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2012 Ryder Cup Discussion Thread - Page 50

post #883 of 1058
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nosevi View Post

 

When Poults is fist pumping and his eyes are popping out of his head I get the feeling it's the inner passion coming to the surface. When the US team were stiring up the crowd I get the feeling they were trying to feel passionate about it. 

 

I agree that some of that stuff is forced and deliberate.  I think that Poults has something in his belly that not a lot of other players in the field have other than maybe Tiger and McIlroy.  It's a sort of embracing of intense pressure and a killer instinct.  Unfortunately for Poults, that hasn't translated into big wins on the big Tour or Majors, but bodes well for him here.

post #884 of 1058
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnhw2 View Post

I dont disagree with your view point at all. 

 

How is it Westwood, Kaymer and Hansen who came in not on form, managed to win on Sunday when the pressure was on? Is that just golf and the rub of the green? If sos how does one explain the significant lead in wins Euro has over the last few decades? I believe the teams are evenly matched talent wise and that adding Hunter or Rickie over Furyk and maybe even Stricker would not change the talent between team.... both are still even as I see it. So how do three players not on form play so well on Sunday in the bare nakedness of singles?

 

But this is just one event, rub of the green can explain it but take the last 10 RC's where Euro has out performed us in pressure with both teams equal in talent over this period? This is a trend...what is driving the trend? So you agree with DL3 that lowering the pressure on the players is the way to get the best from them?

 

Are you saying we put too high expectations on our teams over th past few decades and that is why  Euro has dominated us?  

OK, here's a thought - could be crap.

 

There is so much prevalence put on the Majors - and the players that don't win them. The pressure is on these guys more so as they get older to get one over the line. So when they don't do it, it's like...what's left? The Ryder Cup. In Europe, you really get defined (I think) more by your Ryder Cup play than in the US. Hence Montgomery is feted, Westwood, Donald, Poulter, Garcia, Rose...all fantastic players who have yet to get it over the line. And may not. But they are foreigners on a foreign tour, and I think they feel that. And I think they feel this. The majority of European team players have not won a major, the majority of the American team have. There's a point to prove, psychologically.

 

Of course, the golf I saw over the first two days was unbelievable from the US team, totally out-played the Europeans apart from a few players. But can you keep up this fabulous level for three days? Could be Europeans got their poor rounds out of the way and then re-grouped. It was still real close - 6 games went to 18th remember, and a few more got to the 17th. This was no walkover, regardless of the score.

 

Dustin Johnson is over here playing in the Dunhill this week - no idea how he's doing it. He must be knackered.

post #885 of 1058
Quote:
Originally Posted by bplewis24 View Post

I agree that some of that stuff is forced and deliberate.  I think that Poults has something in his belly that not a lot of other players in the field have other than maybe Tiger and McIlroy.  It's a sort of embracing of intense pressure and a killer instinct.  Unfortunately for Poults, that hasn't translated into big wins on the big Tour or Majors, but bodes well for him here.

Just smiling about the comment about wins on the "big Tour". If you don't know why I'm smiling you guys will continue to underestimate our golfers. Good you agree with the sentiment though. a1_smile.gif

And Dustin Johnson is tied 107th. Well it is a European Tour event so we should cut him some slack ........ :)
post #886 of 1058
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nosevi View Post


Just smiling about the comment about wins on the "big Tour". If you don't know why I'm smiling you guys will continue to underestimate our golfers. Good you agree with the sentiment though. a1_smile.gif
And Dustin Johnson is tied 107th. Well it is a European Tour event so we should cut him some slack ........ :)

a3_biggrin.gif

 

First time my friends and I went to the Masters, we had T-Shirts that said

 

'Augusta Masters - A European Tour Event'

 

We thought it was hilarious, some Americans didn't. Olazabal won that year.

post #887 of 1058

Originally Posted by Johnhw2 View Post

 

I dont disagree with your view point at all. 

 

How is it Westwood, Kaymer and Hansen who came in not on form, managed to win on Sunday when the pressure was on?

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Monte the Bear View Post

OK, here's a thought - could be crap.

 

There is so much prevalence put on the Majors - and the players that don't win them. The pressure is on these guys more so as they get older to get one over the line. So when they don't do it, it's like...what's left? The Ryder Cup. In Europe, you really get defined (I think) more by your Ryder Cup play than in the US. Hence Montgomery is feted, Westwood, Donald, Poulter, Garcia, Rose...all fantastic players who have yet to get it over the line. And may not. But they are foreigners on a foreign tour, and I think they feel that. And I think they feel this. The majority of European team players have not won a major, the majority of the American team have. There's a point to prove, psychologically.

