PureStrike 5SK, Stack and Tilt, Etc. - Page 2

The statement Dave made on Key #5 - Clubface Control... I was a bit surprised TGM / Homer Kelley wasn't referenced, again.  I love Trackman and think it is an excellent tool.  But the mechanics of clubface control are tackled within TGM at length.  Whereas Trackman is simply a tool to monitor those mechanics detailed within TGM.

 

This is just a simple comment - and my opinion or response to the thread.  My end take is that I'm very appreciative of the analysis, time and research Dave & Chuck (and I'm sure dozens of others behind the scenes (Erik)) put in to making the 5SK system what it is today... An easy to communicate system to improving ones golf game.

 

And Dave - I really appreciate the Evolvr system, and what it has done for my own game (affordable instruction).  So I hope you and the team at Golf Evolution (Evolvr team included) have nothing but success.

 

Lastly, Chuck - have you actually seen Mac's cataloged work?  It's something a lot of golfers have talked about - and even on Mac's site - he states that after 21yrs of research, in 2006 he was going to publish a book.  But as we know, there is no such book that is readily available to the public.  Therefore, I also ask - if you have seen Mac's catalog of work - any idea or update as to when the MORAD folks are actually going to publish their 'catalog' system?  Just curious - and only bringing it up since the topic was broached here.

 

I disagree. If you're talking about 2-G I really disagree. TGM is showing its age. No doubt that Homer did a great job with the available tech he had, and that it'd still be a relevant book if he was alive today to update it, but it's long in the tooth and has some things wrong.

 

I will point out the obvious, though: Mac O'Grady, Andy and Mike, Dave, Me, Chuck (big duh there) are are fruits of the TGM tree. Some of us have rolled farther forward than others is all. ;)

 

 

It won't be published. Maybe someone will publish something after Mac dies or something, but I don't think he's publishing anything while he's alive.

 

As you know Erik, I'm at the stage where I'm in the beginning of my journey of educating myself on the geometry and physics that truly make up the golf swing.  I haven't reached a point - and perhaps never will - which is advanced as yours. So I'm not sure what was published by TGM, that is now actually thought to be null and void.  

 

But TGM addresses the hands/wrist/pressure points and power accumulators to manipulate both club shaft and face within the book at length.  And clubface control (Key 5), is highlighted in chapter 4 (wrist positions), 6 (power accumulator #3) and 2 (hinging) - to which Homer states has direct influence on the face of the club at impact.

 

I'll send you a PM. Key #5 is just pointing the clubface in the right position for the shot and curve at hand. Hinge actions... not so relevant. 

Just wanted to send a thank you for all the information you guys put forward. I have been out of work for a few months so spending the $$ on the DVD wouldn't go over real well with the wife but it will be one of the first things I treat myself to when able. The passion you all have for the golf swing and sharing that information comes through on almost every post. Keep it up as for guys like myself it is how I am able to try and improve my swing on my own.

 

As far as TGM and clubface control, hinging is only part of it.  Mr. Kelley DID say, long before anyone else, that the ball will start at practically right angles to the leading edge of the clubface.  He never said it would start 100% to the leading edge.  Isn't that essentially what Trackman tells us?

 

Another piece that gets over looked, even by those supposedly in the know about the book, is the fact that Mr. Kelley discusses - briefly - the D-Plane, without calling it that.  First paragraph 2-N-0...clubhead line of flight.

Stack and tilt is a push draw pattern, but just change some attachments to play a fade with it.

Whether you're five keys or stack and tilt, the lesson process with most amateurs is the same. I guessed each fix you and Chuck gave the students in your DVD because I've had multiple lessons with Steve Sieracki, Lainey Gunning, and Dave Quinn. I practice at the S&T academy regularly, so I constantly get to observe lessons and clinics. The goal is the same: find the priority piece or pieces, and explain that to the student so they can understand. Increase the explanation if they still don't understand thru better language, video, feel suggestions, or just straight up holding them and making the movements for them.

Now, you guys might disagree on the priority piece of a good player, and I think that's where the differences start to show -- besides theoretical stuff like weight location on the backswing.

