2012 Ryder Cup Discussion Thread - Page 39

Wow, I'm glad we've got yet another golfer here who's apparently more experienced than Phil Mickelson at winning golf tournaments.

I find it particularly funny to hear the "100%" criticism mixed with the talk of the importance of being a team player. Playing 100% when you're on a team does not mean demanding to play 100% of the time. If you recognize that you're in a situation where a teammate is likely to outperform you, if you're a smart team player you tell your coach/manager. To do otherwise isn't playing 100%, it isn't playing on the team, it's being a selfish, macho idiot. Sure, if the coach disagrees, you go out and give it everything, but you're not doing anyone any favors by mindlessly demanding playing time.

If he was speaking on behalf of Bradley about that, maybe that's a mistake, but it's hard to say. DLIII could certainly have disagreed with him, and Bradley should have spoken up if he disagreed. Maybe he did.

I dont understand why Hunter Mahan didnt make the squad. JF crapped out

We all play Monday morning QB, and it's not always fair to the guys since we don't know what really was going on.   As a fellow lefty, Phil is my favorite golfer but I was a bit disappointed to hear what he did. 

My comments came from the perspective of having played team sports all my life.  When I played H.S. and college football the coach would have benched a guy for the season if he told him he didn't want to go in the 2nd half because he left it all on the field the first.  He'd also get benched for congratulating a defensive player for putting a great hit on our QB even if it was a really great hit. 

When we played, the expectation was if you could walk, you could play and no one would pull themselves out unless they were severely injured.  Maybe it's different with golf because with the exception of Presidents Cup and Ryder Cup it's an individual sport so they don't share the same mentality as people in team sports. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golfingdad 

I don't know how tired he was ... and that is kind of my point.  None of us do.  I guess what I am really saying is that I don't like the idea that we (as fans and outsiders) like to jump to conclusions about people's character.  I don't know Phil Mickelson, or any of the other players in the Ryder Cup, and because of that, I am giving them all the benefit of the doubt when it comes to heart and drive.  (They've all made it to the top 0.0001%, or whatever, of their field, I would say that tells you something right there)

 

Another Monday morning QB scenario ... and this one is much easier to see:  If Rose doesn't sink just one of those last three amazing putts - and no matter what anybody here says, those are all out of Phil's control - then the US almost certainly goes on to win and we are on here praising him for his unselfish team play in asking to be rested on Saturday afternoon so he could come out fresh on Sunday when it counted.

Quote:

Originally Posted by agoodmanmbk 

I dont understand why Hunter Mahan didnt make the squad. JF crapped out

Apparently, he didn't have enough experience on RC teams that had previously lost..

I agree with your comments about smart team players, but you're taught in team sports that it's your job to be out there when the team needs you.  It's the coaches job, not yours,  to determine if your performance at 80% is better than the next guys at 100%.  

I could be wrong, but I highly doubt Ian Poulter would request a benching and no one was showing more intensity and emotion in his matches than he was.  If I had to pick a team mate out of all 24 guys, Poulter (ironic since I never really liked him) is my first choice based strictly on how he stepped up for his team and the intensity he played every match with. 

Again, as I stated in my response to Golfingdad maybe this is different because golf is really an individual sport. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by zeg 

Wow, I'm glad we've got yet another golfer here who's apparently more experienced than Phil Mickelson at winning golf tournaments.

 

I find it particularly funny to hear the "100%" criticism mixed with the talk of the importance of being a team player. Playing 100% when you're on a team does not mean demanding to play 100% of the time. If you recognize that you're in a situation where a teammate is likely to outperform you, if you're a smart team player you tell your coach/manager. To do otherwise isn't playing 100%, it isn't playing on the team, it's being a selfish, macho idiot. Sure, if the coach disagrees, you go out and give it everything, but you're not doing anyone any favors by mindlessly demanding playing time.

 

If he was speaking on behalf of Bradley about that, maybe that's a mistake, but it's hard to say. DLIII could certainly have disagreed with him, and Bradley should have spoken up if he disagreed. Maybe he did.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Desmond 

Apparently, he didn't have enough experience on RC teams that had previously lost..

 

He holds the world record in that area.

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Originally Posted by Joakim 

He holds the world record in that area.

You mean the flubbed chip he had to hole out? 

I meant that Furyk and Stricker had more experience on losing teams, and perhaps it was time to go with younger guys like Mahan and Fowler. The US teams of the last 16 years or so have lacked something - maybe it's time for a new group. But it didn't happen ... this time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Desmond 

You mean the flubbed chip he had to hole out? 