 

Of course, the golf I saw over the first two days was unbelievable from the US team, totally out-played the Europeans apart from a few players. But can you keep up this fabulous level for three days? Could be Europeans got their poor rounds out of the way and then re-grouped. It was still real close - 6 games went to 18th remember, and a few more got to the 17th. This was no walkover, regardless of the score.

 

Dustin Johnson is over here playing in the Dunhill this week - no idea how he's doing it. He must be knackered.

 

Couple of points - Hanson didn't win, Kaymer struggled over the line against the worst performing player on the US team, Westwood hadn't been playing

great but he is the No.4 player in the world

 

There was arguably more core strength in the European team - 4 of the current Top 5 in the world, 4 players who have been ranked No. 1, Poulter who is probably the best matchplay player out there (not just from his Ryder Cup record). McIlroy, Donald, Poulter & Kaymer have all won or been runner up in the Accenture the last 3 years, Colesaerts, McDowell, Poulter and Donald have either won or been runner up in the Volvo in the last 2 years. None of the US team have been to a final in the last 3 years. Woods won it 3 times last in 2008 and Stricker won it in 2001 (for completedness Westwood and Garica both got to the final)

 

This particular bunch of Europeans just seems to be better matchplay players - the point about US picking match play players is well made on that evidence

 

On the issue of whether it means more in Europe the simple answer is yes - while obviously we have had a great run winning 7 of the last 9, which will inevitaly give it more exposure, I'm sure if you asked the majority of Eurpean golf fans (excl Irish) who they preferred between Harrington, Garica, Westwood, Poulter - Harrington would probably come bottom of that list but he is obviously the one with the greatest achievements

 

Since teh mid 80s we have produced a stream of great Ryder Cup players (of the current crop Donald and Poulters records rank with anyones) - th elast US player I can remember who seemd to have "European"attitude was maye Lanny Wadkins?

post #888 of 1058
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monte the Bear View Post

a3_biggrin.gif

First time my friends and I went to the Masters, we had T-Shirts that said

'Augusta Masters - A European Tour Event'

We thought it was hilarious, some Americans didn't. Olazabal won that year.

a3_biggrin.gif

Still don't think they get what I'm on about, mate.

It's a little like on a car forum I frequent. There was a bit of a debate on whether what some of us considered an aftermarket item was genuine, I thought it wasn't. Eventually one of the US guys triumphantly and smugly posted that he found out it had been made by Ferrari USA for it's customers so was genuine Ferrari. I laughed so hard I almost cried.

I truely think many US spectators think the PGA tour is the "big Tour". I just don't think they get it. Olli said that attitude is precisely why the Ryder Cup meant so much to Seve - the American players at the time looked down on European players - not my opinion, I have no idea, it's what Olli said in a documentary a few days ago. We've won 5 out of the last 6 Ryder Cups but we're still the little insignificant tour. Not an inferiority complex (mostly coz I don't think we're inferior) just find it a tad funny. Maybe after we win 6 out of 7 it'll start to sink in. a1_smile.gif
post #889 of 1058

I think we have to look at more than just the most recent RC to see where USA team is falling short. I consider any event with a strong field as a top event no matter which tour or which soil it is played upon. The RC results over a couple of decades is clear, Euro is simply better in RC and perhaps Match play. The questions is why and what can be done about it. I agree the US played lights our the first two days and argue they didnt play that well Sunday. If this was the only US loss the fix would be different than it is given there is a long term trend of losing by the USA. I think this time our young strong players, thrived in team format because they had a team mate to rely upon and motivate/claim them as needed. But when exposed to the pressure of man on man with out team mate to talk to or lean up for shots... our play slipped while Euro play was stronger overall. The question is why?

 

My "fix" proposal is to have a captain who is well respected but not seen as a buddy of some but not all players. He needs to lead.. not coordinate or manage. Lead means take them to levels they might not make on their own. JMO did that with Kaymer and others on Euro team. I didnt see it on US team.. I am not saying the US players werent focused or playing as hard as they could, I am saying their best didnt appear on Sunday to close the win. Why?

 

I think the US selection of team process needs to be considered for fix as well as the US approach to picking the next "deserving person based upon their playing record." What other major sport does this?  I would test each new Captain first as a Presidents cup  Capitain, then make him Ryder cup captain if he is deemd successful and have the right stuff for RC. We need to test players match play moxie the same way. This requres coordination between RC and President's cup organizers and may require the PGA Tour consider more Match play events.

