My Swing (Jetfan1983) - Page 3

I've finally reached a place where I'm working on the same thing now at the range, over and over again. In the past, I've essentially practiced one or two things, and then moved on from it after only 2 or 3 sessions. Now I'm just consistently working on my shaft plane on the downswing, and trying to keep it as shallow as possible. The no.3 accumulator really kicks in hard for me, and I get really steep, and boy, this has been really tough to see much progress in. 

Some good news about my swing though is I seem have command over keys 2 and 3. My head is stable and my weight consistently gets forward. Key no.1 is a bit iffy at times (flat left wrist), but I can fix that pretty easily by feeling a bit more palmar than normal on my downswing and keeping my forearms really close together on the follow through. Essentially, I've never felt this good about the first three keys ever in my golfing life. A huge positive there.

Key no.4 though it seems will take months to improve. It's all I work on anymore. 

It's gotten so crazy, that out on the course, I hit a 1-3 yard fade with every club. I have more than enough power to play the course, and I can score really well with this swing, but I simply cannot play golf thinking about my shaft plane. It's purely a range thing right now, and I really have no clue when I will reach a point where I feel comfortable making a shallower downswing during a round of golf.

So, I doubt there will be many updates here for a while. When I can hit a draw again without thinking about it, I'll post another swing. The good news is that I feel very comfortable with how I'm going about fixing this, so now all I need are tons of range reps. I'm really looking forward to the day I bump this thread again with a series of swing vids that show I've conquered this. Key no.4 -- I've got my sights set on you!

Here's a summary of how I'm fixing key no.4:

1) Shorter backswing to control my right biceps location at A4.

2) A bit more right armpit pressure on the backswing to control my right biceps location at A4

3) Driving my right elbow into my belly button or "squeezing my elbows together" on the downswing to get my right elbow lower than my left at A5.

4) Maintaining the no.3 accumulator (aka Forearm roll) from A5 into A6 by working on elbow locations, but also just by not excessively rolling it so much.

5) Adding a bit more rotary with my hips and shoulders, which I think works well in conjunction with the above based on my current overall pattern.

Right now, a great image for me has been Ricky Fowler's downswing because of just how much I do not do what he does. He is the extreme image I'm working with visually when practicing. Take a look at his swing sometime and see just how much he does what I do not.

I can hit nice push-draws on the range with half-swings doing this, but I can also completely miss the golf ball or heel strike it too. The really-ugly-with-no-compression-push fade seems to be the most common range miss right now. I feel good though. It feels so ridiculously unnatural to do this, but juxtaposing myself with pros, I am 100% convinced this is the most important thing I need to be working on.

Til next time.... 

Wish me luck.

Evolvr's been great and worth every penny so far. I just started with them this week. We've changed some set-up pieces, tweaked my grip, and are working on the backswing right now. 

I've got a long way to go, but evolvr is really good.

Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas 

Quote:

Originally Posted by JetFan1983 

Evolvr's been great and worth every penny so far. I just started with them this week. We've changed some set-up pieces, tweaked my grip, and are working on the backswing right now. 

 

I've got a long way to go, but evolvr is really good.

 

Thanks. Mike and I talked about your swing and were on the same page. Good to see the changes taking shape and looking good already. Expected, but still, good to see. ;) Do you regret not signing up for evolvr a year ago or more? 

Haha, of course. Although, I do have some good reasons for that. You may remember that I spent basically all of 2009 injured. All I did for golf was read TST and the S&T book that year. 2010 was no better. I played 10 times or so because I was heavy into P90X, and felt like I couldn't improve at all at golf, even though I loved it. 2011 was when I said its time to get real lessons, so I met with authorized S&T instructors, but carpel tunnel and weak golf joints, plus poor overall technique prevented me from playing a lot. Still, 2011 was when I got my first taste of hitting the ball solid, and I was hooked more than ever. 

Last year at this time, I could only practice once every four days. My body simply could not handle the golf swing. My joints and various muscles were extremely sore and would take days to recover. I doubt this is normal, but starting golf as an adult is not easy for me. The movements are just so foreign. It was odd because I was in great shape, but I guess golf just requires some different strengths -- at least for me.

Now I can practice every other day, so my "golf strength" is increasing. I didn't sign up for evolvr for this reason. I thought that injuries would derail me. Plus, I do work with S&T people. I did very often last year, but have only had one lesson in the past six months -- with Mike Bennett no less. It was a great experience. But evolvr, man... wow. I'm really liking this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas 

 

P.S. You should post here what Mike told you, at least a shorthand version, so you have it documented. And so others can see.

