My Swing (Jetfan1983) - Page 6

Quote:

Originally Posted by logman 

I"ve got 2 good golf buddies 

One is the opposite of the other. My brother, Tim is a really good golfer.....great technique but a total over analyzer. Dave stands on two legs and swings a club at the ball.........that's Daves game, If you ask him what sort of shot he's going to hit from 150 meters, it'l be something like "I'm going to hit it at that stick in the green"

Both of them are very low single digit players. But I love the way Dave plays with a completely empty head. But the thing he does have is a great feel for the game. 

I look at your swing an I think that's the swing of a really good player. Maybe empty your head of the technique and work on simplifying the game. Sorry I'm sounding all sanctimonious but anyway.

 

Just a little insight into Friend Dave's brain and how it works. We were playing a crappy par 3 course a while back . Just us playing, so Dave came up with this Idea. Every hole we'd tee up and shoot at the green ......then tee up next to the green and hit back to the tee.........then tee up where the ball landed and play the hole again. 

We were a little drunk

But I noticed something interesting was happening. Dave hit green and the tees equally well. Whereas, I hit about a ratio of 3 tee hits to one green hit (if you follow). It dawned on me that Dave just "hit the ball at that stick" whereas when I played to a green something in my brain made the task so much more complicated that just teeing up and wacking the thing back to where I'd just hit it from. The shot I had to play was indentical but something made shooting at the green that little bit /a lot harder than shooting back to the tee block

Less thinking more hitting..........less drinking during golf

Hey, man. Thanks for taking the time to post and offer this advice. I apologize that I've been less than welcoming to you over the past few months.

You raise an interesting point, and I've made a point now to fire at a flag every time I hit a golf ball on the range. Sometimes, I forget to pick a target when I'm practicing, and just doing this has been helpful. In a lot of senses, I could perhaps do better by "emptying my cup" a bit more often when out there.

Like you guys have said, my swing looks good. A tour pro who missed final stage of Q-school by a shot this year thought I was a 1.0 index when he looked at my swing on film when we were hitting balls at the range.

But I just think there's a lot to be said of experience in this game -- season after season, range session after range session, ball after ball -- there's strength in numbers. And I don't have that yet.

I'm reading Zen Golf right now (as I always have some sort of golf reading material at the ready), and while I did make fun of this book for the first few pages (I would read it as if Michael Scott from the Office had written in, and lemme tell you, it cracks me because it works so well). But there are interesting pieces of information in it -- like thinking of your driver tee shot as a lay-up. Or always swinging within yourself -- and sure, you can find tempo tips in almost any golf magazine, but I often dismissed them in my quest for power. Like I've said, I would overswing so much and for so long that that became my natural tempo. I didn't even realize that I was doing it. 

I played in a tournament recently -- a scramble -- only the third tournament I've played in. It had a 20 dollar buy in and there were five teams of four. It was during this event that I realized for the first time that my swing tempo was terrible. Watching my teammates swing smoothly, put the ball in the fairway every single time, and then hit GIR with only varying proximities to the hole made me understand first hand that was just muscling the ball with no regard for grace or elegance. This game isn't about hitting it far, I said to myself. It's about keeping it in play and controlling contact and curve. And that's what gets the ball in the hole in the fewest strokes possible given my skill level. Those should be my number one priorities when I get out on the course. 

After the tournament was over, I took a good look at my swing and told myself I was never going to swing hard again. What's the point? To hit that one bombed drive here and there? What good does that even do? Why should I even care how far I hit the ball? Two of my partners in the scramble hit something like 7/9 GIR in the tournament, and they hit the ball 30 yards shorter than me. 

I've started to do what Fred Couples used to do for years during his warm-ups. In this video, he talks about how his teacher had him change this. But I'm doing now what he talks about what he used to do: Hitting balls just trying to hit them easy as hell, erring on the side of too slow rather than too fast (and by too fast, I mean "overswinging"). And frankly, his swing tempo is what my goal is now simply because I've found it is so much easier to have club face control. 

I watch his swing all the time now in the hopes this tempo will continue to rub off. It's a new motor pattern for me and of course it doesn't work as often as I'd like, but I think if I do this enough, I will be able to become a much better scorer. And the guy still hits it far! That's the funny thing to me. And I've noticed I can still hit it far when I do this too. Not as far as Fred, but I don't need to hit it as far as he does.

