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Getting fitted for putter (Scotty Cameron) - Page 2

post #19 of 43

Putter fitting to me is an enigmatic concept.  For tour pros, or anyone with skill, sufficient eye-hand coordination, and practice, you should be able to perform with almost any putter.  The stroke itself is, at extremes, only about 3 feet long.  

 

The fitting can, I suppose, make up for some of the deficiencies in those areas.  I would guess that with proper, focused practice, you can eventually train yourself to see the line exactly where the ball begins, and learn what your sight biases are with any putter.  That's how Jack, Arnie, and guys before lasers learned how to putt extremely well.  Edel tries to achieve the same result by matching the putter to the golfer, so that the putter lines up where we think it is.

 

Most of us don't have that level of skill and coordination, and don't practice enough to putt like a tour pro.  So, if we can get a putter that eliminates our sight biases (i.e. naturally lines up on the exact lines we see standing over the ball) then you can improve without all that practice.  And, if it works, why wouldn't a tour pro--whose livelihood depends on putting well--take advantage of it?

 

The weighting doesn't make much sense to me though.  You have to practice feel and pace on the greens.  Whether you're using a heavy putter or a light putter, you still have to train your body how hard to swing the club to achieve a specific pace on your putts.  For some, "heavier" or "lighter" might feel more comfortable, but beyond that I think whatever weight you choose is irrelevant until you can turn that weight into a proper pace.

 

I'll add that I see a lot of really bad putting form out on the course.  You have to get your eyes directly over the ball, for starters--that way the line you're looking down is the same line you're putting on.  Most bad putters I see (and bad golfers) have the toe up in the air, and their eyes are over their toes rather than over the ball (so they're looking down a line parallel to the putting line, offset by a couple feet). That injects a perspective angle into the equation that is completely unnecessary.  Then there's the simple act of setting up square, which few people do (except on tour, of course).  Then there's ball position:  front foot, back foot, middle, and everywhere in between.  At a minimum ball position should always be the same, but ideally a few inches forward of center.  

 

Putting is really pretty simple if you do those three things.  And a "fitted" putter is only going to fix tiny percentages.  It won't do anything about the huge flaws in setup that I see killing most folks on the greens.

post #20 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by newtogolf View Post

I'm not trying to derail this thread or knock putter fittings but did Hogan, Jack, Arnie and Seve all get fitted for their putter and didn't tell anyone?  

 

They got fitted for their equipment, but they did it the old fashioned way - they kept trying different clubs until they found the one they liked.    Have you ever seen the club collection of someone like Arnie (pictured below)?  

 

post #21 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by k-troop View Post

Putter fitting to me is an enigmatic concept.  For tour pros, or anyone with skill, sufficient eye-hand coordination, and practice, you should be able to perform with almost any putter.  The stroke itself is, at extremes, only about 3 feet long.  

 

The fitting can, I suppose, make up for some of the deficiencies in those areas.  I would guess that with proper, focused practice, you can eventually train yourself to see the line exactly where the ball begins, and learn what your sight biases are with any putter.  That's how Jack, Arnie, and guys before lasers learned how to putt extremely well.  Edel tries to achieve the same result by matching the putter to the golfer, so that the putter lines up where we think it is.

 

Most of us don't have that level of skill and coordination, and don't practice enough to putt like a tour pro.  So, if we can get a putter that eliminates our sight biases (i.e. naturally lines up on the exact lines we see standing over the ball) then you can improve without all that practice.  And, if it works, why wouldn't a tour pro--whose livelihood depends on putting well--take advantage of it?

 

The weighting doesn't make much sense to me though.  You have to practice feel and pace on the greens.  Whether you're using a heavy putter or a light putter, you still have to train your body how hard to swing the club to achieve a specific pace on your putts.  For some, "heavier" or "lighter" might feel more comfortable, but beyond that I think whatever weight you choose is irrelevant until you can turn that weight into a proper pace.