 

Yea, essentially, Mike changed my grip slightly. My trigger finger was a bit too "on top of the grip," so we moved it more aft. He sent me this video to better understand it, even though he did explain it to me clearly with analyzr and a video:

Second we made some setup changes. We reduced my feet flare out, primarily in the front foot. It feels like I'm not flaring out my feet at all, even though I am. At address, it looks to me like I have no feet flare out, but I'm getting used to how this should look.

The other setup change was changing my neck tilt at address. I had a tendency to tilt my head too much "Jack Nicklaus" where I was tilting my vision towards my back foot. This is good if you need to tilt more to the left, but I do that just fine. Now I tilt my neck more towards my lead foot to promote this new backswing:

You can see the different neck tilt -- I actually fixed some of the tilt already in the left picture thanks to previous help from Mike. It was really tilted the other way four days ago. Oops, now it looks like I'm flaring out my front foot too much still in the right picture. I'll fix that. Sorry, Mike!... actually, the feet flare out looks the same in both pictures. Honestly though, it was worse than this four days ago, so the pic on the left is a reduced version of what I was.

But above was the real problem. Mike said he sees this in students of S&T quite a bit. On the left, I'm really trying to get my weight forward in the backswing by applying a ton of front foot pressure in the ball of the lead foot. But, as you can see, I'm overdoing it. My head is tipping forward, and as a result, I have to tip it back on the downswing, which is too difficult to time. In the swing on the right, I'm making a centered pivot, so we went over the nuances of me getting that with really just an excellent video Mike made for me. You can also see the lead knee kicking inward ever so slightly too. It feels like I'm making a "traditional backswing" even though I'm not. Weight feels like its going back and my head feels like its moving back ever so slightly (but not much). Honestly, this backswing felt natural and great to me right away, even if I have to consciously think about it in order to do it still.

Its this picture here though that illustrates the major change. Note the location of my shoulders in both pictures. On the right, with a steadier head, my left shoulder reaches its low point in the center of my stance. On the left, its near my front foot. The backswing in the left picture made my swing ridiculously steep, and I had a ton of trouble controlling curve, especially with driver.

All in all, these first changes were dead on the money what I needed to fix first. Now I can just make a backswing and rip it. I did not understand how this backswing was screwing me up, and I would do it more the worse the curve got on my shots. I didn't understand that this was what was making everything more difficult. Evolvr set me straight.

It may seem like an obvious change to some here, but for me it was not. Coming from S&T, there are just some things I simply ignore checking. This is an example of that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beachcomber 

JetFan, when are you coming to Socal?  We need to tee it up.  Swing looks powerful.  Hopefully I get to this stage soon.

Awesome compliment! I'd love to any time I'm out west! Thanks for the invite, BC! You may hate your swing right now, but you're a 3.0 and I'm not 

Haha, Mike wanted me to post this swing here too:

Seven iron. Note the nerdy tape on my hat so Mike can monitor my neck tilts -- I mean head tilts. Sorry, Mike. Trying to learn your vocabulary here 

Quote:

Originally Posted by 14ledo81 

Wow! This took place in one evolvr lesson? I need to get a decent camera. Many times I feel like I'm close to striking well, I think good instruction would get me over the hump.

This change took one lesson yea, but the tips here were from video two. In video one, we worked on a downswing piece that I had enormous difficulty getting, so Mike re-evaluated and sent me this one instead. This second video was the follow-up video after I sent in more swings where I told him I was having major problems.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beachcomber 

First, when you start using 'Mike' - I'm always wondering if you are talking about Bennett or mvmac!? 

 

Second, what is your stock shot right now with the driver and iron?  It appears that you have an open stance at address?  Which I'm surprised being a S&T guy that you aren't aimed right - especially with the driver.

 

Third, when I watch the video posted by mvmac, it looks like on the right frame (updated swing) your still need to work on your turning radius.  To me, it appears your upper torso is over turning which gets that left arm vertical at the top - and forces your right arm further behind you.  I'm merely speaking based on some of the same issues I have in my swing with regard to turning rates.  For me, I need to hit the breaks sooner, take it out of reverse (back swing), and slam it into drive (down swing).  

 

Stock shot is a push-draw. Misses are pull-draws, pushes, and push-fades. WIth longer clubs I actually have a pull-fade or pull miss too. There are a number of reasons for this, which is what we attempted to address in the first evolvr video four days ago or so. I have a number of downswing issues that involve an exit point that is too low, poor elbow positioning, loss of wrist angles, loss of side-tilt, etc. I used to have an exit-point that teetered on the edge of too high, so for 3-4 weeks, I worked on lowering it. Now I lowered it too much, and I can't raise it again.