 

I meant that Furyk and Stricker had more experience on losing teams, and perhaps it was time to go with younger guys like Mahan and Fowler. The US teams of the last 16 years or so have lacked something - maybe it's time for a new group. But it didn't happen ... this time.

Actually he holds two records, the most matches and on the most losing teams. Furyk and Stricker haven't played in as many Ryder cups going back to 1995 was his first and when USA started this losing streak. Coincence?

I agree go younger, Definately no more Furyk or Stricker types. Hunter would have been a great pairing with Tiger. There friends and the has a longer tee shot than Stricker.

Quote:

Originally Posted by newtogolf 

We all play Monday morning QB, and it's not always fair to the guys since we don't know what really was going on.   As a fellow lefty, Phil is my favorite golfer but I was a bit disappointed to hear what he did. 

 

My comments came from the perspective of having played team sports all my life.  When I played H.S. and college football the coach would have benched a guy for the season if he told him he didn't want to go in the 2nd half because he left it all on the field the first.  He'd also get benched for congratulating a defensive player for putting a great hit on our QB even if it was a really great hit. 

 

When we played, the expectation was if you could walk, you could play and no one would pull themselves out unless they were severely injured.  Maybe it's different with golf because with the exception of Presidents Cup and Ryder Cup it's an individual sport so they don't share the same mentality as people in team sports. 

 

I totally get this.  I played team sports for a long time as well, and I would have had the same attitude.  I guess this is different partially because its an individual sport, but I think the bigger difference is the quality of the alternatives.  I would bet part of the reason why it's so appalling that your HS or college QB might want to rest is because he's giving up on the team and forcing them to lose because now they have to put in his shitty backup.  That is not the case when your "backups" are the other 11 best golfers in the whole country.

Can't understand the hate for Mickelson, or Love. Mickelson brought home the points Friday and Saturday, Love selected a team that brought home the points Friday and Saturday. One man stopped the rot for Europe on Saturday - that was Poulter. That was all the Euro's had.

On the Sunday, you have to step up or piss off. Just like Poulter did on Saturday, Rose did on Sunday. Even he could not believe the putt on 17 went in.

You lost it on the 18th. 6 games went to the 18th - you won one. That's where you lost it. That and Simpson, Watson and Snedeker never showed up. At least Furyk and Stricker got their games to the 18th!

Butch Harmon said that when Bubba lost his game to Luke, he should go and cheer lead because that's what he has been best at this week.

The only thing Davis Love III has to be ashamed about is the way he set the course up. Just because of that, I'm glad he failed, and hope that that will be a lesson to all future caprtains both American and US. Other than that, he's by far not the worst captain - as said previously, Hal Sutton and Mark James tie for that title.

And here's a fact - I've stood next to Mickelson and he's a big fella. No-one here would have the nuts to go up and get into his face on his decision making. He'd just laugh at you for being so insignificant.

Quote:

Originally Posted by longbow 

Hey Golf Man which match did you watch?  The single most stupid post is yours trying to analyze what Love was trying to do.  What his strategy did was cost us the Ryder Cup which isn't to hard to see.  I mean 4.5 points is what he had to win.  These choke monsters couldn't even do that.  I mean he didn't realize that the Euro's were going to try and start hard and fast?  Give me a break.  When the U.S. players had to hit shots and make putts count they just plain didn't.  As we saw the first 2 days don't win the Cup.  The U.S. was just pathetic.  Plain and simple.  Any other way of looking at it is trying to find a bright spot on a day when there were none.  The U.S. choked for whatever reason.   The worst playing performance  by a U.S. team I've ever witnessed and that is being kind and this is pretty much the outlook on all the sports channels, new articles etc.etc.  These guys play at the highest levels and didn't get it done when they needed to get it done.  

US lost the 2004 and 2006 matches 18.5 - 9.5 - including i think losing all 5 sessions in 2004 - pretty sure that we can consider that a worse performance

Having a quick look at some of the posts its fairly obvious that some on here are delusional

- Mickleson's clapping Rose at 17 had no effect on Rose at 18 - that was all Rose - ridiculous to suggest otherwise

- My understanding is that all the US players were told that they would be sitting one session out - it is possibly a criticism of Love that he had this plan (pick partners and stick to them, no duo to play all 4) and stuck rigidly to it when maybe there was reason to drop Woods/Stricker. However, a point taht no US fan is really adressing, is that they were 10-6 up. Love was being praised for his captaincy. The cup was lost on Sunday, not on Friday or Saturday (Love is only the second US cptain to have double digits on board after 2 days (since 1979)

