is what seperates the good from the bad.

 

You are completely wrong if you think practicing putting 40 hours (lets not pick a ridiculous number like 80 hours) a week would not make someone a vastly better putter, then I don't know what to say aside from you are wrong. Practice makes you better. Thats why the weekend duffer will never be as good as a serious golfer. They don't put in the practice needed. And practicing has made my game noticibly better.

 

How do you quantify vastly better? For me, If I were to vastly improve my putting, my stats would be better than a PGA tour pro... You think I could do that in 40 hours? There is a ceiling on putting practice that is shorter than any other type of shot on the golf course. The putting stroke is not difficult to master, especially when compared to the full swing.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post

It's naive to say that there's no luck involved in just about any human endeavor, but that's no reason to try and fix something that isn't broken in the first place.

 

Which is true of most of us.  What my practice has given me though, is the confidence to make a good stroke when I'm looking at that 5 footer to save par.  Too many players I know would still be more likely to 2 putt from there, not because of bad luck, but because they just don't practice it enough.  That absolute certainty that every time I set up to one of them, I'm going to make it (and no I don't always make it, but I always approach it with that sort of mindset).

 

I am confident I can drain most of my 5 footers to save par. I'm confident that when I have a 10 footer, I will do everything in my power to put that in the hole, but that doesn't mean I will make it. I personally would appreciate if my good strokes from 12 feet were rewarded more than 1/4 of the time. Like the one sits on the edge of the cup because you needed to aim a fraction of a degree more to the right. My eye can't see a fraction of a degree. Or the one that if hit with 95% of the power that I hit it with would've gone in the hole. I can't feel the difference between a 100% of that putt and 95%. Could I improve that? Maybe, but it would probably take hundreds of hours of putting practice.

post #50 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by walk18 View Post

No thanks, I'd rather just stick to playing golf, frustrating as it may be.

Well this is all hypothetical because they aren't goin to make the hole any bigger and we all know that...so I was basically presenting both sides of the story from my perspective. 

post #51 of 105
Thread Starter 

I understand that putting takes skill. But what is it that causes someone to have a total lights out day when that is not the norm? They are "in the zone"? Then why do people so rarely, even pros, get "in the zone".

 

If lights out putting is not luck, then it must come from skill. If skill can be improved from practice, and being "in the zone" is not just dumb luck, then shouldn't someone be able to practice being "in the zone"?

 

Don't think of this in terms of an amateur going from being a bad putter to a good putter by practicing. Think of it in terms of a good putter going from having a good day to a great day. Good days being common, great days being rare.

post #52 of 105

Keep the hole the way it is.  I want the game frustrating and hard....accomplishing the next milestone is just that much more rewarding.

post #53 of 105

JSHOTS

 

I kind of get where your coming from with the "it will make the game more fun" stand point. But what you mean is, we would all be a little more successful putting, so we would score better, and have a better time.

You can say this for many sports such as snooker, you ever played? It is stupidly hard, but you can't complain and say "they should make the pockets bigger because I made one great shot on the red, but then missed an easy black"

 

Its just a part of the game which has a tiny margin for error, when you drive a ball off the tee, you can hit a huge space in comparison and consider it a successful shot, same with an approach, you hit a circle 5ft around the hole, and you consider that successful. 

 

Someone made a good thread about how "In golf you have to play perfect every shot"

post #54 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepsiplusconker View Post

 

Someone made a good thread about how "In golf you have to play perfect every shot"

 

I made a par putt this weekend after hitting the ball into the bunker on my second shot.  I actually think there's a lot of room for error in golf...just not on the green.  Maybe in context, that's what this person was saying.

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