It is weird that it looks like I'm aimed right. Both recent swings here on the thread were push-draws though. Hmmmm.... I think I'll have to monitor my stance. I think the left foot flare out makes it look like I'm more open than I am, but I do appear to be open. I'll use my alignment stick going forward to correct this, or at least see what's going on with it.

Per my turning radius, yup, this has been a problem for a while. My swing is super long, and always has been. I've been trying to fix it for a while now, as you can see in the previous posts in my thread. Right now, this better pivot feels pretty weird still (yesterday was the first time I ever tried to do it), so Mike suggested last night that we just stick with that until it normalizes. The downswing feels odd too now, so he wants me to get more comfortable with the swing before we move on. He hinted that the next piece to fix had to do with my right elbow positioning though, as you said.

At least now though, when I do shorten the swing, it will be a shortened central pivot -- not a shortened pivot that's moving. I was attempting to get "more of a good thing" with that backswing. I mean, to me, it made sense: contact goes south, what do I do? Put a bit more weight forward. Make sure the handle's forward. Over time, I just got more and more weight forward and never realized there was a major point of diminishing returns. And the result is what you see above -- which apparently is quite common in a long-term S&T student.* 

But yea, you're spot on. My swing needs to feel much shorter and location of my elbows needs to improve (and they do appear to be related issues). I have a short swing when I have a wedge in my hand, but anytime I have an iron or longer, I get too much into "hit it hard" mode. I mentioned earlier in the thread that a good three-quarter backswing felt like I was swinging to A2.5 -- that's how messed up my feel is with backswing length.

Bennett (not mvmac) suggested that controlling the length of my backswing would be a major step towards improving and hitting more GIR. It's definitely something I want to fix. He also told me stories about how both he and Andy had to fix the lengths of their backswing with Mac O'Grady back in the 80s and 90s. How they had to camp out on the range all day and wait for Mac to get to them (basically what I did with Bennett the day I worked with him). How for Andy, the backswing was so screwed up, he had to feel like he was swinging to A2 to get the length right. The first tournament Andy played with the new backswing, he felt like he was swinging to hip height! At the end of the round, he asked the other pros if they were annoyed by his half-swinging all day. They all said "huh? I didn't notice anything close to that." Andy said it was an epiphany to him about how feel might not be real in golf.

If nothing else, I feel like I'm part of the shitty, long backswing club, which as it appears to me, is a pretty prestigious crowd ... right now though, I'm in Mike's (mvmac's) hands. It appears as if the next two practice sessions will simply be going over what I'm doing now and making it more comfortable and seeing what develops. 

* I realized yesterday that if I wanted, I could continue to put more weight forward -- as long as the pivot remained centered. I hit some shots with tons of weight on my front foot and hit them well when I focused on still turning my shoulders correctly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mvmac 

     Quote:

Originally Posted by Beachcomber 

Second, what is your stock shot right now with the driver and iron?  It appears that you have an open stance at address?  Which I'm surprised being a S&T guy that you aren't aimed right - especially with the driver.

 

 

Yeah don't get S&T mixed up with Grant or us.  Andy wants to perserve the geometry of a push draw, that's why they like hitting down with the driver.  That's why Erik started that hitting up driver thread two years ago.

 

I actually specifically asked Mike Bennett about this (Hitting up or down with driver in an inline pattern) but felt I had insufficient knowledge to support the 5SK side of the argument, so I basically lost the argument. Right now, I cannot recall exactly what Mike B was telling me, but it had a lot to do with what they discuss in S&T 2.0. 

 

Essentially, the main thing I took away from that conversation is that apparently trackman data can be interpreted differently. Whether I'm right or wrong in that assessment, I don't know. But I do know that I did not sufficiently educate myself to be able to hang in that debate with him (which is my fault). But at that point, I was content with just moving on and focusing on my swing, so I shifted the gears of the conversation.

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by mvmac 

Quote:

Originally Posted by JetFan1983 

 

This change took one lesson yea, but the tips here were from video two. In video one, we worked on a downswing piece that I had enormous difficulty getting, so Mike re-evaluated and sent me this one instead. This second video was the follow-up video after I sent in more swings where I told him I was having major problems.

 

 

Re-evaluated after getting a good caddy view video ;-)

 

 

 

Haha, good point. I learned though just how important it was to provide options for you when it comes to videos of my swing to analyze. It was a real-time video that really painted the picture of what I was doing, as opposed to 420 FPS, which is what I sort of over-kill at times. 

