Red stakes and provisional drive

OK rules gurus, this one should be relatively simple.

When I hit my drive into tall grass, hit a provisional drive, and then discovered that the tall grass was a red staked lateral hazard, what were my options?

Did I have to play my provisional as my fourth stroke, or could I have picked up my provisional and took a drop, and played my dropped ball as my third stroke?

I'm assuming it's the latter, but I'm honestly unsure.

If you find the golf ball in the lateral hazard you can either play it as it lies or take an unplayable, drop it out and take a stroke.  If you do not find the golf ball in the tall grass then it is deemed a lost ball and you then have to play your provisional.

I'll let others quote the exact ruling, but if the tall grass is marked as a lateral hazard, I don't think it's a lost ball.

Even if it is staked red?

This happened in a recent tournament.  A fellow competitor hit what looked to be an OB shot over a boundary fence, so he then hit a provisional ball off the tee.  When we got up to where we thought his original ball might be, we noticed red stakes marking the fence line as a lateral.  We weren't sure how to proceed, so called the rules official on the phone.  He said that since the original ball was determined to be in a lateral (and not OB), the provisional was disregarded.  The competitor dropped per the lateral hazard rules and played on.

No water ... you can take that up with the course management.

Ball was definitely in red staked area.

So do I play the provisional or take a drop?

Thanks.

I apologize as I was appearantly wrong.  I personally have just always deemed a ball I couldn't find as lost.  Now I too know the correct ruling.  Thanks iacas!

You have to 'Know or be virtually certain' that the ball is in the (water) hazard to treat it as so. If there is a possibility that it could be anywhere else (eg in adjacent longish grass or light rough where it may be hidden) then you cannot treat it as in the hazard and must play the provisional.

Yesterday, I hit a bunch off line and had two different things happen related to this discussion.  I was going to post the first as a new thread, but will ask here instead.

Was it permissible for me to declare my first ball lost and play my provisional in the following situation:

I hit a shot towards some bushes near the green on a hole none of us had ever played before.  One opponent said the ball was "Out" but there were no stakes visible, so we agreed that it was likely lost and I went ahead and hit a provisional onto the green.  When I got up to where I hit the first ball, there was a red line (but no stakes visible) that started at the edge of the cart path which made it appear that everything right of the path was in a lateral hazard (with what might have been water past the bushes).  I was virtually certain that my ball was in the hazard as there was nowhere else it could be, but did not try to find it as the bushes were too tall/dense.

Two club lengths from my point of entry was all cart path and the drop off the path would have put me into a gravely area without much grass or chance to get a decent lie.  At the suggestion of one of my opponents, I went ahead and played my provisional instead of taking a drop onto the cart path.  Was it permissible for me to declare my first ball lost and play the provisional?

I had the exact same thing happen to me yesterday except that when I got up to where I thought my ball was, there were two lines- first a red staked area that included a small creek and a bunch of trees/brush which is where I strongly suspected my ball to be and then, about 20 yards further to the right the boundary fence/OB stakes.  I went ahead and played my provisional as I was not "virtually certain" my ball was in the hazard as there was a small chance it could have hit a tree (or carried further to the right than I thought) and gone OB.

Nope. Since you were "virtually certain" your first ball was in the hazard, you were required to play that ball under the hazard rules and either take a drop, or go back to where you hit your original shot and replay it. Yes, you had already hit your provisional from that point, but that provisional was out of play once you found out your first was in a hazard.

If you had known immediately after hitting it that your first ball was in a hazard *and* that a drop would not have been advantageous, you could've dropped and re-hit (under the one-stroke penalty rule for the hazard) before even walking up there . But that wouldn't have been a provisional, it would've been the ball in play.  Of course this procedure is rarely done since it's unlikely you'll know what the drop situation is until you get up to where you hit the ball to.

That was the correct procedure.

1) You can't declare a ball lost. I becomes lost in one of the following conditions is met.

Lost Ball

A ball is deemed “ lost ” if:

a. It is not found or identified as his by the player within five minutes after the player’s side or his or their caddies have begun to search for it; or

b. The player has made a stroke at a provisional ball from the place where the original ball is likely to be or from a point nearer the hole than that place (see Rule 27-2b ); or

c. The player has put another ball into play under penalty of stroke and distance under Rule 26-1a , 27-1 or 28a ; or

d. The player has put another ball into play because it is known or virtually certain that the ball, which has not been found, has been moved by an outside agency (see Rule 18-1 ), is in an obstruction (see Rule 24-3 ), is in an abnormal ground condition (see Rule 25-1c ) or is in a water hazard (see Rule 26-1b or c ); or

e. The player has made a stroke at a substituted ball .

That's a good point to make. But often a player will say that to mean they are "declaring" they aren't going to look for the ball and proceed as if it was lost, as MEfree did. As you and I pointed out though, it's not truly lost unless it's not found (or not found to be in a hazard, as in this case), within 5 minutes.

I recall Brant Snedeker not looking for a ball and going straight to his provisional during the Open, but he was not in a hazard.

I never found the ball and I never attempted to take a drop from the hazard...I didn`t wait 5 minutes, but I did make a stroke on my provisional ball at a point closer to the hole, so it seems like the ball was "lost" at that point under definition b provided by Rulesman.

So what is my correct score?  Are you guys saying I should have (a) penalty shot(s) in addition to the stroke and distance for the lost ball?

I hit 2 different balls a total of 4 times:

1st shot possibly lost (but in hind sight,virtually certain to be in the hazard)

2nd shot provisional on green

2 putts playing provisional ball

I recorded it as a 5 but haven`t posted yet for my handicap.  What it the correct score?

Assuming I was suppose to abandon my provisional and go back to the tee and play a 3rd tee shots, this seems like a bad rule in terms of trying to speed up play.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MEfree

I recall Brant Snedeker not looking for a ball and going straight to his provisional during the Open, but he was not in a hazard.

That's the difference. If you're in a hazard, there is no option to hit, nor subsequently play, a provisional. And of course, hazard or not, if anyone found his first ball and pointed it out to him within 5 minutes, he'd be forced to play it.

What matters is you discovered the ball was in a hazard within the 5 minute time period for searching for a lost ball, so the ball was not lost.  That means all the provisional and lost ball procedures are out the window - you must play under the hazard rules at that point, which means either taking a drop or going back to replay.

Like I say, there is no lost ball in this scenario.  I'm too lazy to figure out what your actual score would be but it would probably involve you being assessed a penalty for playing a "wrong ball".

For handicap purposes, I think you could either apply the "wrong ball" penalty, or estimate how many shots it would've likely (> 50% of the time) taken you to hole out if you had correctly taken a drop from the hazard, then add 2 to that (one for the tee shot, and one for the penalty stroke).  This is the standard method for estimating what you would have shot on a hole that you do not finish under the rules.

Going back to the tee is just one option. Taking a drop from the hazard is the one more commonly used. For pace of play to be affected, you need the perfect storm you ran into - i.e. that of A) Not knowing there's a hazard up there and B) The drop being a worse case than re-hitting from the tee. That combination happens far too seldom for this to be a pace of play issue.

Unless he found the ball, it was still lost. However, the rules are more lenient if you know or are virtually certain that your ball is lost inside a hazard. This is a bit pedantic, but hey, it's the rules forum.

It is a wrong ball. The penalty is disqualification unless he goes back and corrects the error before teeing off on the next hole. If he goes back and corrects it by correctly substituting a ball and dropping in the right place, then it's a two-stroke penalty.