Right now though, I'm just getting frustrated by my sprained wrist -- which is totally a product of my overswinging. It's an over-use injury. My plan right now is to let this stupid thing heal and then when I go back, evolvr and tempo are all I'll be focusing on (it's been 7 days). I only wish I realized the importance of better tempo to my game before I ended up hurting myself. But hey, I can't change the past, and the lesson has finally been learned. I have enough good mechanical pieces in play now where tempo has become paramount. A year ago, I wouldn't have been able to say that. Now, I can.

But again, logman, thanks a lot for taking the time to give me some advice. Appreciate it. I hope the LPG stuff keeps going well for you and you take down your brother and friend on the course consistently soon 

I just wanted to add: Look at Fred's "100%" seven iron swing he makes when he's 186 from the flag. That would be like my 40% swing -- or at least, that's the mental picture I'd have when trying to get that tempo. That's how much I've been over-swinging. Man, I cannot wait to get back out there and practice this tempo every time I hit balls now. I really think I found something vitally important that goes beyond mechanics.  

I used to dismiss this stuff all the time. Not anymore. Like I said, I needed better mechanics first before any of this crap mattered. But now it matters. I think it comes from just starting from a place of no good mechanics. I had to swing hard to get the driver to go farther than 200 yards. I didn't realize that my mechanics were better and I could slow down. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by logman 

Hey JF, Aint no thang!. 

 

You mentioned LPG, yeah, yeah, I know. But I'm just thinking about the Downfalls of LPG in comparison to your more classic action. And one thing I've realized, having experimented with a couple of styles is how superior the conventional swing is regarding translating what your mind percieves as the right weight to swing the club to hit the target and then the transfer of that feel into the right swing weight. The LPG swing punches the club at the ball in a quickish sort of jab. The conventional swing seems more pendulummy(if you know what I mean). The conventional swing feels like you can dial in the correct weight feel.....during the swing. 

So your swing looks powerful enough to back off on the "hitting" and concentrate on feeling the pendulummy transfer of power. 

Anyway, I think if you back off the power a bit without losing your natural rhythm then not only will your sideways dispersion reduce but also your length dispersion

 

PS; pendulummy..wtf that!

Yea, you know, what you say intrigues me because honestly any style can work. I've put a good amount of time into my swing over the past year, and even still it frustrates the hell out of me. LPG can definitely work, but just remembering your swing thread, the one thing that stuck out to me was the weight transfer. I think if you can get the weight more forward consistently, you will get more power and less curve. But take it from me, and I'm sure you'll agree, that changing things can be really difficult. I've suffered quite a bit of this as I seem to be always working on swing changes. I'm just never satisfied really with where I'm at, so I never have a range session where it's just about warming up. I'm always fixing something. In the long run, I think that's been a good thing, but in the short term, it can really bite me in the ass.

For the longest time, feeling pressure in my front foot -- throughout the entire swing -- really helped me learn how to slide my hips in order to get the weight transfer I more or less wanted.  Even still, my right foot doesn't bank onto its instep the way I want it to. But over time, I've been able to drift away from that as Mvmac has me feeling a weight transfer into my back foot. Honestly, a year ago, I don't think I could have pulled that off. But now, with so many range sessions ingraining a hip slide, I can shift back now and get back onto my front side consistently. Its a slippery slope because you can see on this thread what constant front foot pressure can do to you. It can move the location of the pivot too far forward, with the shoulder turn not going far enough "back." Now that I understand that, its done wonders for understanding the foot pressures -- and their locations during the swing -- a lot better.

With my swing, I fight a hook and a push. I can even hit the draw equivalent of a slice where the ball pushes way out to the right and then suddenly draws well back to the middle of the fairway -- it's an annoying shot to hit because of how much distance I lose. So my swing certainly has its fair share of issues too.

And frankly, learning anything new is just riddled with constant tests of patience and humility. I've had I don't know how many sessions where I've looked like a 30 handicap out there. Sometimes, I look like a pro too, and I've been mistaken for a pro by other pros, but there have been just so many times where I've hit the ball fat, thin, left, right -- pretty much anywhere except where I'm aiming.