 

This has been a trend and any fix needs to go far beyond the current Sunday loss to find a potential solution. Meanwhile team Euro wont be standing still so the hill we must climb gets higher!

post #890 of 1058
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nosevi View Post


Just smiling about the comment about wins on the "big Tour". If you don't know why I'm smiling you guys will continue to underestimate our golfers. Good you agree with the sentiment though. a1_smile.gif
And Dustin Johnson is tied 107th. Well it is a European Tour event so we should cut him some slack ........ :)

 

Nobody is underestimating the golfers that currently have 4 of the top 5 slots in the OGWR.  You're reading way too much into a single word.

post #891 of 1058
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nosevi View Post


a3_biggrin.gif
Still don't think they get what I'm on about, mate.
It's a little like on a car forum I frequent. There was a bit of a debate on whether what some of us considered an aftermarket item was genuine, I thought it wasn't. Eventually one of the US guys triumphantly and smugly posted that he found out it had been made by Ferrari USA for it's customers so was genuine Ferrari. I laughed so hard I almost cried.
I truely think many US spectators think the PGA tour is the "big Tour". I just don't think they get it. Olli said that attitude is precisely why the Ryder Cup meant so much to Seve - the American players at the time looked down on European players - not my opinion, I have no idea, it's what Olli said in a documentary a few days ago. We've won 5 out of the last 6 Ryder Cups but we're still the little insignificant tour. Not an inferiority complex (mostly coz I don't think we're inferior) just find it a tad funny. Maybe after we win 6 out of 7 it'll start to sink in. a1_smile.gif


Not sure what you mean by your tour. Are you talking about the tournaments themselves or the players because if you are saying the European Tour is more significant than the PGA Tour I can guarantee you that the European players don't even think that. The top players may play it out of loyalty but they have homes in the US and play most of the big tournaments over here. If you're talking about the players if Americans are underestimating guys like McDowell and McIlroy then they are fools.

post #892 of 1058
Quote:
Originally Posted by bplewis24 View Post

Nobody is underestimating the golfers that currently have 4 of the top 5 slots in the OGWR.  You're reading way too much into a single word.

Not really taking it as insulting or anything, like I said, made me smile is all. Ok maybe you're not one of them but many US fans DO see the PGA tour as the "big" tour in the same way that someone else commented that The Open Championship is only relevant because Arnold Palmers decided it was. I watch PGA tour golf as well as European Tour golf, our Sky sports covers both, but many American friends I have only really follow the PGA tour.

Jack Nicklaus said he saw more stars in the European team than the US team, I can see maybe 2 or 3 matches the US will win, he said, if they don't win those they're going to struggle. I guarantee he was not speaking for the majority of US fans. I do think the US underestimate the level of golf over in Europe but that's not really criticising, most don't watch it.

No hard feelings, I just think the American public focus on their own stars in sport. When it comes to golf the Ryder Cup is a straight scrap between the two tours, at least that's the idea. You (hopefully) get to see what our boys can do.

I guess my point would be Poults has got over the line on the big tour, numerous times in fact. Just not on your big tour is all. Not upset with anything you've said, it just demonstrated a point.
post #893 of 1058
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monte the Bear View Post

Sure. No problem with this. And thanks - we have our share of morons too. That said...

I'm so amazed at the perception that had Keegan Bradley played on Saturday, he would have won. I mean, Poulter got hot late on Saturday afternoon - I'm not sure anybody would have stayed with him. If Bradley did play, he may have disrupted a decent winning team - remember the US won two games that afternoon and the day 5-3. And FWIW I think Love was correct in giving everyone at least two rounds on that course and resting people.

And even then, if Bradley was so hot, why was he beaten by McIlroy, who only just got to the course in time to hit a few putts and not even warm up? Could it be that Bradley's pan had been flashed already?

Why the hate for Mickelson? His chip at 17 was unbelievable. He got done by three one putts coming down the stretch - shit happens.

Why isn't it that people have not turned on Bubba Watson for being no more than a cheerleader on Sunday? The course had NO rough on it, it was set up for him to smash it anywhere and get home. He choked. Why no hate for Snedeker, who choked? Why no hate for Simpson, who choked so badly, he shanked a ball!!??

Monday morning QB's...there ya go. DL3 is playing at the Shriners today - would assume he'll be hecked on the tee.

Next Ryder Cup captains - Justin Leonard and Paul McGinley.
Good points.

Of course you're right, the notion that Mickelson would surely have won on Sat afternoon is just silly; and good point about the risk of splitting a team with Bradley - something I suspect DL was concerned about. We'll never know of course.