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by mvmac 

Quote:

Originally Posted by JetFan1983 

 

 

At least now though, when I do shorten the swing, it will be a shortened central pivot -- not a shortened pivot that's moving. I was attempting to get "more of a good thing" with that backswing. I mean, to me, it made sense: contact goes south, what do I do? Put a bit more weight forward. Make sure the handle's forward. Over time, I just got more and more weight forward and never realized there was a major point of diminishing returns. And the result is what you see above -- which apparently is quite common in a long-term S&T student.* 

 

But yea, you're spot on. My swing needs to feel much shorter and location of my elbows needs to improve (and they do appear to be related issues). I have a short swing when I have a wedge in my hand, but anytime I have an iron or longer, I get too much into "hit it hard" mode. I mentioned earlier in the thread that a good three-quarter backswing felt like I was swinging to A2.5 -- that's how messed up my feel is with backswing length.

 

Yeah well said, thanks for the story.  Beach, just to answer your question, it's all about priorities.  I'd rather see that left shoulder go a little too far back than not enough.  I'd rather a student err on slightly moving the head to the right than to the left.  JF was moving his centers too far forward and couldn't recover.  Yeah there are some issues with the arms and that will be addressed but it's not that bad.  Got to get the 101 stuff comfortable, don't want to work on a mechanics piece when the weight is too far back in the heels and his neck alignment is causing him to hyper extend.  This info is a little new for JT right now, being told to turn in flexion and don't "load" left on the backswing, give it some time to sink in.

 

This would be a good swing to look at, notice how the upper center is "soft" and he does over do the extension.  With a visor like he's wearing you can't see his face at A4, that shows the rates are in good order.  Also notice how the pressure or weight "falls" left at about A4.5.  JT that's what you're starting to tap into with those swings from yesterday, not having to force the weight left but allowing how the pressure works on the back swing to do it for you.  

 

 

 

 

Cool. I love Glenn Hansen's swing. He looks like Brandt Snedeker's little brother. Yea, I'll definitely see how this goes, and this is helpful to understand the spectrum a little better. 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beachcomber 

Second, what is your stock shot right now with the driver and iron?  It appears that you have an open stance at address?  Which I'm surprised being a S&T guy that you aren't aimed right - especially with the driver.

 

Why? They'd continue to aim roughly straight, hit down, and hit a little push-draw if they follow the model.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beachcomber 

Third, when I watch the video posted by mvmac, it looks like on the right frame (updated swing) you still need to work on your turning radius.  To me, it appears your upper torso is over turning which gets that left arm vertical at the top - and forces your right arm further behind you.  I'm merely speaking based on some of the same issues I have in my swing with regard to turning rates.  For me, I need to hit the breaks sooner, take it out of reverse (back swing), and slam it into drive (down swing).

 

Do you see his right shoulder retracting or doing anything goofy in this swing? He's simply swung past 90°, which is fine if the geometry can be preserved.

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by JetFan1983 

Per my turning radius, yup, this has been a problem for a while. My swing is super long, and always has been. I've been trying to fix it for a while now, as you can see in the previous posts in my thread. Right now, this better pivot feels pretty weird still (yesterday was the first time I ever tried to do it), so Mike suggested last night that we just stick with that until it normalizes.

 

Note that there are several ways to get a "long" backswing. You do it by turning 110-120° - that's fine.

Interesting stuff! I do stretch daily (dynamically prior to golf, static after golf, dynamic and static on my off-day). I'm glad that's paying off since i've been doing it since 2011 or so.

Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by JetFan1983 

Over time, I just got more and more weight forward and never realized there was a major point of diminishing returns. And the result is what you see above -- which apparently is quite common in a long-term S&T student.* 

 

Not so much diminishing returns as your body realizing that you're going to have an AoA of -12 with your head so far forward and doing all it can to shallow out the descent into the ball. :)

 

And yes, quite common, as is the right elbow thing (that you don't really have too badly).

 

OK, then that explains why my divots were getting so huge lately. No matter how much I pushed my hips forward or tried to straighten my legs through the shot, the divot depth could not improve. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas 

Quote:

Originally Posted by JetFan1983 

* I realized yesterday that if I wanted, I could continue to put more weight forward -- as long as the pivot remained centered. I hit some shots with tons of weight on my front foot and hit them well when I focused on still turning my shoulders correctly.

 

Feel ain't real. :) Should I post Dave's SwingCatalyst picture again? :)

I can do it for you... My bad.

Originally Posted by Beachcomber 

Quote:

Originally Posted by JetFan1983 

It is weird that it looks like I'm aimed right. Both recent swings here on the thread were push-draws though. Hmmmm.... I think I'll have to monitor my stance. I think the left foot flare out makes it look like I'm more open than I am, but I do appear to be open. I'll use my alignment stick going forward to correct this, or at least see what's going on with it.