I think if you applied some of the LPG principles that you really like with some of the stuff on this site that you are intrigued by too, you could end up with a swing pattern you'd really be excited about. I know evolvr is really flexible about merging swing philosophies. Granted, the practice I put in to engrain the changes Mike wants does require dedication. They've really gotten me to understand the limitations of the S&T instruction I had received. And, man, was I dedicated to S&T when I started with them. People call 5SK Stack and Tilt, but they couldn't be more wrong. 5SK respects S&T, and they know how to teach it, but what separates them is that they know where the over-doing of the S&T pieces occur, and how to fix them. So for me, it is a perfect marriage. It's pretty much like they're better at teaching S&T than S&T! 

All that said, reading the S&T book was the most enlightening experience I've ever had reading a golf book -- even if I'm drifting away from it now. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by jamo 

JetFan, you're still working with the S&T guys right? Well looky here, someone just called S&T "conventional."

In the private forums, you know how I feel about what's been going with S&T. I'm working exclusively with Mvmac now. I see the S&T people all the time though as I practice at the range where they all teach at and hold clinics. I know them well enough now that they don't mind that I attend clinics without paying -- just to observe their teaching methods. It's been really cool, and they're all super nice to me. They know I can speak the TGM language and that I understand the pattern pretty well, so I guess I'm fairly enjoyable to be around as far as students go.

But I've been looking more "conventional" ever since I started working with evolvr, since they got me to understand just how much "back" my shoulder turn needed to go. Of course, now I have to work on my arms -- which in a lot of ways scares me because that's been the least natural movement for me. But also, I think I've gotten to the point where I've gotten so fed up with this problem, that I'm going to overdo the solution so much the next time I practice that Mvmac will have to send me a video telling me to stop doing it so much 

I think the most Stack and Tilty look of my swing is the hip slide. I've practiced it so much in the past couple seasons that I know exactly what I need to feel in order to get that picture.

I still have two lessons that I've paid for with two S&T teachers. I'm not sure when I'll use them, but I paid for them months ago. It'll be interesting to work with them again now that I'm armed with more information as to where I would like them to focus on fixing me. And also, I'm intrigued to hear what they think my priority piece is right now based on what I know from evolvr. I think I'd laugh if they didn't match. It would spark an interesting discussion.

Here are some of the differences between evolvr and S&T:

1) S&T teachers keep telling me to keep my arms straight on the back swing. Evolvr tells me to fold the right arm early and a lot in the backswing. Total disconnect there. I'm going with what evolvr tells me because they've convinced me why this is important whereas S&T has not.

2) S&T wants me to palmar flex more when I lose the flying wedge, but evolvr wants me to release the no.4 power accumulator better. I'm leaning towards evolvr because their explanation makes more sense to me, even if I still have a very profound respect for palmar flexion, especially when I'm flipping.

3) Evolvr has explained the foot pressures to me better.

4) S&T doesn't want my lead knee to track inward, but evolvr does. I like the evolvr way better because its easier to make a centered pivot. 

5) Evolvr wants me to reduce feet flare out where S&T has never mentioned that to me. Evolvr's explanation why I should do this makes more sense to me, even though I do have a strong respect for flaring out the feet (see Sam Snead. He does it perfectly). 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clambake 

Jetfan, I just want to say I've enjoyed your swing saga.    I'm reminded of that Jim Carrey movie "The Truman Show" where the whole country tuned in religiously each week to see Truman's ongoing life.    Similarly, I find your path of exploration to be insightful, educational, and entertaining.   Thanks for taking the time to share your experience with us!!!

Hey, thanks, guys for the nice words. Appreciate it. Yea, you can see how awful my swing was at the start (post 31 and one vid in post 1). It's been a lot of tough work, but fun too.

I wish I had some swing updates for all of you (and myself) but my wrist still doesn't feel so good. I must've really screwed it up swinging too hard. I did learn a valuable lesson about grace, control, and tempo because of this injury, but it's getting annoying now as I've only been able to hit balls once in the last 19 days, hence why my thread has stalled out with updates. It's pretty typical of me to get hurt, so I just gotta deal with it.

What's really frustrating though is I have what I want to do the next time I hit balls totally mapped out:

1) Check grip: must be strong w/ the trigger finger in the correct place

2) More up with everything on the backswing: more right arm folding, more wrist cock, more Ricky Fowler feeling

3) Bring arms down hard on the downswing

Part 3 there is a little vague, but I'll get more into describing what I'm doing/did to improve the picture when I improve it. Mike and I have been going over what the hell I should be doing with that for a while now... I'm just so antsy to start practicing it... UGH HEAL YOU STUPID WRIST  (I'm doing pretty much all I can right now treatment wise, so I'm doing my best with it).