Michelson hate: you would have to spend some time on this forum to come up with a hypothesis. I have one or two but won't essay them here. Certainly a subset of people exist on this forum who always find a way to criticize the guy - he can do no good. He sure isn't perfect but as you must know he's one of our better players (when he's on form) and HE HAS BOTTLE. He got beat by a series of spectacular putts, not by a late meltdown. His marvellous short game did NOT desert him.

Good points about Watson, Snedeker and Simpson. I was pretty disappointed I don't mind saying. All I can say is ..... Let's hope those guys have learned from this experience.

If they blame it on DL3 then it's likely to happen again and they will deserve it. But no, none of them are so stupid as to do that.
Edited by Chas - 10/4/12 at 1:43pm
post #894 of 1058
Quote:
Originally Posted by MSchott View Post


Not sure what you mean by your tour. Are you talking about the tournaments themselves or the players because if you are saying the European Tour is more significant than the PGA Tour I can guarantee you that the European players don't even think that. The top players may play it out of loyalty but they have homes in the US and play most of the big tournaments over here. If you're talking about the players if Americans are underestimating guys like McDowell and McIlroy then they are fools.

The top European players play the PGA Tour for one reason - money. Yes many have a loyalty to the European tour and many who play both tours have homes there because if they split their time between the tours it makes far more sence, what would be the point of having a home in England when your European Tour schedule has you playing in South Africa then the Middle East, then China, then Germany. Might as well stick to the country half your matches are in, don't you think.

I don't think the European tour is more important than the PGA tour, not at all. I just think over there the general concensus is the PGA tour is far more important than the European tour.
post #895 of 1058
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nosevi View Post


Not really taking it as insulting or anything, like I said, made me smile is all. Ok maybe you're not one of them but many US fans DO see the PGA tour as the "big" tour in the same way that someone else commented that The Open Championship is only relevant because Arnold Palmers decided it was. I watch PGA tour golf as well as European Tour golf, our Sky sports covers both, but many American friends I have only really follow the PGA tour.
Jack Nicklaus said he saw more stars in the European team than the US team, I can see maybe 2 or 3 matches the US will win, he said, if they don't win those they're going to struggle. I guarantee he was not speaking for the majority of US fans. I do think the US underestimate the level of golf over in Europe but that's not really criticising, most don't watch it.
No hard feelings, I just think the American public focus on their own stars in sport. When it comes to golf the Ryder Cup is a straight scrap between the two tours, at least that's the idea. You (hopefully) get to see what our boys can do.
I guess my point would be Poults has got over the line on the big tour, numerous times in fact. Just not on your big tour is all. Not upset with anything you've said, it just demonstrated a point.

I think you underestimate the serious US golf fans. Golf Channel covers Euro tour event each week, I am a big college golf fan (match play anyone?). Noren on the euro tour played college golf at my alma mater here so I am a fan of his as well as some other Euro tour men and ladies tour members. I agree your top players are outstanding, several played college golf over here, well I now Luke did dont recall the other 3 top players in college here but G Mac and Collin Mc did along with Peterson.

 

I find it interesting your tour run your RC efforts where the PGA not the tour run ours.

 

A couple of other un related thoughts... if current form is so important why do auto qualifiers in the US and OWGR look at results over 2 years? Could it be current form is over rated as  an indicator of how a golfer will play in next event?

 

When working, I played Walton Heath a few times.....nice couple of courses with a RC history too.

post #896 of 1058
But it's a generalization about sports fans in the U.S. vs Yurp that has a lot of truth - speaking from ~ 30 yrs sporting perspective on EACH side of the pond. It's understandable , but in golf it's much less of an issue and decreasing as the sport goes more and more global. I repeat my Loss-of-(golfing)Empire hypothesis - tough to take. How long did it take you guys to overcome it and fully accept the limitations of the Commonwealth? In the 60s it was still a sig. factor in the british psyche. Now, not so much. Main thing these days is not to sink into chaos with those suckers on the Continent.

Just MO.
post #897 of 1058
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnhw2 View Post

I think you underestimate the serious US golf fans. Golf Channel covers Euro tour event each week, I am a big college golf fan (match play anyone?). Noren on the euro tour played college golf at my alma mater here so I am a fan of his as well as some other Euro tour men and ladies tour members. I agree your top players are outstanding, several played college golf over here, well I now Luke did dont recall the other 3 top players in college here but G Mac and Collin Mc did along with Peterson.

I find it interesting your tour run your RC efforts where the PGA not the tour run ours.

A couple of other un related thoughts... if current form is so important why do auto qualifiers in the US and OWGR look at results over 2 years? Could it be current form is over rated as  an indicator of how a golfer will play in next event?