To me it looks like you are aimed left with your stance line.... Not right in this photo.  But agree, simply monitor it with an alignment stick.  It's an easy fix if you indeed are aimed left.

 

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by JetFan1983 

Stock shot is a push-draw. Misses are pull-draws, pushes, and push-fades. WIth longer clubs I actually have a pull-fade or pull miss too. There are a number of reasons for this, which is what we attempted to address in the first evolvr video four days ago or so. I have a number of downswing issues that involve an exit point that is too low, poor elbow positioning, loss of wrist angles, loss of side-tilt, etc. I used to have an exit-point that teetered on the edge of too high, so for 3-4 weeks, I worked on lowering it. Now I lowered it too much, and I can't raise it again.

Sounds awfully familiar.  When my swing tempo gets out of whack (swinging hard and fast) - I hit a pull-draw - especially with my irons.  Then as the clubs get longer I start hitting pushes and fades... I think it has to do with the lack of clubface control and early extension issues that I have all do to going past 90* and not preserving my geometries of the down swing? 

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas 

Why? They'd continue to aim roughly straight, hit down, and hit a little push-draw if they follow the model.

 

 

It has been awhile since I have read the S&T book, and I may be confused with all the videos I've watched on the D-Plane, but I thought Bennett and Plummer advocated aiming slightly right of your target with the driver? And I noticed he appeared to be aimed left with his stance with the driver which I found odd or straying away from S&T.  I think JetFan will be fine if he simply uses an alignment stick to monitor his setup.  Sounds like he is hitting Push Draws, which would be quite difficult if he was indeed aimed left with his stance line.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas 

Do you see his right shoulder retracting or doing anything goofy in this swing? He's simply swung past 90°, which is fine if the geometry can be preserved.

 

Note that there are several ways to get a "long" backswing. You do it by turning 110-120° - that's fine.

 

No I didn't see anything goofy with his right elbow... It's not the proper angle (would prefer DTL) to see what the right elbow is doing at A4.  But, as I stated, I have the same issue with the upper turning radius and the shoulders going beyond 90*.  Unfortunately for me, the geometries get all out of whack.  So I wasn't pointing this out to say he was in trouble and his swing was doomed, just that it is something that appears to be an area that he may want to monitor.  

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by mvmac 

Yeah well said, thanks for the story.  Beach, just to answer your question, it's all about priorities.  I'd rather see that left shoulder go a little too far back than not enough.  I'd rather a student err on slightly moving the head to the right than to the left.  JF was moving his centers too far forward and couldn't recover.  Yeah there are some issues with the arms and that will be addressed but it's not that bad.  Got to get the 101 stuff comfortable, don't want to work on a mechanics piece when the weight is too far back in the heels and his neck alignment is causing him to hyper extend.  This info is a little new for JT right now, being told to turn in flexion and don't "load" left on the backswing, give it some time to sink in.

Makes perfect sense, I wasn't saying he was done with the centered pivot piece and he needed to move on... Just that I noticed his left arm was getting across his chest pretty deep at A4 -- too much PP4?? - and that is typically found when the turning rates are off.  I think what JF has shown just in the centered pivot work via his updated swing, it looks a ton better.  :Hat tip: to you both.

 

And I like the Glenn Hansen example... Thanks for sharing.  Having a softer upper is something I need to incorporate as well.

Sorry, man. Misprint. I meant "aimed left." Not right. Oops!

Really grateful for the critique here, BC. I think you're hitting on something else Mike and I have discussed in PMs. I'm really shallow going back and then it steepens coming down... which is pretty much the opposite of what one would want. The poor pivot was a major contributor to that, but it still needs work.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mvmac 

Quote:

Originally Posted by JetFan1983 

 

 

Essentially, the main thing I took away from that conversation is that apparently trackman data can be interpreted differently.

 

I've heard Andy say or write things that where he basically says that.  I'm really not sure what he means.  Anyway, not trying to turn this into a S&T hate thread lol  

 

Yea, and I hope it goes without saying, to the lurkers, that I'm a very big supporter and a very grateful student of what Mike and Andy teach.

I'm just doing a bit of evolving now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mvmac 

Originally Posted by JetFan1983 

Haha, good point. I learned though just how important it was to provide options for you when it comes to videos of my swing to analyze. It was a real-time video that really painted the picture of what I was doing, as opposed to 420 FPS, which is what I sort of over-kill at times. 

 

Yeah full speed was good to see but it was something else.  Not necessary to post on here.

 

OK. And just to summarize my current feelings on all this, I'm thrilled with evolvr.