- One theory here is that due to the score that the Europeans had to go all out and that while the US players, particularly at the top of the order, while obviously wanting to win and trying to win, maybe got into a zone where they felt that the score was comfortable and that if they didn't win, someone else would, ecause they only needed 4.5 points - Europe win the first 5 games and the whole landscape changes - and then you have huge momentum with the Europeans at the bottom and huge pressure on the Americans (again Love can maybe come in for criticism here as maybe he got the mood/approach wrong)

- On the players who arguably choked - Furyk missed two shortish putts under huge pressure, Stricker was far and away the worst player al week on the US team, and couldn't take care of Kaymer, who was probably the worst on the European team. Woods - great singles record and up against Molinari - I would have expected Woods to win easily - this would have had a huge effect later on,(having teh point in the bag as early as possilble)

Must confess, I am a little baffled by the 'hate' Phil has got over a sporting gesture to Justin Rose. That's just Phil and all power to him. Would I have done it? Don't know, probably not, but don't begrudge him for doing it. Also, yes he said to 'bench both him AND Keegan. Probably a bad call, but I'm sure with the best intentions - as has been said, it's not like they didn't have good players waiting in te wings, is it? It does seem at odds with a comment I remember Paul Casey being asked when he had a stupidly short turn around between two matches - he said "Come on, this is golf. We do harder things in training than playing golf." or words to that effect. Think Phil was speaking mentally drained anyway, but I think he's been around long enough to know.

Also quite surprised by several comments about Tiger. I've got no real issues with Tiger (ask my old man and you'll get a different answer! The way Tiger sometimes reacts on the course is astonishing for someone in his position) but the fact that he would have done well if this was Stroke play is irrelevant - it isn't stroke play and match play is different. You actually would have thought that the way Tiger plays it would have been the other way round, particularly with the frankly unforgivable way the course was 'set up' (read rigged) to try to give players like him an advantage outside the way in which that course has ever been played before. I actually like Olli's comment to a reported who asked if it was a big advantage to have 'shut out' Tiger. I paraphrase but basically he said no, not at all, Tiger is just one guy on a team. Some people over in the States sometimes forget that.

That brings me to the conceeded putt. Did they have to play out the hole? Yes, the rules of the Ryder Cup dictate that. Molinari (apparently) asked Olli if they could just half the last when they were waiting half way down the 18th but Olli said no, let's try to win it. Even if he hadn't said that, they couldn't conceed it until they were both on the green as they could only conceed putts. What's a far better question is why did Tiger conceed it as it gave Europe the out right win. I like Molinari, great guy, but he's not always been the safest pair of hands inside 5 feet. Answer - because it meant nothing to him, he wasn't going to be on the team that won the cup. Now this is where I start to agree with my old man. Who does Tiger think he is that he can decide, himself, that he will take a draw away from his team mates and his captain in particular. No, I didn't agree with all DL3 did, particularly with cutting down all the rough, but Tiger made the decision that DL3 is not a captain who didn't quite win the cup back, got a draw but didn't quite do it....... he's a loosing captain and that will never change. That's now written into the history books. No second chances, no way of changing that. If it had been a draw, some up there could have taken something from that. Not a lot, but something. Tiger decided that it didn't matter, that the 11 other guys sitting there are now on a team that lost outright, lets hope some of them get the chance to remedy that. One day certain people, Tiger included, will work out the team is bigger than the individual in Ryder Cup, then over here in Europe we better look out.

Last point, on a light hearted note, not funny but not quite as down as the last, did anyone else pick up on the part of the closing ceremony when the head (director was it?) of the European tour thanked the US team for being gracious in defeat, then the camera panned across their faces. Never one to mock someone else's misfortune but the choice of words was, shall we say, unfortunate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golf Man 

Having a quick look at some of the posts its fairly obvious that some on here are delusional

 

- Mickleson's clapping Rose at 17 had no effect on Rose at 18 - that was all Rose - ridiculous to suggest otherwise

 

- My understanding is that all the US players were told that they would be sitting one session out - it is possibly a criticism of Love that he had this plan (pick partners and stick to them, no duo to play all 4) and stuck rigidly to it when maybe there was reason to drop Woods/Stricker. However, a point taht no US fan is really adressing, is that they were 10-6 up. Love was being praised for his captaincy. The cup was lost on Sunday, not on Friday or Saturday (Love is only the second US cptain to have double digits on board after 2 days (since 1979)

In s

- One theory here is that due to the score that the Europeans had to go all out and that while the US players, particularly at the top of the order, while obviously wanting to win and trying to win, maybe got into a zone where they felt that the score was comfortable and that if they didn't win, someone else would, ecause they only needed 4.5 points - Europe win the first 5 games and the whole landscape changes - and then you have huge momentum with the Europeans at the bottom and huge pressure on the Americans (again Love can maybe come in for criticism here as maybe he got the mood/approach wrong)

 

- On the players who arguably choked - Furyk missed two shortish putts under huge pressure, Stricker was far and away the worst player al week on the US team, and couldn't take care of Kaymer, who was probably the worst on the European team. Woods - great singles record and up against Molinari - I would have expected Woods to win easily - this would have had a huge effect later on,(having teh point in the bag as early as possilble)

Unprecedented actions never seen in Ryder cup history and/or that require questioning.