When working, I played Walton Heath a few times.....nice couple of courses with a RC history too.

Maybe you're right mate, maybe I am. A few throw away comments just gives that pression. Like I said, Jack Nicklaus thought you'd struggle in the singles. I could be wrong but 50 odd pages of "WHY!!!!" tells me it was a shock to most. (Me included, to a certain degree)

Regarding the qualifying I actually think there are far too many automatic places and not enough captain's picks. It's been pointed put that Stroke play and you would have had it. Both of our guys are almost entirely picked on stroke play performance but match play is a little different. I'd like to see more like 6 automatic, 6 captain's picks. As long as the captain picks well, of course! Interestingly I understand that match play is in fact the earliest form of scoring. Predates references to stroke play by quite a long time.

Regarding Walton Heath, not played it but heard good things. I play in Lincolnshire. My 'local' is quite good - the Hotchkin at Woodhall spa. Not hugely well known but the home of our English golf union. Any course where you have steps to climb out of the bunkers makes you think twice!
post #898 of 1058
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nosevi View Post


Maybe you're right mate, maybe I am. A few throw away comments just gives that pression. Like I said, Jack Nicklaus thought you'd struggle in the singles. I could be wrong but 50 odd pages of "WHY!!!!" tells me it was a shock to most. (Me included, to a certain degree)

 

One subtle point to make (speaking only for myself):

 

It would not (and did not) have shocked me if the Euros simply "won" the single's play; meaning they won the majority of points available that day.  I thought maybe they would outpoint us by a couple matches (let's say something like 6.5-5.5 or 7.0-5.0.  It WAS shocking that they thoroughly trounced us to the tune of, what, 8.5 points to 3.5 on the final day?  That's domination.

 

I didn't hear Jack's comments (I believe they were on the SKY programming?), but I wouldn't have disagreed with him.  When I saw the pairings I only had 3 hunches: Bubba would lose to Luke, Snedeker would win (Ha), and Dufner would win with ease.  I thought everything else was a toss-up, although I did expect Tiger to win his match.  

post #899 of 1058
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chas View Post

But it's a generalization about sports fans in the U.S. vs Yurp that has a lot of truth - speaking from ~ 30 yrs sporting perspective on EACH side of the pond. It's understandable , but in golf it's much less of an issue and decreasing as the sport goes more and more global. I repeat my Loss-of-(golfing)Empire hypothesis - tough to take. How long did it take you guys to overcome it and fully accept the limitations of the Commonwealth? In the 60s it was still a sig. factor in the british psyche. Now, not so much. Main thing these days is not to sink into chaos with those suckers on the Continent.
Just MO.

a1_smile.gif I agree about the common wealth thing.

I want to try to make myself clear though. What I said is an observation, not a huge criticism. I've lived much of my life in the states and my folks have had a place in Florida since. I'm not criticising a view of sport that says the PGA tour is more important, just asking "more important to who?"

I have had US golf fans say that 'we' should scrap The Open Championship (British Open) and make the Players the fourth Major. From a purely global point of view it could be argued that we should only have two Majors in the States (I'd argue the Masters and the US Open) keep The Open Championship where it is, and have the fourth Major in the Far East. A point of view that truely believes all of golf's Majors should be on US soil is just a tad inward looking. It's similar to the little phrase "big Tour" which I picked up on. Little phrase but does mean something in this context when talking about a player not getting across the line.

As I say, not a criticism, an observation. Till we loose holding The Open Championship as a Major, then my friends it would be one hell of a criticism a1_smile.gif
post #900 of 1058
Quote:
Originally Posted by bplewis24 View Post

One subtle point to make (speaking only for myself):

It would not (and did not) have shocked me if the Euros simply "won" the single's play; meaning they won the majority of points available that day.  I thought maybe they would outpoint us by a couple matches (let's say something like 6.5-5.5 or 7.0-5.0.  It WAS shocking that they thoroughly trounced us to the tune of, what, 8.5 points to 3.5 on the final day?  That's domination.

I didn't hear Jack's comments (I believe they were on the SKY programming?), but I wouldn't have disagreed with him.  When I saw the pairings I only had 3 hunches: Bubba would lose to Luke, Snedeker would win (Ha), and Dufner would win with ease.  I thought everything else was a toss-up, although I did expect Tiger to win his match.  

Yep was on Sky. Fair enough and honest comments. I don't think DL3 would have agreed though. On that program, when asked by our reporter, he said he could have thrown the names of your guys in the air and just see where they land. Confidence, bluster or delusional? Take your pick.
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