Is five keys S&T? No, but the lesson process with amateur players is very much the same. You go get a S&T lesson and you'll see the same efficiency with their students. You'll see that the lesson process in-person throws the books and pencils out the window and you just get the exact thing you need to work on (and of course, I know you, Dave, are S&T authorized and the respect you have for it. I meant more the general "you").

The most common problems and some of their fixes, which I assume is 100% agreed upon by both philosophies:

1. Flipping -- chip drill, flat wrist, or feel arched/palmar flexed in certain situations, elbows together, straight arms, half swings for the majority of all fixes
2. No hip slide -- multiple fixes for this, like ankle rolling, more weight forward at setup, introduce feet flare out, change stance width if that is an issue
3. Excessive shoulder rotation -- likely needs more hip slide, close shoulders at address
4. Hips sliding back on backswing -- more weight forward at setup.
5. Arm lifting -- more hand depth, tees under armpits drill (same if arms detach from body on through swing)
6. Forearm rolling on backswing and the club getting behind you -- more Ricky fowler
7. Trail arm bending beyond 90 degrees -- feel straight trail arm the whole time
8. Arms retracting on downswing -- a) feel straight arms the whole time b) hit punch shots c) squeeze elbows together d) more wrist arch can help too
9. head dipping on backswing -- wall drill, more extension, spine straightening
10. Shoulders too flat on backswing -- shoulder turns steeper and more downward, wall drill, straighten trail leg
11. Losing inclination to the ground on downswing -- more hip slide, wall drill, maybe feel like you are increasing tilt, hit punch shots
12. Early extension -- more hip slide, stay in tilt, wall drill
13. No extension and flipping -- seems like the most common problem; use chip drill feeling hip slide and an arched wrist
14. Too much wrist arch, handle getting too high -- feel more flipping, losing the wedge, or explaining to the student that the handle can't keep rising because the path goes too far in to out.

(generally feel the opposite of what you do naturally. Like all sliding and no rotation if you are all rotation)

So is it mostly on the highest levels of sophistication where the two sides can begin to disagree? Or do you believe that 5sK instructors are better equipped to find the student's priority piece and not make a mistake? Because S&T teachers certainly aren't infallible.

As I've said many times already, Five Keys is great and the DVDs are too. But since this thread exists, it's my chance to share my thoughts on 5sK and S&T. And I know the 5sK guys have an enormous respect for S&T, so this isn't meant to be read as some kind of confrontational or argumentative post. It's just my observations of both methods in action. Thanks for reading. I look forward to continue learning more stuff from you guys as time goes by, and I'm very likely to get a lesson or two from Mario Bevelaqua in Colts Neck, NJ sometime very soon

JetFan, we (5SK) are being called names, attacked, asked if we've "copied" or "stolen" S&T, etc. in certain places. Dave's post is simply a response to that. He posted it here because it's the safest place he can put it where it won't be deleted by someone.

 

I'll send you a PM, but publicly all I'll say right now is this.

 

1. Everything you listed is how a good instructor would teach any golf swing.
2. We can still obviously teach the S&T swing. We feel, however, that we've "evolved" well beyond teaching only that one swing.
3. We've done a LOT of research. We've investigated a TON of stuff, re-thought, re-checked, re-verified, experimented, etc. We will continue to do so.
4. We took the words "S&T" off the Golf Evolution site, despite being the first "academy" that taught it, in 2010. We haven't suddenly and recently begun evolving.
5. Despite #4 and everything else, I've still said S&T is a great swing to learn. It's a great foundation, and for 80%+ of golfers, they can get better with the "ten words." I still think everyone should read and understand the book, etc. I've done more to support S&T than virtually anyone.

I rewatched the DVD tonight and there are numerous unique interpretations, drills, and approaches towards presenting the material. Clearly there is a lot of overlap with S&T, but much of it explains the mechanics and how to achieve them in a new way. A very useful DVD.

I also read the Facebook thread that somewhat inspired the OP, and now understand where this is coming from. Keep up the good work 5Keys and Golf Evolution.