 

I'll add that I see a lot of really bad putting form out on the course.  You have to get your eyes directly over the ball, for starters--that way the line you're looking down is the same line you're putting on.  Most bad putters I see (and bad golfers) have the toe up in the air, and their eyes are over their toes rather than over the ball (so they're looking down a line parallel to the putting line, offset by a couple feet). That injects a perspective angle into the equation that is completely unnecessary.  Then there's the simple act of setting up square, which few people do (except on tour, of course).  Then there's ball position:  front foot, back foot, middle, and everywhere in between.  At a minimum ball position should always be the same, but ideally a few inches forward of center.  

 

Putting is really pretty simple if you do those three things.  And a "fitted" putter is only going to fix tiny percentages.  It won't do anything about the huge flaws in setup that I see killing most folks on the greens.

A pro can perform with almost any putter - seriously?

 

Have you seen the crap they roll out? Huge Creatures with eyes and metal crisscrossing the green in an effort to prevent twisting so they can make putts like the erstwhile 5-9 footers that drove Tom Watson from the stratosphere and into a personal hell.

 

Weighting doesn't make sense - seriously? Making your body fit the weight - seriously?


Why?

 

Why make compensations?

 

The game is tough enough...

 

 

Pros sticking handles in their bellies, standing upright with the butt against their chests

 

Saw grips, left hand low, etc., etc.

 

 

Okay, okay, I should go back to 38-40 putts per round. Yes, that is the answer!! Thank you!

 

Not.

 

I'll stick with mostly 2 putts, a handful of 1 putts, and the crap, 3 putt per round. And I don't play as much right now...

post #22 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by newtogolf View Post

I'm not trying to derail this thread or knock putter fittings but did Hogan, Jack, Arnie and Seve all get fitted for their putter and didn't tell anyone?  

 

Maybe a 6 handicap is good enough at reading greens and has a consistent enough stroke that a detailed custom fitting will show some putting improvement.  It seems like even the pro's miss a high number of putts that you'd expect them to make and they have the greens mapped, top notch equipment and are likely custom fit for their putters. 

 

Ben Hogan and Arnold Palmer were relatively terrible putters. Palmer was obssessed with tinkering with all his equipment. He might not have had a "fitting" but he likely tried every type of putter available at the time. Times have changed.  Oh and Jack was an amazing putter who worked very hard at it and Seve was an artist who could likely have won the Masters putting with 3-wood.

post #23 of 43
Quote:
Isn't a whole part of the idea of Edel putting fitting that the way people air is hugely affected by the shape of a putter? I suppose if you're fit for an Anser shape and then buy an Anser shape, but even then you're risking things like the weight being wildly different.

If you keep it within a putter head type and head balance range, then it will be very close.  My fitter (a top 100 per Golf Digest) said as much.  My putters are all Anser type (one is an Anser) and toe down about 4 o'clock.  My aim was a the same for all three per the fitting.  He adjusted the lie and loft for my stroke and forward lean.  None of the putters cost me more than $95 on e-bay or a used putter bin.

 

I haven't done an Edel fitting, but my putting has been very consistent this year since the fitting and AimPoint.  If you go for very different types of heads, then it may be significantly different.

post #24 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clambake View Post

 

They got fitted for their equipment, but they did it the old fashioned way - they kept trying different clubs until they found the one they liked.    Have you ever seen the club collection of someone like Arnie (pictured below)?  

 

 

That should be on hoarders. Even if he used a different putter every round then threw it away, he's got enough putters to play for 50 years.

post #25 of 43

Instead of quoting from the Book of Edel and making asinine exaggerated statements, why don't you tell us how many fewer strokes you make putting now that you have had your Edel fitting. 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Desmond View Post

Let's get rid of all fitting. Heck, we only use a driver 12-14X per round, max, the irons - 18X, Wedges - hey, it's just a high lofted club, who needs a fitting? The Putter? We'll that's a precise instrument in comparison - why get it fit? 

 

I don't understand your argument - purchase barrels of clubs from which to choose (the old days) based on an attractive shape or what your buddies are buying, or purchase one putter that works for you based on a competent analysis and fitting (technical analysis).

post #26 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by newtogolf View Post

Instead of quoting from the Book of Edel and making asinine exaggerated statements, why don't you tell us how many fewer strokes you make putting now that you have had your Edel fitting. 