I also have a sneaky move up my sleeve that I haven't told Mike about yet over how to get the arms down faster -- which I figured out two nights ago while doing swing analysis of great players.... usually when I do this kind of work, I get it wrong, but this time I think I've found something.... hehe. I really want to test it out and see if I nailed something here both theory wise and feel wise. I'll talk about this after I get to practice it to see if it works or not. It takes a few paragraphs I think to describe because ultimately its about PA5, the short-lived goodness of palmar flexion and why it's mostly unnecessary, and a little bit about Mac O'Grady's "twirl" move. It's not the twirl itself, but it has to do with it. I guess it mostly stems from understanding power accumulator 5, and how everybody basically flips (flip could be the wrong word here). It's just how to get the flip to occur at the desired time using hip slide, foot pressure, elbow positioning/correct arm descent/forearm positioning, and the correct right shoulder descent. 

Anyway, chances are I'm wrong on this, but this is what happens to me when I get hurt and am fiending golf. My brain just can't stop. The injury sucks, but like I said, at least it got me to understand the importance is swinging with great tempo and control. Overswinging was my biggest killer. I can't even tell you how hard I used to swing. I had too much Icarus and not enough Daedelus in my thought process.

The injury has also gotten me to reevaluate palmar flexion as a constant downswing wrist condition, so that's led me down the path towards trying to figure out how to hit the ball with shaft lean without using it. 

*

It's cool though that you took the time to read the thread, Clam. I really appreciate it. You know I'm a big fan of your posts. Yea, it's been an interesting journey, but it's gotten more interesting for me -- and more fun -- since Mike started helping me through evolvr. I didn't think I was good enough to learn through video clips and emails alone, but apparently, it's what's worked best for me so far. Maybe I was just finally ready for it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clambake 

I hope your wrist recovers quickly...it's been a few weeks, hasn't it?     There is nothing more frustrating than being injured just when starting to make good progress.   

Let's see, according to my calendar, I injured it on Jan.26th and continued to play on it until Jan.31st when the pain was just a little too much to enjoy the game. Then I hit balls for about 45 minutes on Feb.14th, thinking it had healed, but it hadn't and so I'm back treating it again. Yea, its frustrating, but its taught me a lot about tempo and elbow positioning in the swing, so it wasn't a total loss.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beachcomber 

Injuries suck bad... Especially something like a wrist. Have you gone to see a physical therapist or doctor to check it?

Nah, no doctor. I'm just using ice when I can, sleeping with a wrist brace, and keeping it wrapped at various times during the day to compress it. I took a few naproxens to reduce inflammation, but ran out of those a few days ago. I don't think I need them anymore though. It's healing. Slowly, but it's healing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RPMPIRE 

Quote:

Originally Posted by JetFan1983 

Anyway, chances are I'm wrong on this, but this is what happens to me when I get hurt and am fiending golf. My brain just can't stop. The injury sucks, but like I said, at least it got me to understand the importance is swinging with great tempo and control. Overswinging was my biggest killer. I can't even tell you how hard I used to swing. I had too much Icarus and not enough Daedelus in my thought process.

 

The injury has also gotten me to reevaluate palmar flexion as a constant downswing wrist condition, so that's led me down the path towards trying to figure out how to hit the ball with shaft lean without using it. 

 

I know what you mean. All I could think about was golf when I had my back injury last year - swing, equipment, TV coverage, etc. Anyway, hope you wrist gets better soon. 

Yea, man. I know how you feel. I've had a season ending back injury once too.

But right now, I can barely stand to watch golf on TV. It's somewhat pathetic to say because I wouldn't call myself a fan boy, but if Tiger or Rory or Phil aren't in the field, I just don't care. I care when I'm not hurt. I'll watch Ray Romano hack it around for four hours if that was a show. But when I'm hurt, my ability to enjoy golf on TV wanes pretty quickly.

Thanks for positive words though, guys! It's cool that you chimed in here just to say "get well soon." My goal is to come back on Saturday, but we'll just have to see. I feel like I'm close, but when I first hurt it, I didn't think it would last more than a couple days and here I am almost a month later already. At least I caught it before I did something serious to it.