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Justa neewbie question regarding re-taking a stroke under penalty. - Page 2

post #19 of 28
2/4/13 at 7:56am
Thread Starter 

And after re-reading the posts (last question)

 

5. If a player hits it into a non-water hazard on the course, say a wooded area and there is certainty the ball landed in that area is there still an option to play a provisional ball given the ball may potentially be lost or unplayable? 
 

I think I'm not quite sure if a "Dry" Hazard and a  Water Hazard are  treated as the same thing? 

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post #20 of 28
2/4/13 at 9:58am
Quote:
Originally Posted by wedgehammer40k View Post

Well its been a while since I posted my original question and sure enough I've played in three competitions since and this issue arose on two occasions. 

My understanding after reading these posts and upon checking the rule book is that:
 

  • Rule 28 clearly states that a player may deem his/her ball unplayable at their own discretion -  unless their shot has clearly and unmistakably (with a loud splash) come to rest in a water hazard.
     
  • In the spirit of avoiding slow play, a player may announce and take a provisional shot when for example there is doubt as to whether a ball is lost, OB, or un-playable, but has not been clearly identified as having landed in a water hazard.
     
  • If the original shot is confirmed to be in a water hazard a player that  has taken a provisional must proceed under rule 26-1 and abandon their provisional.
     
  • Debate may arise as to the certainty of a shot having landed in a water hazard - and upon reaching a resolution the player proceeds either under 26-1 or 27-1 and continues play from their provisional.  
     

Quick Scenario
In one competition I elected to deem my ball unplayable (consulting with my marker) as I had teed off and the ball travelled about 1m so I decided that to re-tee the ball would be better than playing it from where it laid. After declaring the ball "unplayable" and as the original spot I took the stroke was the teeing area I proceeded under 27-1 (penalty of stroke and distance) and under rule 20-5 (the ball may be re-teed on the teeing ground) and basically had another crack hitting my third shot of the tee.

 

Some questions:
 

  1. Would the above be considered a "practice stroke" carrying a two stroke penalty if carding a score for a USGA handicap?
  2. Was the above determination within the rules? 
  3. If a ball lands in a Lateral Water Hazard is that the same as a Water Hazard?
  4. If a ball lands in a non-water hazard can the player who has taken a provisional proceed under 27-1 from his/her provisional? 


     

 

1.  It is not a practice stroke if the definition of stroke (the forward movement of the club with the intent to strike the ball) was met.

 

2.  Yes.  The player is solely responsible for determining his ball unplayable.

 

3.  Read the Definitions for water hazard and lateral water hazard, and Rule 26-1 for the specific differences.

 

There are only two types of hazards, water hazards (including lateral water hazards) and bunkers.  If you determine that your ball is unplayable in a bunker, you must proceed under Rule 28, but you must drop in the bunker unless you choose the stroke and distance option (Rule 28a).

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by wedgehammer40k View Post

And after re-reading the posts (last question)

 

5. If a player hits it into a non-water hazard on the course, say a wooded area and there is certainty the ball landed in that area is there still an option to play a provisional ball given the ball may potentially be lost or unplayable? 
 

I think I'm not quite sure if a "Dry" Hazard and a  Water Hazard are  treated as the same thing? 

 

See above for the answer.  The only "dry" hazard on the course is a bunker.  When you read the definition of a water hazard you will be able to answer your own question.  Just for your information, the course is the whole area within any boundaries as established by the committee.  It is broken down into four parts:  the teeing ground of the hole being played, the putting green of the hole being played, hazards (water, lateral water, and bunkers), and through the green.  Through the green is all areas of the course except the teeing ground and putting green of the hole being played and all hazards.  From that you can see that a wooded area is not a "dry hazard", nor is it a water hazard unless it meets the definition of a water hazard.  A water hazard may be dry at certain times of the year, or the margins may be marked well outside of the water course for the purpose of reasonable play, creating an area within the margin which is always dry, but it must contain a water course of some sort to meet the definition.  A wooded area which is not part of a water hazard is through the green, and the ball is played as it lies unless you proceed under an applicable Rule such as Rule 28 - Ball Unplayable.

 

Some courses will try to take the easy way out by declaring wooded areas as lateral water hazards, but this practice is specifically forbidden in the Rules of Golf.  A water hazard must meet the definition in the Rules of Golf to be so designated.

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post #21 of 28
2/4/13 at 1:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by wedgehammer40k View Post

Well its been a while since I posted my original question and sure enough I've played in three competitions since and this issue arose on two occasions. 

My understanding after reading these posts and upon checking the rule book is that:
 

  • Rule 28 clearly states that a player may deem his/her ball unplayable at their own discretion -  unless their shot has clearly and unmistakably (with a loud splash) come to rest in a water hazard.
  • True, however the ball must first be positively identified as yours.
     
  • In the spirit of avoiding slow play, a player may announce and take a provisional shot when for example there is doubt as to whether a ball is lost, OB, or un-playable, but has not been clearly identified as having landed in a water hazard.
  • Close.  A provisional may be played for a ball that is lost outside a water hazard, or may be out of bounds.  You can not play a provisional for a ball that may be un-playable. 
     
