Stack and tilt is a push draw pattern, but just change some attachments to play a fade with it.
Whether you're five keys or stack and tilt, the lesson process with most amateurs is the same. I guessed each fix you and Chuck gave the students in your DVD because I've had multiple lessons with Steve Sieracki, Lainey Gunning, and Dave Quinn. I practice at the S&T academy regularly, so I constantly get to observe lessons and clinics. The goal is the same: find the priority piece or pieces, and explain that to the student so they can understand. Increase the explanation if they still don't understand thru better language, video, feel suggestions, or just straight up holding them and making the movements for them.
Now, you guys might disagree on the priority piece of a good player, and I think that's where the differences start to show -- besides theoretical stuff like weight location on the backswing.
Is five keys S&T? No, but the lesson process with amateur players is very much the same. You go get a S&T lesson and you'll see the same efficiency with their students. You'll see that the lesson process in-person throws the books and pencils out the window and you just get the exact thing you need to work on (and of course, I know you, Dave, are S&T authorized and the respect you have for it. I meant more the general "you").
The most common problems and some of their fixes, which I assume is 100% agreed upon by both philosophies:
1. Flipping -- chip drill, flat wrist, or feel arched/palmar flexed in certain situations, elbows together, straight arms, half swings for the majority of all fixes
2. No hip slide -- multiple fixes for this, like ankle rolling, more weight forward at setup, introduce feet flare out, change stance width if that is an issue
3. Excessive shoulder rotation -- likely needs more hip slide, close shoulders at address
4. Hips sliding back on backswing -- more weight forward at setup.
5. Arm lifting -- more hand depth, tees under armpits drill (same if arms detach from body on through swing)
6. Forearm rolling on backswing and the club getting behind you -- more Ricky fowler
7. Trail arm bending beyond 90 degrees -- feel straight trail arm the whole time
8. Arms retracting on downswing -- a) feel straight arms the whole time b) hit punch shots c) squeeze elbows together d) more wrist arch can help too
9. head dipping on backswing -- wall drill, more extension, spine straightening
10. Shoulders too flat on backswing -- shoulder turns steeper and more downward, wall drill, straighten trail leg
11. Losing inclination to the ground on downswing -- more hip slide, wall drill, maybe feel like you are increasing tilt, hit punch shots
12. Early extension -- more hip slide, stay in tilt, wall drill
13. No extension and flipping -- seems like the most common problem; use chip drill feeling hip slide and an arched wrist
14. Too much wrist arch, handle getting too high -- feel more flipping, losing the wedge, or explaining to the student that the handle can't keep rising because the path goes too far in to out.
(generally feel the opposite of what you do naturally. Like all sliding and no rotation if you are all rotation)
So is it mostly on the highest levels of sophistication where the two sides can begin to disagree? Or do you believe that 5sK instructors are better equipped to find the student's priority piece and not make a mistake? Because S&T teachers certainly aren't infallible.
As I've said many times already, Five Keys is great and the DVDs are too. But since this thread exists, it's my chance to share my thoughts on 5sK and S&T. And I know the 5sK guys have an enormous respect for S&T, so this isn't meant to be read as some kind of confrontational or argumentative post. It's just my observations of both methods in action. Thanks for reading. I look forward to continue learning more stuff from you guys as time goes by, and I'm very likely to get a lesson or two from Mario Bevelaqua in Colts Neck, NJ sometime very soon