1) I've never seen anyone clapping so encouraging b4 a game is over.

2) Never before have I seen a team come out ON TV and tell your opponent during the match what your game plan is.  Never before (that I know of) has all 12 players only played  3 matches and sitting on your bench is Phil Mickelson, Keegan Bradley, Brandt Snecker and Furyk was a good choice. Never before have I seen a manager choose a game plan. This is just plain stupid, every sports event you start with a plan but you must have flexability and willing to change things.

3) Never do I see teams get satisfied not going for the knockout and satisfied with we have a good lead. Also his lineup choice... yes the rookies had a good lead but leading off the final round of the Ryder cup against their best and most experienced players is a big risk that did not work. Everyone new Ollie was bringing out his big guns and you had an advantage knowing. Start a couple vets and the rest of your rooks would have been paired against very beatable players. It would have relieved alot of pressure the night before knowing they had substantial advantages. Plus Psychologicaly you just took EURO'S best players and they very well could have played down to their competition.

Sure this is only monday quarterbacking but as you pointed out....(Love is only the second US captain to have double digits on board after 2 days (since 1979)......

and he lost. I could go on and on with mistake after mistake so to end this.

I respect DL3 for being a nice guy, but I thought this was about winning. DL3 said he was talking with his captains the night before the match and he said "I'm not even thinking about the afternoon" Shocking.... Mayby he should have put some more thought into alot of things.

Quote:

Originally Posted by phan52 

The Woods/Molinari match ceased to mean anythng once Kaymer holed his putt. The Cup was going back to Europe. It's called sportsmanship, something that Olazabal was crying about back in 1999. Don't be a hypocrite, Ollie.

That is what Ollie and Seve were famous for...people like to forget that when a guy dies but Seve was the worst and the person most responsible for the climate of today.

Quote:

Originally Posted by k-troop 

I will say that I'm proud of the US Team.  They played well in team play and put together some seriously good matches on Friday and Saturday.  On Sunday they just got thumped.  The Euro team came out looking to kick some arse, and they did just that. 

 

Luke shot -4.

Poulter shot -2.

Rory was -5.

Rose shot -6.

Lawrie was -6 thru 15.

 

That's the first 5 points of the day for Europe, and Poulter was the only Euro who didn't post a round in the 60s.  You can say that Bubba played like crap against Donald, but he beat Z. Johnson and tied D. Johnson (meaning both would have lost to Donald) based strictly on score.  Dufner was by far our best player yesterday, and he still wouldn't have beaten any of Euro's first 5 save for Poulter (based strictly on scores).

 

Clearly the dynamics of match play is more than just comparing scores, but the scores say something.

 

Pinning this loss on the US order of play is misguided, IMO.  Pinning it on DL3's failure to play Keegan Saturday afternoon, or picking Furyk/Stricker as Captain's picks, is more reasonable.  Still, there were reasonable justifications for all of those decisions at the time--it's pretty easy to second guess them now, but we're not there making those decisions.  (And BTW if he had picked Mahan, and Mahan got blanked, people would have been screaming about how stupid that was.)

 

I'm not happy at the US loss yesterday, but I don't look at it as a choke or a coaching blunder.  The Euro team stepped up and kicked bootay.  11 out of 12 US players would have (likely) posted scores 70 or worse.   8/12 Euros would have posted 70 or better.  I will remember this as a day that Euro came together and played some amazing golf, and ripped the Cup from our hands.

11 out of 12...that is a total team choke...or a team not prepaired. take your pick.

after watching the link of the post event press conference Phil looks just terrible. The best i can tell you he is a good and honest man at worst he is a total wuss. Bottom line at this point i don't see anyway Phil could ever be a captain pick in 14

"We put everything we had into that match" yea Phil all 11 holes of it!! I think DL3 needed to let Keegan be a big boy and use the bathroom alone if Phil was to old and tired to play.

Jimbo, Stevo and Phil are all out to pasture as far i am concerned. I would not even be willing to consider them for being a captain.