Okay - simmer down, don't take it personally. We're trying to have fun here ... I did say in one of my posts - thanks for putting up with me being ridiculous... just channeling my inner Jack Black...

 

It's okay ... take no offense, please. See, I won't turn this into a pissing contest Let's talk golf.

 

I'm just trying to save the guy money by purchasing one putter instead of 30  over his life. Spend once or twice right - and that's it.  Of course, some ho's will use any excuse so they can continue their habit. I'm sure you're not one of those... but the point is we have scientific tools designed to make a tough game easier - why not make it easier?

 

We don't need 4 degrees of loft any longer unless you forward press - greens are better maintained and shorter - 2-2.5 typically works if neutral.

 

If you know a little you can get fit for any putter - the Edel fitting is much more extensive - depends on what you want. SeeMore has a triangular aid to help you find a putter that you aim straight. If one has an arc stroke, one should look at toe hang putters. Ping has a fitting tool to help.

 

AND in the interests of advancing the thread, it is BEST if you have sound fundamentals or at least a consistent setup and stroke - if you use the same stroke fundamentals every time, it's easier to fit. That is what I did - took lessons from a PGA Tour Putting Guru who taught great fundamentals so you were neutral, worked on fundamentals for 6 months to a year and then was more extensively fit. 

 

I found out the anser style head with some modification, no offset, middle sight lines, and a lot of toe hang was best for me in terms of aim. I went to a round putter grip with no taper and find it very comfortable and helpful.

 

Good luck out there, guys.

post #27 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Desmond View Post

A pro can perform with almost any putter - seriously?

Have you seen the crap they roll out? Huge Creatures with eyes and metal crisscrossing the green in an effort to prevent twisting so they can make putts like the erstwhile 5-9 footers that drove Tom Watson from the stratosphere and into a personal hell.

Weighting doesn't make sense - seriously? Making your body fit the weight - seriously?


Why?

Why make compensations?

The game is tough enough...


Pros sticking handles in their bellies, standing upright with the butt against their chests

Saw grips, left hand low, etc., etc.


Okay, okay, I should go back to 38-40 putts per round. Yes, that is the answer!! Thank you!

Not.

I'll stick with mostly 2 putts, a handful of 1 putts, and the crap, 3 putt per round. And I don't play as much right now...

Not sure what, if anything, you said in this post.
post #28 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by newtogolf View Post

I'm not sure I see the parallel between off-season workouts and putter fitting.  As an aside, other than Hank Aaron who probably didn't work out as hard as Mike Trout in the offseason and a roided Barry Bonds, no one has broken the Bambino's HR record so maybe there is something to not over training. 

Back to golf, my point was the pro's aren't putting that much better today than they were back in Hogan, Arnie, Jack and even early Tiger's days before all this custom club fitting became so popular and "required".  If you tell me the greens were easier to putt on back then I might buy that, but otherwise, where's all the saved strokes from custom putter fitting?   

I matters because, despite the numbers put up and records broken by the old way of doing things, people have found better and easier ways of training people to get ready for a baseball season, just as people have found better and easier ways to find a putter that fits, no matter how well Hogan, Seve, Nicklaus, etc. could putt the old way.
post #29 of 43

I don't want anyone to spend money needlessly which is why I asked how they helped you.  Let's be realistic, golf manufacturers are at the point where products are evolutionary not revolutionary, so it appears they've all jumped onto the fiting band wagon.  Where as 10 years ago you just bought a driver or putter off the rack, you now should be fit for one. 

 

I get the science, but beyond the science there needs to be tangible results which is what I was looking for from you.  So in the end how many strokes do you believe the Edel putter saves you per round? 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Desmond View Post

Okay - simmer down, don't take it personally. We're trying to have fun here ... I did say in one of my posts - thanks for putting up with me being ridiculous... just channeling my inner Jack Black...

 

It's okay ... take no offense, please. See, I won't turn this into a pissing contest Let's talk golf.