  • If the original shot is confirmed to be in a water hazard a player that  has taken a provisional must proceed under rule 26-1 and abandon their provisional.
  • Correct
     
  • Debate may arise as to the certainty of a shot having landed in a water hazard - and upon reaching a resolution the player proceeds either under 26-1 or 27-1 and continues play from their provisional.  
  • Correct
     

Quick Scenario
In one competition I elected to deem my ball unplayable (consulting with my marker) as I had teed off and the ball travelled about 1m so I decided that to re-tee the ball would be better than playing it from where it laid. After declaring the ball "unplayable" and as the original spot I took the stroke was the teeing area I proceeded under 27-1 (penalty of stroke and distance) and under rule 20-5 (the ball may be re-teed on the teeing ground) and basically had another crack hitting my third shot of the tee.

 

Some questions:
 

  1. Would the above be considered a "practice stroke" carrying a two stroke penalty if carding a score for a USGA handicap?
  2. No.
  3. Was the above determination within the rules? 
  4. Yes, but remember you can always invoke 27-1 and play your shot over following 20-5.  In this case you do not have to necessarily deem the ball unplayable and identify it.
  5. If a ball lands in a Lateral Water Hazard is that the same as a Water Hazard?
  6. Yes, however you have more options under 26-1 for a ball in a lateral hazard.
  7. If a ball lands in a non-water hazard can the player who has taken a provisional proceed under 27-1 from his/her provisional? 
  8. Not sure I understand the question.  If a player plays a shot that may be lost outside of a hazard, then yes he may play a provisional.  If he does not find the original ball, the provisional becomes the ball in play.  (Rule 27)


     

 

 

Edit:

 

I missed Fourputt's reply.  Sorry for some of the redundancy.

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post #22 of 28
2/4/13 at 2:02pm

Also, something I said wasn't quite accurate.  If the player wants to deem his ball unplayable and proceed under 28a (stroke and distance) he does not have to identify his ball.  Only if he wishes to proceed under 28b or 28c, must he first identify the ball.

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post #23 of 28
2/4/13 at 2:59pm
Thread Starter 
You cannot take a provisional when a ball is deemed unplayable.

So if you hit into an area that is in play but is not designated as a later water hazard, that is say a really rough area with rocks, tall grass etc. you've been there before and know the ball is not coming out but it's not lost. You can't save a walk back to the Tee by taking a provisional?

Is that explicitly covered by a rule or implied ie open interpretation?

Thanks for all the information.
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post #24 of 28
2/4/13 at 3:14pm
Thread Starter 
And just to be sure if I hit into a lateral water hazard, I cannot deem the ball unplayable as it meets the definition of water hazard as stipulated in rule. 28?
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post #25 of 28
2/4/13 at 3:16pm

A player may play a provisional ball any time that he believes his original ball may be lost outside a water hazard or may be out of bounds.  In the situation you describe, it is OK to play a provisional, but if your original ball is found within 5 minutes or is not out of bounds, you must abandon the provisional.  See Rule 27-2.

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post #26 of 28
2/4/13 at 3:19pm

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by wedgehammer40k View Post

And just to be sure if I hit into a lateral water hazard, I cannot deem the ball unplayable as it meets the definition of water hazard as stipulated in rule. 28?

Correct.

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post #27 of 28
2/4/13 at 3:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by wedgehammer40k View Post

You cannot take a provisional when a ball is deemed unplayable.

So if you hit into an area that is in play but is not designated as a later water hazard, that is say a really rough area with rocks, tall grass etc. you've been there before and know the ball is not coming out but it's not lost. You can't save a walk back to the Tee by taking a provisional?

Is that explicitly covered by a rule or implied ie open interpretation?

Thanks for all the information.

 

If you think your ball is in an area with rocks, tall grass etc then there is always a chance it may be lost so you can play a provisional. But if you get up to your first ball and find it, then your provisional is discarded immediately. So if you then decide that your first ball is unplayable, and you can't use one of the options to take a drop then you still have to go back to the tee even though you hit a provisional.

 

If you're certain that your first shot has gone into an area that you're not going to get back out of, just hit three from the tee. As soon as you hit another tee shot without declaring it a provisional, your first ball is out of play even if it is subsequently found.

 

Another option you have is to hit a provisional off the tee but not look too hard for your first ball. If you don't find your first ball lying in a good spot, don't look any further and move onto playing your provisional. However be aware that should anyone in your group spot a ball that may be your first ball, you must go over and identify it and if it is yours you then must abandon your provisional and continue with your first ball as above.

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post #28 of 28
2/4/13 at 4:47pm

Here is a good example of what Mordan is talking about.  The "ravine" was not marked as a hazard.  I remember in the telecast that Phil did not want anyone to look for his original ball.  He knew, if found, he would not be able to play it and his provisional was already in the fairway.  I believe a marshall found a ball, and Phil had to go over and identify it.  It turned out to be his, so he had to go back to the tee and play a ball under 28a which is stroke and distance.

 

http://www.usga.org/playing/rules/source/rules_ver1_hi.asx

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