 

I'm just trying to save the guy money by purchasing one putter instead of 30  over his life. Spend once or twice right - and that's it.  Of course, some ho's will use any excuse so they can continue their habit. I'm sure you're not one of those... but the point is we have scientific tools designed to make a tough game easier - why not make it easier?

 

We don't need 4 degrees of loft any longer unless you forward press - greens are better maintained and shorter - 2-2.5 typically works if neutral.

 

If you know a little you can get fit for any putter - the Edel fitting is much more extensive - depends on what you want. SeeMore has a triangular aid to help you find a putter that you aim straight. If one has an arc stroke, one should look at toe hang putters. Ping has a fitting tool to help.

 

AND in the interests of advancing the thread, it is BEST if you have sound fundamentals or at least a consistent setup and stroke - if you use the same stroke fundamentals every time, it's easier to fit. That is what I did - took lessons from a PGA Tour Putting Guru who taught great fundamentals so you were neutral, worked on fundamentals for 6 months to a year and then was more extensively fit. 

 

I found out the anser style head with some modification, no offset, middle sight lines, and a lot of toe hang was best for me in terms of aim. I went to a round putter grip with no taper and find it very comfortable and helpful.

 

Good luck out there, guys.

post #30 of 43

This conversation has quickly deteriorated.

 

The putter is the most important club in your bag. Don't believe me, play a round without a driver, then another round without a putter. In which round do you think you would score better? And let's leave pros out of the conversation for a minute. They are highly skilled and adaptable golfers, we are not. I once watched David Toms hit a junior driver (short whippy shaft and all) about 275 on the practice range at Southern Trace. My point pros can adapt very easily.

 

On the other hand, we all have to work our hardest when putting or driving, or whatever, to make sure that our technique is as good as it can be. Why not have a putter that makes that a bit easier?

post #31 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by geauxforbroke View Post

This conversation has quickly deteriorated.

 

The putter is the most important club in your bag. Don't believe me, play a round without a driver, then another round without a putter. In which round do you think you would score better? And let's leave pros out of the conversation for a minute. They are highly skilled and adaptable golfers, we are not. I once watched David Toms hit a junior driver (short whippy shaft and all) about 275 on the practice range at Southern Trace. My point pros can adapt very easily.

 

On the other hand, we all have to work our hardest when putting or driving, or whatever, to make sure that our technique is as good as it can be. Why not have a putter that makes that a bit easier?

 

I encourage people to putt with a long iron or a very old blade putter (not an Anser like blade, but a real blade) before buying a new putter, whether they get a fitting or not. It's not hard with a grooved stroke (proper path hitting ball on COG) to decide whether or not the putters off the shelf are right enough. Can't find one? Get fit. I just recently went back to a putter that I'd spent a whole season trying to find. Then it didn't work all of a sudden. I went back to basics and now it's money. Whatever flatstick a person ends up with, they need to work on maintaining the "natural" stroke they used during the fitting or demo.

post #32 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by newtogolf View Post

I don't want anyone to spend money needlessly which is why I asked how they helped you.  Let's be realistic, golf manufacturers are at the point where products are evolutionary not revolutionary, so it appears they've all jumped onto the fiting band wagon.  Where as 10 years ago you just bought a driver or putter off the rack, you now should be fit for one. 

 

I get the science, but beyond the science there needs to be tangible results which is what I was looking for from you.  So in the end how many strokes do you believe the Edel putter saves you per round? 

Great question -

 

Golf is a game of confidence.

 

Knowing it is you and not the stick  points the finger where it belongs -- at the golfer.

 

Knowing if you stick to good fundamentals, read the green correctly, and that you've got the putter fit to you - gives loads of confidence.

 

You put all of that together, and you're making putts.

 

I was once so frustrated, I'd gak 4-6 footers all the time. I once counted 40 putts, and I'd have 36 putts regularly. I am a decent athlete with soft hands and sufficiently analytical to read a green and stick to a routine - so I'd buy another putter. Guys called me "Money" because they'd collect mine.

 

I finally said "eff it."

 

I got Zach Johnson's guy, who was in town, and went to him. I was bagging a SeeMore mFGP. I was better, but not good enough. I went to the Edel fitting, and discovered I was aiming the mFGP - a center shaft, no offset putter  - to the left and high. Apparently, I was compensating on the ones I did make, or like a blind squirrel, I screwed up my line to the right to make some putts. So the fitter tried several heads and sight lines, but the Anser with a slight indentation, center sight line, heel shafted, no offset and 1 deg, worked well - aimed it straight. Then we worked on lagging for shaft flex, and counterbalancing, and weight, etc. My son, who was 17 at the time, and also using a mFGP, was fitted with a similar Anser head but needed more sight lines to get him aiming straight, and his length was slightly shorter than mine, his counterweights were different, too.

 

To answer your question, I'm thinking that I hole 3-4 putts over the SeeMore after my initial improvement. I hole more 4-12 footers, lip more frequently, and my speed on 15/18 holes is usually great. I did some early AimPoint video that David Orr did, and that helped green reading. 

 

I have a variable weight and loft putter but I rarely change it after 3 years - I'm dialed in, although if the greens are too shaggy or super fast, I will go up or down in loft.

 

But I took more of a holistic approach to putting -  I trashed what I was doing, and changed everything - the mental, physical, green reading, and equipment. And I purchased the Pat O'Brien video to save money for a review of fundamentals. And I don't need to buy more putters, although the basic Edel with a Pixl Insert has caught my interest.a2_wink.gif

 

All I've got to do now is take AimPoint classes.

post #33 of 43

Thanks, 3-4 putts is pretty significant.   I know I'm not a great putter but when I miss putts it's hard to tell if it's the putter, the stroke or poor green reading skills so that's why I was curious how big a difference the Edel made.   I don't want my garage or basement to look like Arnies. 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Desmond View Post

Great question -

 

Golf is a game of confidence.

 

To answer your question, I'm thinking that I hole 3-4 putts over the SeeMore after my initial improvement. I hole more 4-12 footers, lip more frequently, and my speed on 15/18 holes is usually great. I did some early AimPoint video that David Orr did, and that helped green reading. 

 

I have a variable weight and loft putter but I rarely change it after 3 years - I'm dialed in, although if the greens are too shaggy or super fast, I will go up or down in loft.

 

But I took more of a holistic approach to putting -  I trashed what I was doing, and changed everything - the mental, physical, green reading, and equipment. And I purchased the Pat O'Brien video to save money for a review of fundamentals. And I don't need to buy more putters, although the basic Edel with a Pixl Insert has caught my interest.a2_wink.gif

 

All I've got to do now is take AimPoint classes.

post #34 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by newtogolf View Post

Thanks, 3-4 putts is pretty significant.   I know I'm not a great putter but when I miss putts it's hard to tell if it's the putter, the stroke or poor green reading skills so that's why I was curious how big a difference the Edel made.   I don't want my garage or basement to look like Arnies. 

 

Hope it helps.

 

I don't have a large garage and need a garage sale - I tried to do the "Arnie" thing - it didn't work for me.z7_no.gif

 

Plus, one must try to keep the wallet happy.

 

I do take a holistic approach and try to eliminate variables - equipment that is properly fit allows you to concentrate on the stroke or green reading skills - because you know it's not the putter. And that improves your putting.

post #35 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by newtogolf View Post

I don't want my garage or basement to look like Arnies. 

 

I saw Arnie's garage on some golf channel show...it looked like a nice garage, and he has a lot of cool golf gear.  I don't think that would be such a bad thing.

post #36 of 43

Point well taken. I guess if Arnie was given the clubs for free that's one thing but to spend / waste all that money on clubs that you won't ever play again seems a bit too wasteful for me unless you're a collector.  I don't mind spending money on clubs, I actually enjoy it, but even I have my limits. 

Quote:
Originally Posted by k-troop View Post

 

I saw Arnie's garage on some golf channel show...it looked like a nice garage, and he has a lot of cool golf gear.  I don't think that would be such a bad thing.

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